I've Made a Decision

[JonShaff]

Keep in mind the Biblical language expressed in the text above is contrasting post conversion relationship and behavior with pre conversion relationship and behavior; 'know not God'; 'obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ' with the opposite being true only for the converted. That said it would be incorrect to say this verse proves Gospel/Christ rejection.

Obeying the *Portion* of the Gospel that calls one to Be Holy (the Gospel Instantly makes one Holy as they Have Christ within them (Gal. 2:20) and we are given a *directive to "Work out our salvation with Fear and Trembling...it is God who works in me...") cannot be the overarching theme as you describe. Paul has wrote to the Corinthians about devouring Each, sinning, and not being obedient to the Gospel call of Holy Living. The primary responsibility that man has towards God is obeying the Gospel call...It is to be believed...and only after regeneration is it able to be Obeyed for Sanctification.

 

[agedman]

Do you think John wrote In relationship to order(Sequence) of events?

John1:9-
Received Christ

Those who Received Christ, Believed/Faithed/Trusted in HIM (becuase of the Light of the Gospel) He "Granted them Right" to become Children of God...Grace, Grace, and MOre grace...

Even to who? Those who Believed on His name (Already happened to receive Christ and be born again)

Who caused this Supernatural EVENT To Occur? GOD. This event is NOT BELEIVING, but BECOME A CHILD OF GOD....Grace, Grace Grace..I Can't make myself become a child of God...No tithes, no offerings, no church attendance no prayer or fasting...but GOD causes me to be born again...How? By Grace Through Faith. IN God's Sovereignty, He has given me the Ability to Choose Him or Reject Him....

Perhaps you have strained and tripped over "receive."

It is often assumed that the word carries some active participation in some contributing manner, and more often used in this manner. However, the context does not allow for that thinking.

In context, "receive" is not taken as one who reaches out and grasps, or takes of what is offered.

Rather, the word can perhaps be pictured as a father going into the dark bedroom of the children while they are asleep and turning on the light.

The "natural" reponse is to turn from the glare of that light, shun the light, avoid the light, push back verbally and physically from the intrusion of the light even become unreasonably angry by the light and whomever turned on the light.

However, to those who "receive" (embrace, do not turn from, partake of the benefits of...) the light, they are given the power. There is no action necessary such as needed to acquire, or engage the light. Nor is there any searching or seeking for the light. Which is (imo) why John very quickly specifically mentions that such is not earned, not a birthright, not struggled for...

John (like all the Gospels) wrote sequentially as it progresses through the life of Christ raising the points John considered essential.

However, UNLIKE the other accounts, one of the outstanding characteristics of John's technique it to demonstrate contrasts. In this instance, the reaction of the lost in comparison to that of the believer to light.

What one cannot do with John's writing is take the view that John is unfolding his account in a progressively revealed step by step plan.

 

[JonShaff]

What EXACTLY is the work of the Holy Spirit toward the world?

There is not a single word offering Salvation in that list given by Christ included in that work of the Holy Spirit toward the world.

Again, the "freedom of choice" argument is strung out as some God given ability innate to every humankind. Yet, even on the surface such is not the case.

Even the most liberal theologians must erect some unscriptural "preceding grace" theory which God uses to magically life someone into an awareness of the claims of Christ that they may freely choose. There is absolutely NO Scripture support for "freedom of choice" or "prevenient / preceding grace."

Such is pie in the sky hope to convince someone hell bound that they might have some false claim of salvation because of someone who made them say some words and they don't even remember what they repeated.

The Power of the Gospel is in the Word of God and the Spirit of God..(Heb. 4:12, 1 Cor. 1, 2 Cor. 4-5, John 1-21, Gen. 1)

You talk about having no grace within non-elect, Do you see how physical LIFE has to be POWERED by GOD? Grace, right? And you Think there is no residual effects (for humanity) of Adam being made in image of God?

