Jade Helm 15, Part II

[poncho]

Yes and you responded with the "magical words" to dismiss them all. But that's normal these days for people that want to avoid evidence that might cause them to reconsider their own position. You're far from the first to take that tact.

I find it very interesting that you haven't answered SolaSaint's questions yet. I believe they were addressed to you.

All I can say is do you really trust our government right now? Has there ever been a more secretive government?

 

[TCassidy]

Yes and you responded with the "magical words" to dismiss them all. But that's normal these days.

Give me one instance where federal troops enforced civil law. Just one. Month. Day. Year. Place. Brief summation. That should be very simple if it is happening as often as you seem to be implying.

I find it very interesting that you haven't answered SolaSaint's question yet. I believe it was addressed to you.
Do you?

Your believing it doesn't make it so. I don't trust our government, as I clearly indicated in my early post, so the question was obviously not directed to me.

 

[poncho]

Avoiding the question, Poncho?





*laugh*

Yeah that's what I do when people resort to using magical words and incantations to score points with the audience?

 

[poncho]

Give me one instance where federal troops enforced civil law. Just one. Month. Day. Year. Place. Brief summation. That should be very simple if it is happening as often as you seem to be implying.

Your believing it doesn't make it so. I don't trust our government, as I clearly indicated in my early post, so the question was obviously not directed to me.

I already did. I spent enough time looking them up so you could dismiss them with a magical incantation. I'm not going to keep answering your questions just to be told I haven't answered your questions.

I still find it very interesting that in one thread you seem to be saying tyranny is being incrementally instituted by the "normalization process" then turn around and dismiss the idea that same process is happening with military drills by invoking magical words.

Just because you can dismiss evidence with two words doesn't mean it isn't evidence. But it would seem to mean that you believe using magical words is sufficient to dismiss it all. But, like I said that's normal these days.

Just as normal as warrant less searches, illegal wars and congress raising the debt limit.

 

[TCassidy]

I already did.

No, you didn't. Here it is again.

Month. Day. Year. Place. Brief summation.

 

[TCassidy]

I still find it very interesting that in one thread you seem to be saying tyranny is being incrementally instituted by the "normalization process" then turn around and dismiss the idea that same process is happening with military drills by invoking magical words.

I didn't say that. I said there have been no egregious possee comitatus violations.

 

[Rolfe]

Avoiding answering post number 17?





*laugh*

Yeah that's what I do when people resort to using magical words and incantations to score points with the audience?

This seems like something that someone who is trying to avoid answering "yes" or "no" would write.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Poncho, I live in a state which regularly calls out its National Gurad (Army and Air) for state service during natural disasters, for example earthquakes and forest\wild fires.

 

[InTheLight]

Poncho,
Here are the magical words that effectively dismiss your allegations:

Most of those guys were National Guard who ARE allowed to work with local police in the enforcement of civil law. It is FEDERAL troops who are forbidden by posse comitatus from doing so.

And here they are again:

Poncho, I live in a state which regularly calls out its National Gurad (Army and Air) for state service during natural disasters, for example earthquakes and forest\wild fires.

We need an example of the (regular) Army, (regular) Air Force, Marines, or Navy being used to enforce civilian laws. I'm not even sure about the Marines and Navy since they aren't specifically mentioned in the posse comitatus laws. They might be exempt.

 

[poncho]

In other words emergency situations.

The three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, in a decision handed down last week, said the 2012 prosecution of Michael Allan Dreyer by the U.S. Attorney's Office in Seattle demonstrated Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) agents "routinely carry out broad surveillance activities that violate" the Posse Comitatus Act, a Reconstruction-era law that prohibits the military from enforcing civilian laws.

The court called the violations "extraordinary" and said evidence presented in Dreyer's prosecution appears to show that "it has become a routine practice for the Navy to conduct surveillance of all the civilian computers in an entire state to see whether any child pornography can be found on them, and then to turn over that information to civilian law enforcement when no military connection exists."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/...-child-porn-evidence-cites-navy-snooping.html

Reports from the Empire State indicate that the National Guard is assisting local law enforcement in Albany, that state's capital city, to search and seize weapons from citizens — an apparent violation of the Fourth Amendment and the Posse Comitatus Act.

