Originally posted by Frenchy:
I noticed Helen avoided this question I had, please someone answer me this? by the way Helen i totally respect you and your delegence
to the word of God. You do a very good job in debating,lots of times i agree with you and when i don't i still respect your great answers that keeps me searching the bible for the truths i know in my heart. i have even learned some things from you, thank you. keep up the good fight, and just know i resect you and your opinions.
having said all that....
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So how can an Arminian believe in assurance of salvation? I mean come on if they had to do something then they can also UNDO it too. seems very contradictory doesn't it?
So which is it?
God did it all even the calling/choosing before the foundartions of the world. therefore he will keep that which he called/chose or we had something to do with our salvation therefore those who hold to the veiw of losing it are right
This is where Helens "Free Will" examples fall apart.
We do have free will before salvation and after, but at the MOMENT of salvation it is the WORK of God. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who has sent me DRAWS HIM."
God intervines on many occasions in our lives over riding FREE WILL for those saved and unsaved!
Seems that is the answer that yes we have free will but God in his sovernty decides when he wants to override our free will, and why. if he wants to choose who he wants that is within his sovernty, no one has been able to biblically explain away any of the verses where he said he chose us and draws us, according to his good will and pleasure, before the foundations of the world
It is a mystery and a paridox, which humanly cannot be explained. Just as how can Jesus be 100% man and 100% God?
you can't explain that no matter what, you just have to trust that since the bible is clear that he is then it must be true. just as the bible says God chose us and he is the one that draws us, and he is the one that keeps us, that our salvation doesn't depend on ourselves but God. but we have a free will that when that drawing and truth is presented to us that we have the opportunity to believe, to accept that which is true.
I was witnessed to many times in my life i even asked Jesus in my heart at 14 but there was NO change he didn't come in. what happened I believed what I had learned I wanted God in my life, but it didn't happen at 14 or even 7 years later. it happened when GOD wanted it to happen.
looking back i always felt God's working in my life or guardian anges or whatever, some kind of protection. so why didn't he save me when i asked? I honestly believe because it wasn't my time to be saved.
I am probably a much better christian being saved when i was, than at a young age. just my opinion but i am sure there are others out there
who would agree they experenced the same thing. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for your patience. I did not mean to skip a question --
First, please understand I am NOT Arminian. Saying yes or no to God has NOTHING to do with works. And again, wanting something has nothing to do with being able to achieve it. I think part of the problem is semantics -- free 'will' seems to indicate you can do something about what you want. That, even in our normal day to day lives is sure not the case. I have bad legs and ever since I was a little girl I wanted to fly. The want was certainly free, but the ability has somehow never arrived!
So I don't know how an Arminian can believe in the assurance of salvation! I can't answer that question because I ain't one!
I do want to point out a faulty bit of reasoning, though -- the idea that if you can 'do' something then you can undo it. I can break a glass, and then it stays broken. I cannot undo that.
I remember being in labor with my oldest. Transition hit and I remember saying to this lump of pain "I wish you back into an egg!" But I couldn't undo it! I'm very glad about that, too! If you gossip about someone and it spreads around, you can't undo it. In fact, I would venture to say that there are probably very few things in life that you do that you can actually undo. Decisions are decisions and the action goes on from there. We have a bit of pasture out back for our rescue horses which we divided in half, so each half could rest for awhile while they grazed the other. We switched sides recently. I overseeded the now vacant bit. If I decided not to seed afterwards, or to seed with a different seed, too late. No way I could pick up all those seeds scattered across the ground and in the existing grass! A few weeks ago we had to put a horse down because of what was probably cancer. She was in enormous pain. But we loved her so much! And as I led her out to the grassy area where the vet was, I knew I could still turn her back. Even when the first sedative IV went in, I knew we could still reverse the decision. The second painkiller went in. I could still reverse the decision. She was down on the ground now, and very groggy. Then the vet looked at me and I nodded and the lethal injection went in. No way back. At that point I could not reverse the decision.
I think that is the way with an awful lot in life.
I know it is the way with God. Once you are born again, that's it. Your old self is destroyed and even though you still have to deal with your flesh, you are an entirely new person inside, and there is no way back.
As I think about it, writing this, something else comes to mind. Those who refuse Christ. Both in the Bible and in real life it seems that, like my leading old Missy out to the vet that evening, even though people are walking in the direction of hell, there are so many points at which they are able to turn, and some do. But, like with Pharoah, like with Judas, there comes a point of no return when that last and final decision is made, despite all the opportunities to reverse the decision. To me, looking at the people just walking down the streets, that is a scary thought.
As far as who the Father draws, He does not violate their free will. These are the people who have responded to the truth in their lives; the people who have sought Him. "Seek and ye shall find" is a real promise. The point is, what are you seeking? Some seek only for themselves, and, in the end, that is probably all they get. That is scary, too. Some seek for what seems to be good and true. They may set off in the wrong direction, but God knows the heart and if they are really wanting what is good and true -- no matter how badly they seem to define them or look for them -- God will lead/draw them to Christ. This is in fulfillment of their free desire or want, not in opposition to it.
Yes, salvation itself is utterly a work of God. But it is also a gift, and gifts can be accepted or refused. Accepting or refusing is not a work; it is a simple "I want it" or "I don't want it" -- an expression of the heart. God has done all the work and He also takes responsibility for the maturation of the Christian (Phil. 1:6 and Romans 8:28-30, etc.).
So I agree with you in that there is nothing we can do to deserve, merit, help with, or maintain our salvation. But we are free to accept it or refuse it. That's what free will means, at least to me.
I hope that helps clarify a bit, and thank you for the compliments and your attitude.
edit: why didn't He save you when you asked? First of all, you were not yet an adult and you were not yet separated from God at fourteen. God, nevertheless, knew your heart and you did not die until you had received what you wanted, did you? Yes, it was HIS time. Yes, it was HIS way. It was also in response to your earnest desire. We can't boss God around; we can only express our hearts to Him. He does not ignore us or play games. He does it all perfectly, and has chosen, in His own sovereignty and love, to do it the best way for us -- which is often confusing for us but which is something we will see clearly later. But He did respond to your freely felt desire. He drew you to Christ.!