And Yes, you taking 2 Thes. 1 to make it say what you want it to say is twisting scripture. You think you have God figured out? Who knows the MInd of God? You sound like Job. 2 Thessalonians is a Continuation of the dealing from the 1st epistle. Unbelieving Jews wanted to destroy them. They Didn't obey the Gospel, similarly to The Jews in the Wilderness...They Chose Unbelief....Simple my friend.

Unconditional Election because of Total Depravity means one has to ignore A LOT of Scripture...

Nobody answered me if Sojourners were forced to Worship God in Spirit and Truth.

 

[JonShaff]

Perhaps you have strained and tripped over "receive."

It is often assumed that the word carries some active participation in some contributing manner, and more often used in this manner. However, the context does not allow for that thinking.

In context, "receive" is not taken as one who reaches out and grasps, or takes of what is offered.

Rather, the word can perhaps be pictured as a father going into the dark bedroom of the children while they are asleep and turning on the light.

The "natural" reponse is to turn from the glare of that light, shun the light, avoid the light, push back verbally and physically from the intrusion of the light even become unreasonably angry by the light and whomever turned on the light.

However, to those who "receive" (embrace, do not turn from, partake of the benefits of...) the light, they are given the power. There is no action necessary such as needed to acquire, or engage the light. Nor is there any searching or seeking for the light. Which is (imo) why John very quickly specifically mentions that such is not earned, not a birthright, not struggled for...

John (like all the Gospels) wrote sequentially as it progresses through the life of Christ raising the points John considered essential.

However, UNLIKE the other accounts, one of the outstanding characteristics of John's technique it to demonstrate contrasts. In this instance, the reaction of the lost in comparison to that of the believer to light.

What one cannot do with John's writing is take the view that John is unfolding his account in a progressively revealed step by step plan.

John 21
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Why would this be a Big deal if There isn't a Human choice????????????

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Isaiah 1
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Believing doesn't steal from the Glory of God (and it doesn't nullify His grace)...

1Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.


I do NOT believe one can lose their salvation, but i do believe One Must respond...and after this i believe it's best for me to withdraw from future conversations concerning TP and Unconditional Election...I am not sure why it's being difficult to understand that IN God's ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY, He has given mankind the opportunity to Believe or not believe. That is the simplicity of the Gospel...the Glorious Message of Jesus Christ our Lord, From Genesis to Revelation.

 

[agedman]

I never mind someone who wants to discuss, even debate views of Scriptures, how they are applicable, and what can be applied to life and living.

However, I have NO tolerance for those who want to declare that I "twist" the Scriptures.

That is just so poor of an argument, and unsubstantiated. For example:

You talk about having no grace within non-elect, Do you see if physical LIFE has to be POWERED by GOD? And you Think there is no residual effects (for humanity) of Adam being made in image of God?

Look back over the thread and see if I even hinted of such statements?

What I hold is that the Scriptures state that the natural man receives NOTHING of the Spirit, that the Scriptures state that there are two kinds of humankind - believers and unbelievers (John 3).

And Yes, you taking 2 Thes. 1 to make it say what you want it to say is twisting scripture.

Of course there is not a single shred of evidence offered, but the rant continued

You think you have God figured out? Who knows the MInd of God? You sound like Job. 2

There is a time when a poster needs to step back and evaluate their statements to see if they are being reactive or responsive. Such statements as above do not edify, nor enhance the argument one seeks to support.

Thessalonians is a Continuation of the dealing from the 1st epistle. Unbelieving Jews wanted to destroy them. They Didn't obey the Gospel, similarly to The Jews in the Wilderness...They Chose Unbelief....Simple my friend.

Perhaps you miss what the writer's emphasis is in 2 Thessalonians.

It is written with the emphasis placed upon the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In contrast to your assumptions, 2 Thessalonians is correcting some of the misconceptions the Thessalonians had adopted concerning the return of Christ.

In fact, I don't recall that anything related to Jewish teaching or confusion by Judaizers is even taken into account in EITHER 1 or 2 Thessalonians.