The unique charter of the National Guard creates a force that is a "joint reserve component of the United States Army" and therefore it is proscribed from exercising police power (the exclusive province of the state and the municipalities thereof) except under the very limited circumstances set forth in the Constitution and the Posse Comitatus Act.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...760-ny-national-guard-violate-posse-comitatus

The manhunt for the Boston Marathon bombing suspects offered the nation a window into the stunning military-style capabilities of our local law enforcement agencies. For the past 30 years, police departments throughout the United States have benefitted from the government’s largesse in the form of military weaponry and training, incentives offered in the ongoing “War on Drugs.” For the average citizen watching events such as the intense pursuit of the Tsarnaev brothers on television, it would be difficult to discern between fully outfitted police SWAT teams and the military.

The lines blurred even further Monday as a new dynamic was introduced to the militarization of domestic law enforcement. By making a few subtle changes to a regulation in the U.S. Code titled “Defense Support of Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies” the military has quietly granted itself the ability to police the streets without obtaining prior local or state consent, upending a precedent that has been in place for more than two centuries.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/militarypowergrab14may13.shtml

 

[TCassidy]

Naval Criminal Investigative Service

A civilian agency not reporting to any uniformed Navy officer but directly to the civilian Secretary of the Navy.

 

[poncho]

A civilian agency not reporting to any uniformed Navy officer but directly to the civilian Secretary of the Navy.

The three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, in a decision handed down last week, said the 2012 prosecution of Michael Allan Dreyer by the U.S. Attorney's Office in Seattle demonstrated Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) agents "routinely carry out broad surveillance activities that violate" the Posse Comitatus Act, a Reconstruction-era law that prohibits the military from enforcing civilian laws.

Obviously these judges are crazed conspiracy theorists that all share the same misunderstanding of the law. Right?

And the NG has every right in the world to carry out warrant less searches and confiscate guns from civilian New Yorkers. Right?

And the DOD has every right to use the military to police the citizenry without invitation or consent of civilian law enforcement because it changed a few words in a statute. Right?

I know none of this is to be looked at as evidence of wrong doing because it's all a big conspiracy theory. Right?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The key in the relationship between a Guard unit and the local law enforcement is who is paying the Guard unit's expenses. If the unit has been called up by the governor and it's expenses are being paid by the state, the unit is not regulated by the Posse Comitatus Act. If the unit is Federalized, then it comes under the PCA.

Don't conflate a state, commonwealth (Puerto Rico), or territory's (Guam) National Guard with the Army or Air Force Reserve. Those components are solely under Federal jurisdiction.

 

[TCassidy]

Obviously these judges are crazed conspiracy theorists that all share the same misunderstanding of the law. Right?

No, left. The 9th Circuit is known for its far left radicalism. (What do you expect from a court in San Francisco?) And the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals tossed out the Michael Dreyer child porn evidence because NCIS gained it without benefit of a search warrant.

And the NG has every right in the world to carry out warrant less searches and confiscate guns from civilian New Yorkers. Right?

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? Nobody has said anybody has the right to search and seizure without a warrant. That was what I said in my first post!

And the DOD has every right to use the military to police the citizenry without invitation or consent of civilian law enforcement because it changed a few words in a statute. Right?

Please give a factual example of federal troops enforcing civil law.

I know none of this is to be looked at as evidence of wrong doing because it's all a big conspiracy theory. Right?

No, it is a bunch of ravings without any facts to back it up. Kind of like your "birther" nonsense.

 

[poncho]

No, left. The 9th Circuit is known for its far left radicalism. (What do you expect from a court in San Francisco?) And the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals tossed out the Michael Dreyer child porn evidence because NCIS gained it without benefit of a search warrant.
Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? Nobody has said anybody has the right to search and seizure without a warrant. That was what I said in my first post!
Please give a factual example of federal troops enforcing civil law.

No, it is a bunch of ravings without any facts to back it up. Kind of like your "birther" nonsense.

I gave you four hours worth of factual instances. You refuse to look at them because they're "a bunch of conspiracy theories".

Ok, let me get this straight. If a judge makes a ruling you don't agree with he's a leftist so his verdict doesn't count, none of the examples I gave you already which you apparently never reviewed because they are a bunch of "conspiracy theories" don't count, and you are more of an expert on citizenship than the experts on citizenship, and you're also more of an expert on Obama's birth certificate than the experts who tore it apart and investigated it. Alrighty then.

So to sum up. If I say this, it's a conspiracy theory, if say that it's nonsense, if a judge rules against you he's a leftist, if an expert disagrees with you he doesn't know what hes talking about.

I get it you're the expert on everything. Congratulations.

