Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Where in the Word is a decision demanded and where is it shown that decision determines salvation?
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I've Made a Decision
- Thread starter Internet Theologian
- Start date
If you've been unable to glean this simple truth from Scripture, then your eyes are blinded to the truth and there is no truth in you.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Oh, so you're saying I'm lost. I get it. Any other Finney beliefs I should propagate in order to have the 'truth' in me?
It doesn't determine salvation. Only God determines salvation. But we are told to repent and believe. We are told to choose life. We are even told to choose this day whom we will serve. My point is that there is a sense of human responsibility. God, however, is the author of that faith.
Well, I have a little time on my hands so I will jump in with both feet. 
Most of those involved in this thread know where I stand on Soteriology. I am a Particular Baptist. I believe in Particular Redemption. I believe Christ saved me on the cross and nothing more, that I could add, is required for my salvation. I believe God is Sovereign in salvation (just like everything else). I accept, without apology, the 5 Heads of Doctrine of the Canons of the Synod of Dordt.
I reject Finneyesque Decisionism.
However, when taken on an individual basis, when a person "walks the aisle" or "goes forward" or "prays the sinner's prayer" aren't they, by so doing, demonstrating that they have already come to Christ for salvation, and already believe on Him and His finished work, and accept Him as Savior and Lord?
Now, I will be the first to agree that some will come with ulterior motives intending to deceive others, but I would think they are in the vast minority of those who respond to a Billy Graham type of "invitation."
Salvation is of the Lord. And salvation makes a change in a person's heart, mind, and life. So, could it not be that the evidence of that change of heart, mind, and life is first demonstrated by "walking the aisle" or "going forward" or "praying the sinner's prayer?"
I don't think one needs to be a theologian to be saved. I don't think a person needs to understand the differences between Dicisionism and Sovereignty in salvation in order to be saved.
I do believe the born again child of God is indwelt by the Holy Spirit who will lead that person into all truth, including the truth of the Sovereignty of God in salvation. But we all grow at different rates. Some learn one thing before learning another. I believe all the saved will, one day, understand that Salvation is of the Lord. I believe all the saved will, one day, understand the Sovereignty of God in salvation. Some will come to that truth early and some will come to that truth later. Some will not come to that truth until they stand before the Lord and He lovingly explains "It was all about Me, not about you."
Until then I believe it is counter productive to accuse those on the other side of the aisle (pun intended) of being lost because they disagree with our understanding of biblical soteriology.
Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Most of those involved in this thread know where I stand on Soteriology. I am a Particular Baptist. I believe in Particular Redemption. I believe Christ saved me on the cross and nothing more, that I could add, is required for my salvation. I believe God is Sovereign in salvation (just like everything else). I accept, without apology, the 5 Heads of Doctrine of the Canons of the Synod of Dordt.
I reject Finneyesque Decisionism.
However, when taken on an individual basis, when a person "walks the aisle" or "goes forward" or "prays the sinner's prayer" aren't they, by so doing, demonstrating that they have already come to Christ for salvation, and already believe on Him and His finished work, and accept Him as Savior and Lord?
Now, I will be the first to agree that some will come with ulterior motives intending to deceive others, but I would think they are in the vast minority of those who respond to a Billy Graham type of "invitation."
Salvation is of the Lord. And salvation makes a change in a person's heart, mind, and life. So, could it not be that the evidence of that change of heart, mind, and life is first demonstrated by "walking the aisle" or "going forward" or "praying the sinner's prayer?"
I don't think one needs to be a theologian to be saved. I don't think a person needs to understand the differences between Dicisionism and Sovereignty in salvation in order to be saved.
I do believe the born again child of God is indwelt by the Holy Spirit who will lead that person into all truth, including the truth of the Sovereignty of God in salvation. But we all grow at different rates. Some learn one thing before learning another. I believe all the saved will, one day, understand that Salvation is of the Lord. I believe all the saved will, one day, understand the Sovereignty of God in salvation. Some will come to that truth early and some will come to that truth later. Some will not come to that truth until they stand before the Lord and He lovingly explains "It was all about Me, not about you."
Until then I believe it is counter productive to accuse those on the other side of the aisle (pun intended) of being lost because they disagree with our understanding of biblical soteriology.
Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Only the elect will repent and belief is evidence of salvation, repentance is granted to the elect. It appears you believe this as well, particularly the faith piece? The other passages you allude to (Dt. 30:19 & Joshua 24:15 I'm assuming) are those offers of eternal life based on if the person does those things or could it be something other?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
I still ask jonc, where is a decision demanded, and this decision you speak of is pregnant with implications of determining salvation.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
The preacher promised me, no matter what, I am going to heaven when I die. I said the prayer and believed the prayer.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to live for the Lord. He is savior, but not Lord.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to read Scripture or pray, or even have a desire to do so.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to love my neighbor as myself (take a look around, you'll see this in how some welcome and treat others right here) for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to live a life of holiness and sanctification, that's just another decision anyhow, they taught me I can be a believer or a disciple, it is all up to me, and after all I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to pray or even feel like praying, for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- I don't have to have any desire to know or walk with God, for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- So it is OK for me to tell lies and misrepresent what others have said, for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- Now I know I don't have to go to church, I don't even have any desire to attend to where the Bride of Christ gathers, I don't like her anyhow, nor do I want to be around her, but I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- So don't bother me with that Scripture stuff that shows what a genuine conversion looks like and a false one, I don't want to know! After all I am going to heaven.