I think it may be good for you to point to a more specific place in which that is being addressed by the writer.


Now, I have taken the time to be cordial, and to address the issues you raise.

I would ask that you not place the claim upon me that I "twist" scriptures. Not only is it inappropriate, but it supports no argument you offer in defense.

Rather than rant, show me (or anyone else) the basis of your view using Scriptures. Defend using Scriptures, and if the Scriptures support your views, then you will be stronger, if they do not, then the Holy Spirit will gently prompt you to modify.

I am never above being corrected by those who use Scriptures. By those who patiently express their views, can support their thinking by Scriptures, and can reasonably present a balanced approach of both acknowledgement of some points and disagreement of others.

Such makes edification flourish.

 

[JonShaff]

I never mind someone who wants to discuss, even debate views of Scriptures, how they are applicable, and what can be applied to life and living.

However, I have NO tolerance for those who want to declare that I "twist" the Scriptures.

That is just so poor of an argument, and unsubstantiated. For example:




Look back over the thread and see if I even hinted of such statements?

What I hold is that the Scriptures state that the natural man receives NOTHING of the Spirit, that the Scriptures state that there are two kinds of humankind - believers and unbelievers (John 3).



Of course there is not a single shred of evidence offered, but the rant continued



There is a time when a poster needs to step back and evaluate their statements to see if they are being reactive or responsive. Such statements as above do not edify, nor enhance the argument one seeks to support.


Perhaps you miss what the writer's emphasis is in 2 Thessalonians.

It is written with the emphasis placed upon the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In contrast to your assumptions, 2 Thessalonians is correcting some of the misconceptions the Thessalonians had adopted concerning the return of Christ.

In fact, I don't recall that anything related to Jewish teaching or confusion by Judaizers is even taken into account in EITHER 1 or 2 Thessalonians.

I think it may be good for you to point to a more specific place in which that is being addressed by the writer.


Now, I have taken the time to be cordial, and to address the issues you raise.

I would ask that you not place the claim upon me that I "twist" scriptures. Not only is it inappropriate, but it supports no argument you offer in defense.

Rather than rant, show me (or anyone else) the basis of your view using Scriptures. Defend using Scriptures, and if the Scriptures support your views, then you will be stronger, if they do not, then the Holy Spirit will gently prompt you to modify.

I am never above being corrected by those who use Scriptures. By those who patiently express their views, can support their thinking by Scriptures, and can reasonably present a balanced approach of both acknowledgement of some points and disagreement of others.

Such makes edification flourish.

First, You are probably right in your assessment of my responses, i'm sorry to have been short or unedifying.

I completely understand the context and importance of 2 Thes. ...the teaching of Christ's Second coming, he describes some end times events, he gives several directives towards faith and holiness, keeping in mind the things they've been taught, and he continually combats the false teaching that Christ has already came back...We see he tells those who don't work to get back to working...and we see the persecution of the jews (and gentiles) in Acts chapter 17.

And i used the phrase "Twisting Scripture" because 2 Thessalonians describes the reality of the saved and the unsaved, the Lost and the Found, The Unbeliever and the believer, the Child of God and the Child of Disobedience. The Term obey not the gospel* directly reflects a choice, By God's Grace He gives us Light, Through the Preached Word and God and the Power of the Spirit, to Obey the Gospel Call, or not.

 

[agedman]

I do NOT believe one can lose their salvation, but i do believe One Must respond...and after this i believe it's best for me to withdraw from future conversations concerning TP and Unconditional Election...I am not sure why it's being difficult to understand that IN God's ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY, He has given mankind the opportunity to Believe or not believe. That is the simplicity of the Gospel...the Glorious Message of Jesus Christ our Lord, From Genesis to Revelation.

It is not whether one MUST respond to the call of God to believe, rather, it is the if one has the ABILITY to respond. Again, I point to the evidence already shared in John 1.

