I've never known a Calvinist...

To save themselves? That's what I once wanted. I can't, though.

 

They want the wrong things, and they want to get them the wrong way. That was the problem with the Pharisees. They wanted righteousness -- their own. It might seem like they wanted the right thing (righteousness), but the heart of their problem was that they wanted to credit what they viewed as righteousness all to themselves.

That's the natural state of man - totally self-centered.

In the end, it is still deceptive to imply that there are people who want Jesus but can't have him. NOBODY who wants Jesus can't have him. That's the second half of the Gospel as described in "All the Father gives me will come to me, and he who comes to me I will in no way cast out."

The key is, who wants Jesus and why? Those the Father gives Jesus want Him. And they will get Him, no matter how they come to Him. The rest do not want Jesus, so to say there's no hope for them is true from the perspective of someone who is saved and knows that Jesus is the only hope. But it is misleading, because it implies they want Jesus but can't have him.

 

No, you cannot make your kids Godly. Is this what the non-calvinsit believe? Parents can make their children Godly?

So you and Helen believe that there will be those in Heaven who were of the non-elect?

Sing what you want, perhaps: “Jesus loves the little Children but will send you to hell if you don’t love Him back”.

How do you tell your child Jesus died for your sins, and paid the price for your sins, but you might also have to pay for them again.

Explain to them that if enough people pray for you God will intervene and alter your free-will. Then again, if you don't have people praying for you your out of luck. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, you've taken the typical Calvinist stance of saying that there's nothing that you can do. It's all done by God. You can provide a Christian home for your children but that won't lead them to the Lord so why do it? Actually, this is true:

“Jesus loves the little Children but will send you to hell if you don’t love Him back”. Do you believe that when Christ commanded us to love God and our fellow man he really didn't mean it? You don't have to pay for your sins again you simply have to accept the free gift of salvation by grace, repent and follow Him. You don't believe in the power of prayer? Well, I suppose if everything is predestined there's no need to pray.

 

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.

You don't need predestination to find a reason not to pray. Jesus said God knows what we need even before we ask, so why bother asking?

Then He told us how to pray. Funny, that.

 

The obvious reason to pray, and witness for that matter, is because God has commanded us to. That is all the reason I need. How about you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Do you believe that when Christ commanded us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect he really didn't mean it? Or would you acknowledge that we cannot do that on our own? Do you think you can, of your own accord, be something that you are not naturally? This is why we must be born again. Become a new spiritual creation. We are spiritually dead. Think about it. We cannot bring our spiritually dead selves back to life. Only God can do that. That is what is so amazing about the grace of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph you are miss interpting that passage. it is being perfect in the love of the FAther. As Christian we can and do do that. Love our enemies. It is something we can do. Went through this with Calvi.
Not any different then if God calls all to repent, to call, too choose then they can do it.

 

In Paul's testimony,who is the source of his faith and love as he sets forth in 1 Timothy 1:14
and Ephesians 6:23?

 

Helen asked:

Then please tell my why millions in different religions all try to make themselves better somehow.

Because they are believers in false religions and are being deceived by them. Duh!

 

Can you? Can you save them?

You protest when someone says that God regenerates a person changing their nature so that they willfully believe... but have no problem believing that YOU can raise your children to be godly Christians?

As mentioned before, you can obey God concerning your children and how you should witness to them and disciple them. You cannot however "raise" them godly Christians. It is beyond your ability to make someone else a Christian.

Which points to the other side of the arminian error- that the efforts of a soul winner are a critical factor in whether someone believes or not... that somehow you can browbeat someone into a genuine conversion.

Even under your system that glorifies man and makes him central... will your children be saved if God didn't foreknow that they would be? If not then is there nothing God might have done in their lives and even through you to change that outcome?

You've set a trap that you can't avoid yourself.

In your system at the end of the day, no one remains lost because they are sinners but because either Christians or God didn't try hard enough to convince them. You make God both a respector of persons by trying hard enough for some and not others as well as a frequent failure since He would really like to save more people but just can't get it done.

His sacrifice isn't for them if they never receive Him... so you haven't escaped this problem either.

This always goes back to the same question that non-calvinists either can't or won't answer.

Why do some believe while others don't? What is that initial goodness that causes one to have the sight to see Jesus for who He is while another won't see Him no matter how plainly He is put in front of them?

There are two possible answers: Man is good enough on his own to make the right decision about Christ or God endows some with that goodness while allowing others to continue in their "unrestricted free will" rebellion against Him.

 

You are putting the cart before the horse. The millions who are involved in false religions are involved precisely because they know they are not what they should be and want to improve, somehow.

Wrong again Helen. They are involved in false religions because they reject the true God and are blinded to his righteousness, turning instead to gods of their own invention (Rom. 1:21-23).

Man, universally, knows something is wrong with himself. And just as universally he wants to make it right.

Wrong again Helen. Man knows there is something wrong with him, because the evidence of the true God is set before him (Rom 1:19-20). God gives them over to their depraved unbelief (Rom. 1:28), so that not only do they not wish to "make it right," they encourage others to join them in their depravity (Rom. 1:32).

This is something which flies in the face of Calvinistic doctrine of 'total depravity' which states an unredeemed man cannot know know, do, or want what is good.

You finally get one right, Helen. Your theological fantasies do fly in the face of Calvinistic doctrine - and biblical truth.

An enormous number of people who are not Christians are involved in massive amounts of charitable work. They are not doing evil.

Wrong again Helen. Outside of Christ, "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" (Isa. 64:6).

Millions are asking the questions to which Christ is the only answer. These people are not 'totally depraved.' They are sick, lost, searching, in spiritual pain.