(Gee after all of that, I wonder, if, when I get to heaven I will even like it there, I mean God will be there and those Christian people) Meh, that doesn't matter either. Don't think logically, theologically, or biblically and examine self, self, stop that! Yes, I made a decision and am going to heaven.
Above is the OP just as a reminder and to brush up on. THAT is what I have a problem with, and no matter how many want to deny it, it is what is taught, some of it on here, a lot of it in churches. Many have been bamboozled into this system unawares, and most of it comes from DTS and its proponents.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to live for the Lord. He is savior, but not Lord.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to read Scripture or pray, or even have a desire to do so.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to love my neighbor as myself (take a look around, you'll see this in how some welcome and treat others right here) for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to live a life of holiness and sanctification, that's just another decision anyhow, they taught me I can be a believer or a disciple, it is all up to me, and after all I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- Now I don't have to pray or even feel like praying, for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- I don't have to have any desire to know or walk with God, for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- So it is OK for me to tell lies and misrepresent what others have said, for I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- Now I know I don't have to go to church, I don't even have any desire to attend to where the Bride of Christ gathers, I don't like her anyhow, nor do I want to be around her, but I am going to heaven.
I've made a decision:
- So don't bother me with that Scripture stuff that shows what a genuine conversion looks like and a false one, I don't want to know! After all I am going to heaven.
(Gee after all of that, I wonder, if, when I get to heaven I will even like it there, I mean God will be there and those Christian people) Meh, that doesn't matter either. Don't think logically, theologically, or biblically and examine self, self, stop that! Yes, I made a decision and am going to heaven.
Above is the OP just as a reminder and to brush up on. THAT is what I have a problem with, and no matter how many want to deny it, it is what is taught, some of it on here, a lot of it in churches. Many have been bamboozled into this system unawares, and most of it comes from DTS and its proponents.
No, salvation is not based on doing something/anything. Those things are descriptive of salvation. I do think that we agree, although we may be looking at things a bit differently.
Man deciding to be saved is not something that I am implying, rather that is something you infer from my poor choice of words. What I mean is that we do decide to follow Christ, we do incline an ear towards God, not to be saved but because we are saved. I don't think that we can say God saved us and then we believed (neither can we say we believed and then God saved us).
Anyway, my words are not pregnant and I do take offense to that remark. They are just fat from the holidays.
I share your sentiments.
Notice this "person" said..."And I believed that prayer..." it's the object of Faith that makes all the difference.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
No problem brother. All this time the OP was about decisional salvation, and you were talking post evidence! No biggie!No, salvation is not based on doing something/anything. Those things are descriptive of salvation. I do think that we agree, although we may be looking at things a bit differently. Man deciding to be saved is not something that I am implying, rather that is something you infer from my poor choice of words. What I mean is that we do decide to follow Christ, we do incline an ear towards God, not to be saved but because we are saved. I don't think that we can say God saved us and then we believed (neither can we say we believed and then God saved us).
Anyway, my words are not pregnant and I do take offense to that remark. They are just fat from the holidays.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
And the Granter of faith, Php. 1:23; and the Author of faith. Hebrews 12:2. Brother JonShaff there are some on here who teach the things contained within the OP by the way. I call their gospel 'the casual gospel'.
I call it no gospel at all
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
I concur which is why I used the lower case 'g'.
I have some material for a thread on the casual gospel.
I assume DTS would mean Dallas Theological Seminary.
Would you post how DTS "bamboozles?"
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This is a well-thought-out answer, possibly the best post in the thread.
It is odd that the idea of making a decision is so opposed by some people. It's right there in Scripture:
Joshua 24:15--"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
For the readers that may not understand:
The problem with humankind choosing righteous, is that all Scripture evidence shows that such choosing inevitably ends up as only the best of what is offered to the unregenerate. So it was with the offering of Joshua. The people "chose" but such decision lasted only as long as Joshua lived. There was no real change and no choice involving a lasting determination of the dedication to God, and much less the eternal state of those folks.
There is no ability within the humankind to choose that which is righteous (speaking soteriologically) unless God has accomplished the work.
The Scriptures state:
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9)
A person who is not called cannot, by any authority of their own effort, choose that which is righteous. One may choose what is RIGHT, but that does not make the person or the choice righteous.
Sorry, brother, this is pure speculation. There is nothing in the text of Joshua to back this up. In fact, just the opposite is in the text in v. 31: "And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel."
Who has not made a decision that has completely changed his life? Deciding which college to go to, deciding who to marry, deciding what profession to enter--all of these are life changers.
In Biblical Greek terms, repentance is a decision, a fundamental change of mind which leads to a change of action. This is not to say that faith (a gift of God) is not necessary, but only to say that there is a human component.
This is essentially correct, but it does not preclude a human decision as a part of salvation. The believer gives the Gospel, the Holy Spirit then convicts of sin, enabling the decision, the lost person decides to believe in Christ, and the Holy Spirit regenerates, making the righteous life possible in the resurrection power of Christ through the Holy Spirit.
The missing element in such discussions is often the work of the Holy Spirit, something men like Spurgeon and Torrey and Rice understood very well. So often these discussions take place without a single mention of the work of the Holy Spirit. He convicts, but then the decision must take place to either accept, or resist.
The OP is the epitome of a straw man argument. It is actually opposing antinomianism rather than decision-making in salvation.