I also would point you to Hebrew 9:

"15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."​

Remember I mentioned how John was displaying contrasts throughout his gospel account?

Look at this next passage from John 6:

5 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”​

See how that last statement is reflective of receiving, embracing the light of John 1?


May I suggest that you should investigate this writing by Jonathan Edwards:
Freedom of the Will.

 

[agedman]

First, You are probably right in your assessment of my responses, i'm sorry to have been short or unedifying.

I completely understand the context and importance of 2 Thes. ...the teaching of Christ's Second coming, he describes some end times events, he gives several directives towards faith and holiness, keeping in mind the things they've been taught, and he continually combats the false teaching that Christ has already came back...We see he tells those who don't work to get back to working...and we see the persecution of the jews (and gentiles) in Acts chapter 17.

And i used the phrase "Twisting Scripture" because 2 Thessalonians describes the reality of the saved and the unsaved, the Lost and the Found, The Unbeliever and the believer, the Child of God and the Child of Disobedience. The Term Disobedience directly reflects a choice, By God's Grace He gives us Light, Through the Preached Word and God and the Power of the Spirit, to Obey the Gospel Call, or not.

Now this is the kind of post that generates sound discussion and enhances the ability of discernment!

Thank you.

I don't have time to respond this evening, but if you will allow, I will attempt to do so, tomorrow.

That is unless in all the other BB stuff the thread doesn't get lost, or more likely I loose it.

 

[JonShaff]

Now this is the kind of post that generates sound discussion and enhances the ability of discernment!

Thank you.

I don't have time to respond this evening, but if you will allow, I will attempt to do so, tomorrow.

That is unless in all the other BB stuff the thread doesn't get lost, or more likely I loose it.

And for discussion sake...I meant the phrase "obey not the Gospel " and not "disobedience" in my previous post...as we know all unbelievers are children of disobedience Ephesians and Colossians 3 tells us so.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[JonC]

Here are a few subjective observations from my experience.

When I was saved I made the decision to abandon my own righteousness and place my faith in Christ. I made the decision to follow Jesus regardless of the cost. I decided to abandon my old way of life and to live for God. I decided to pursue the things of God and seek to know him more. I actually made all of those decisions.

Looking back before I was saved, it was not really a sense of inability that prevented me from believing. It was an unwillingness that made me unable. I never recognized that I couldn’t because quite simply I was unwilling. But there came that point that I just described when I made that decision to repent and believe.

Something had changed. Where I was once unwilling, a light had broken through and a sliver of conviction reached my consciousness. I guess it was over several weeks that this sliver grew until I found myself willing. When it happened, there was nothing else I could do. When all you know is darkness, and then light bursts through, well….it isn’t a matter of deciding whether or not you can see….it’s just there. Things were different.

I decided to be saved. But without the Holy Spirit working in me, convicting me of my sin, changing my inclination against God and towards myself, then I would forever have remained in the dark. Without the Holy Spirit, I would have continued to make the decision to reject God.

God put within me a new heart and a new spirit. He put his Spirit in me, and he caused me to walk in his statutes. And I did.

 

[JonShaff]

Question...

Christ is the Bread of Life and the True Manna from above, correct?

Did God hand feed those who He loved or did they have to bend down and pick it up (receive), the manna, for themselves (in the wilderness)?

 

[JonShaff]

And I will be just completely honest. I cannot clearly see Total Depravity in the scriptures.

IF God caused unbelief on the hearers, why On Earth did Jesus *marvel* at their *unbelief*

Mark 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[Internet Theologian]

post

Obeying the *Portion* of the Gospel that calls one to Be Holy (the Gospel Instantly makes one Holy as they Have Christ within them (Gal. 2:20) and we are given a *directive to "Work out our salvation with Fear and Trembling...it is God who works in me...") cannot be the overarching theme as you describe. Paul has wrote to the Corinthians about devouring Each, sinning, and not being obedient to the Gospel call of Holy Living. The primary responsibility that man has towards God is obeying the Gospel call...It is to be believed...and only after regeneration is it able to be Obeyed for Sanctification.