 

[TCassidy]

Ok, let me get this straight. If a judge makes a ruling you don't agree with he's a leftist so his verdict doesn't count.

What doesn't count is when you make things up as you go along.

Here is the exact statement by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals regarding the exercise
of the exclusionary rule in the Dreyer case. (No. 13-30077, D.C. No. 2:12-cr-00119-MJP-1)

The panel reaffirmed that NCIS agents are bound by Posse Comitatus Act-like (not the actual Posse Comitatus Act) restrictions on direct assistance to civilian law enforcement, and held that the agent’s broad investigation into sharing of child pornography by anyone within the state of Washington, not just those on a military base or with a reasonable likelihood of a Navy affiliation, violated the regulations and policies proscribing direct military enforcement of civilian laws.

“PCA-like restrictions” apply to the Navy as a matter of Department of Defense (DoD) and Naval policy. Chon, 210 F.3d at 993; see also United States v. Khan, 35 F.3d 426, 431 (9th Cir. 1994). Specifically, DoD policy states that its “guidance on the Posse Comitatus Act . . . is applicable to the Department of the Navy and the Marine Corps as a matter of DoD policy, with such exceptions as may be provided by the Secretary of the Navy on a case-by-case basis.” DoD Directive (DoDD) 5525.5 Enclosure 4 E4.3 (Jan. 15, 1986).

See what the court actually said? NCIS violated its own internal regulations and policies by giving the information to a local law enforcement agency. Not the PCA.

And if it were a law then the Secretary of the Navy could not make exceptions to it. All it was was a DoD policy.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As for the 9th CA, it well known as a bastion of liberal jurisprudence. The Supreme Court regularly sets the 9th's rulings aside. Ansd no I don't have an index or catalog. I am recalling what I read in my local papers.

 

[poncho]

I see. I have to show proof with dates, times, and precise locations in triplicate (which I did) to back up my statements but all you guys have to do is mutter more magic words "they're a bunch of liberals" end of story!

I get it now. To be an all knowing expert on everything one only need to know a few magical words.

20 years of research and 15 years worth of documentation can be swept away by using a few magic words so what are some of those magical debate ending words? Let's see, there's "conspiracy theory" that's like the nuclear option.

In a sentence . . .

"I don't have to look at 15 or 20 years worth of documentation to know it's bull because it's all a conspiracy theory I win you lose!"

Then there's "they're a bunch of liberals" so they can't have a valid concern or opinion or court ruling.

In a sentence . . .

"A panel of three judges are wrong because they are a bunch of liberals."

"Anti American".

In a sentence . . .

"How dare you question the US military or the police don't you know that's anti American you liberal?"

"Nonsense."

In a sentence . . .

"I don't care if those guys are experts and professional investigators that claim Obama's birth certificate is a forgery, they're just talking nonsense!"

I win you lose!

Tell me oh wise and all knowing experts on everything why do we have these sacred cows that we aren't allowed to question? And why are the rules different for you when it comes to backing up your own statements? Why should people have to go to the trouble to provide "proof" that you won't even consider looking at?

Is that the kind of guy you are TC, really? Calling people dumb if they don't submit after you toss out your magical words and incantations.

What happens when that doesn't work? Will I have to look at that big picture of you in your uniform again to make me suddenly feel compelled to bow down to your "authoritah"? Laugh

I think using magical words and incantations as proof positive that your statements are beyond reproach is dumb but I don't hit the "dumb" button every time someone uses them in an attempt to cast a spell over a debate. That would be dumb. I'd wear out my computer because casting spells on debates by using magical words is considered "normal" now.

Let's just call it what it is. It's the "conservative" version of political correctness. It's just another way to avoid looking at facts and information that might call your opinion into question and to shut down debate.

Political correctness is dumb I agree but it's even more dumb for "conservatives" to use their own brand of PC to shut down debate, "prove" they're right and to protect their own sacred cows.

 

[InTheLight]

I see. I have to show proof with dates, times, and precise locations in triplicate (which I did) to back up my statements but all you guys have to do is mutter more magic words "they're a bunch of liberals" end of story!

No, people have said that the National Guard and the Air National Guard are not covered under Posse Comitatus. You've ignored that and prattled on about "magical words." Address the fact that most of your videos involved the National Guard, which don't fall under Posse Comitatus.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I'm not saying they are magic words. I am saying the circuit over the last twenty or so years has proved its self to be one of the more liberal circuits. IIRC, its peer is the DC circuit.