Wrong again Helen. "Searching" they may be, but whatever they are searching for, it is not for the true God, because there is none that seeks God (Rom. 3:21). The natural man does receive the things of God (2 Cor. 2:13); he desires only that which is in accordance with his sin nature (Rom. 8:5). In other words, he loves his false religion and chooses to be deceived by it. That is what sinners do.

Calvinism shoves them off into the mass of the 'non-elect' and shrugs its shoulders of them.

Wrong again Helen. Calvinism tells them the truth about their spiritual condition and points them to the only remedy, which is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, received by faith. Christ's righteousness is the only true and GOd-pleasing righteousness in the universe; those who try to earn God's favour through their own good works merely insult him further.

 

Helen, I think you give the human race way too much credit. I know lots of people who say they want to better themselves, but what they really want is to feel better about themselves, or just to feel better, period. When they do "charitable deeds", they do them for the wrong motives. (See filthy rags in post above.) That's self-centered, and it is the nature of man.

Heck, I don't even know that many so-called Christians who want to better themselves. They want what they want, and if that means disobeying God to get it, they disobey God.

I've only known a few non-Christians who truly wanted to better themselves. Guess what? They're Christians now. That tells me that the the reason they really wanted to better themselves is because the Holy Spirit was working in them. They are the elect, and God was drawing them.

 

You know I have seen a problem on both sides on one side you have the frozen chosen (BTW I doctrines of Grace i.e. Calvinists) and give up on they kids or other because it is God’s will. On the other hand I have see the free will group give up on they kid because they made a choose 35 years a go and once saved always save. And just because they live like the devil and have not been back in church in 35 years they have they hell insurance.

St. John

 

So because some Calvinists are idiots, Calvinism must be wrong? Think about what you're saying, Helen.

I knew a lot of Bible-thumpers as a non-Christian. I used that as an excuse to hate God and Christians for a long time (I was a hard-core evangelical atheist until I was about 33). Does that mean that the Bible is wrong?

In retrospect, now that I believe the Bible, I know what they were saying was TRUE. They were just idiots in the way they were handling and presenting the truth.

Taken to the logical extreme, one could conclude that because many Christians are idiots and go about offending others, Christianity must not be true.

By the way, isn't it funny that despite all these people did to help me hate God and Christians I eventually came to know and love Jesus? One might actually conclude from this that God is more powerful than idiots and can reach anyone no matter what the idiots say or do. Imagine that!

Have faith in God. If the children are elect, then it doesn't matter what parents say or do.

 

That isn't particularly true. Man universally knows that there is something wrong that effects him... but most of the unregenerate don't blame it on themselves but rather on others.

And again, he wants it to become right but not at the sacrifice of his own worth, "rights", or sovereignty. Even self-reformers don't want to "make it right" concerning themselves. They simply make calculations for how they can attain what they want by "paying for it". They don't want it to be right for the sake of righteousness but because they think selfishly that it will benefit them... and they certainly don't want to be right because it glorifies God.

No. It isn't.

The only genuine "good" is that which glorifies God. Man's "good" and "goodness" are only so judged from human perspective. They are "universally" done for ultimately sinful reasons since the only righteous motive is to please God.

A local social club may "do good" by having a food pantry for the poor... but who gets credit and glory for it? God or the club... and its members? The answer is obvious thus the activity is ultimately man glorifying- and sinful.

Yes they are. They are doing these things either in honor of an idol or themselves- not the God of the Bible much less for the furtherance of His gospel.

Yes. They are doing what is right in their own eyes... and many if not all will use these "good deeds" to justify their sinfulness in other areas and their rejection of salvation through Christ alone.

This statement contradicts what you are trying to prove.

No. People want what is "good" for them... Therein lies the difference.

Further, the gospel doesn't promise immediate "good" for them. In fact, it asks them to choose self-denial and self-sacrifice on the faith that the gospel is true and the hope that God will reward them at some point.

The natural man will not discern these things nor believe them. He places his faith in what he sees as beneficial to himself in this life.

Sure they are. These millions can ask these questions a billion times over... and always see "good for them" as the immediate objective standard for what is "good" in the world.

 

Helen wrote

WRONG...people are in false religions because of PRIDE-SELFISH. They think by their good wroks and trying to please God they can EARN Heaven. your thinking that man knows he is a sinner is way off, most think they are basically GOOD, not sinners.

 

Helen quote

21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

21:3
To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

21:4
An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

21:5
The thoughts of the diligent tend only to plenteousness; but of every one that is hasty only to want.

21:6
The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.

21:7
The robbery of the wicked shall destroy them; because they refuse to do judgment.

21:8
The way of man is froward and strange: but as for the pure, his work is right.

21:9
It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

21:10
The soul of the wicked desireth evil: his neighbour findeth no favour in his eyes.

21:11
When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise: and when the wise is instructed, he receiveth knowledge.

21:12
The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

21:14
A gift in secret pacifieth anger: and a reward in the bosom strong wrath.

21:15
It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

21:16
The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

21:17
He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

21:18
The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright.

21:19
It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

21:20
There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up.

21:21
He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

21:22
A wise man scaleth the city of the mighty, and casteth down the strength of the confidence thereof.

21:23
Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles.

21:24
Proud and haughty scorner is his name, who dealeth in proud wrath.

21:25
The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.

21:26
He coveteth greedily all the day long: but the righteous giveth and spareth not.

21:27
The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

21:28
A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.

21:29
A wicked man hardeneth his face: but as for the upright, he directeth his way.

21:30
There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.

21:31
The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.