Brother, that's nice sentiment but it's not very accurate. Nothing in the passage given shows they rejected the Gospel (Thess.). To say it does is to be eisegetical while viewing through a lens of freewill decision-ism. That's the only way that gets in there.

Now, you are calling my statement of obeying the Gospel an 'overarching theme' and staying that at positional holiness or sanctification (I think). Correct? 'Obey the Gospel' here is not referring to a one time decision or decision at all, but the effect of salvation on the converted. It's easy to read into the text our theological position and 'proof-text' it and with all brotherly love and kindness brother, you are doing it here. 'Obey the gospel' has way more meaning than that. Also note Hebrews 12:14 as personal holiness (sanctifcation) will be pursued only by truly converted persons, thus this is in no way overarching but is biblically accurate.

 

[InTheLight]

And I will be just completely honest. I cannot clearly see Total Depravity in the scriptures.

IF God caused unbelief on the hearers, why On Earth did Jesus *marvel* at their *unbelief*

Mark 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Similarly, if faith is a gift of God, as Calvinists claim it says in Ephesians 2, why did Jesus marvel at the faith he found in the centurion?

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
Matthew 8:10 NKJV


Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo using Tapatalk.

 

[JonShaff]

Brother, that's nice sentiment but it's not very accurate. Nothing in the passage given shows they rejected the Gospel (Thess.). To say it does is to be eisegetical while viewing through a lens of freewill decision-ism. That's the only way that gets in there.

Now, you are calling my statement of obeying the Gospel an 'overarching theme' and staying that at positional holiness or sanctification (I think). Correct? 'Obey the Gospel' here is not referring to a one time decision or decision at all, but the effect of salvation on the converted. It's easy to read into the text our theological position and 'proof-text' it and with all brotherly love and kindness brother, you are doing it here. 'Obey the gospel' has way more meaning than that. Also note Hebrews 12:14 as personal holiness (sanctifcation) will be pursued only by truly converted persons, thus this is in no way overarching but is biblically accurate.

I enjoy our conversations and don't want to sound rude, but brother, you are doing what you are accusing me of lol....eisegeting the text. Of course they are disobedient and persecutors...they are unregenerate. Thing is, if they were polite and kind it would be difficult to say they didn't obey the gospel (in your thinking).

 

[kyredneck]

Of course they are disobedient and persecutors...they are unregenerate.

....and the invert of that is; it is impossible for the 'regenerate' to be persecutors or disobedient, right?

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

...no way someone like Paul could do such a thing, right?

 

[agedman]

Question...

Christ is the Bread of Life and the True Manna from above, correct?

Did God hand feed those who He loved or did they have to bend down and pick it up (receive), the manna, for themselves (in the wilderness)?

Again, you seem to be tripping over "receive" as if it always carries the same definition.

There are times in Scripture one must rely upon context to arrive at the correct application and which definition is to be applied to the text.

 

[JonShaff]

Again, you seem to be tripping over "receive" as if it always carries the same definition.

There are times in Scripture one must rely upon context to arrive at the correct application and which definition is to be applied to the text.

I'm at work...i will have to reply later this evening...

 

[agedman]

Similarly, if faith is a gift of God, as Calvinists claim it says in Ephesians 2, why did Jesus marvel at the faith he found in the centurion?

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
Matthew 8:10 NKJV


Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo using Tapatalk.

Acknowledging that faith is a gift from God does not mean that God gives equally or of the same measure to all, or that God had not already determined to shut the hearts and minds of the Jews to accomplish His purpose by giving few Jews faith rather than the many.

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.​

Paul continued the discussion in Romans explaining that that faith was to be put to use and not meant to "puff up" one member above another.

 

[agedman]

I'm at work...i will have to reply later this evening...

Ok