Japan mulls pre-emptive strike against N Korea

[Eliyahu]

There were much misunderstanding on my stance.
I believe the followings:

1) I am not condemning US so much, but believe US was established by the great Christian forefathers like Ben Franklin, John Quincy Adams, and so on.

2) US demonstrated the democracy better than any other contries in the world, I believe Abe Lincoln was a great Christian president.

3) I can point out one example, that the German POW captured in Stalingrad were 110,000 but only 5-6,000 returned alive, while all of the German POW captured by US or Canadians return home safely or enjoyed the better life even in the camps than theirs in Germany.

4) I believe that Kim, Ilsung was the very person who caused the extreme atrocities by provoking the Korean War, under the instigation by Stalin and Mao Tse Tung. He never apologized to Koreans until he died in 1994.

5) Kim, Jungil, the son of Kim Ilsung, is definitely responsible for the prisoner camps which imprison and torture many christians, and many other people over 100,000 even today. I believe that Sung Herim, his ex-wife was killed by him and her nephew Lee, Hanyoung was killed in SK by his agent.

6) I believe that we have to separate between Kim Jungil and the people of NK. Kim and his clique have pressed the people so much so far, and therefore we have to find out some way to cultivate the resistance among the people, in which I may differ from you.

7) I have noticed and believe that there are much misunderstanding about Korean issues among US people, some of which are:
- Pre-emptive attack may bring the quick solution ?
Some of you already agreed to the problems with this idea.
The reason why SK people don't accept this idea is because:
If US attack NK, NK will retaliated US bases inside SK. NK will bombard US army head quarters in downtown Seoul ( Yongsan), will attack 2nd infantry division in Tongduchon, NK will attack all the bases in SK, moreover, US-ROK Defense Treaty requires SK to be involved in the war with NK in case US bases are attacked by NK.
Koreans already experienced the tragedy of 4 million death during the Korean War and expect it would suffer more than 8 millions death if the war take place this time. They don't want to repeat it.
I already mentioned that such pre-emptive attack will not work even for Japan as they have a lot of weakness exposed to NK.

- SK is helping NK with money and aid too much?
SK is not helping NK more than 10 % of what West Germany did for East Germany, which is basically humanitarian aids.

- People of SK betray their benevolent supporter, US who sacrificed over 50,000 lives during Korean War by Anti-American Demonstration:
a) We must remember that those demonstration took place when US oppose the peace movement between NK and SK, or when US attempt the Pre-emptive attacks to NK, which will surely cause the causalties of millions of Korean people again.

b) Another important reason for such Anti-American sentiment is due to the crimes of US military forces in Korea, which are not reported in US by major media at all. This is why I illustrated the examples and strongly argued with you all here.

c) Another reason for such difference in viewing the Korean War is that the division of Korea by US had caused such tragedy and that many Koreans believe that even 50,000 USF would not have been killed if US had not divided Korea into 2 pieces at Yalta Conference Feb 1945


I can easily read US making many policies without having thorough understanding about the local background there.

I believe that Reunification of Koreas at the minimum expense is the target to pursue, then Korea can become Nuke-Free, Neutral country with free democracy and free capitalism.
For that purpose, Separation between Kim's clique and NK people is important, and Refugees from NK must be accepted by US. Only recently US started to accept the refugees who entered US consulate (in Shen Yang, Manchuria) only from this month. If US did so since 15 years ago, as SK and other countries did, NK would have changed quite a lot. When the NK refugees tried to enter the US consulates, US refused them for security reasons. This is very important because the most of NK people do not know about other countries, about SK, believing that their NK is still a paradise.

If US just followed the Geneva treaty as agreed, then NK will still have maintained the IAEA inspectors even today and had to retard or delay their Nuke program any way. In the meantime, neighbor countries could have worked quite a lot for the refugees and humanitarian problems, cultivating the dissidents or resistance there in NK, by now. But what did US have achieved since US declared the stoppage of supplying Diesel to NK and as a consequence NK expelled IAEA inspectors ?
Without the change of the NK people, we can hardly expect the better change of the NK regime.


8) I believe that Christians should have the political opinions different from politicians, as God sees the world and the history.
Do you believe the criminals of USFK were the Christians?
But I must tell you that those murderers were not christians. Read here:

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. ( 1 John 3:15)

Those murderers are the non-Christians who refused the Gospels. ( even though we may not know they were converted later on)

Since when have you become the advocators for the non-believers, non-Christians?

I say again that we must view the whole things from God's point of view, from Christ's point of view, not from US or Japan or Korea which are eventually fragile all.


I pray my God every morning, that the Light of salvation should shine in NK and many people of NK have the chance of listening to the Gospel without starving, that the Christian believers inside the prisoner camps should be relieved from the torture and pains and have the freedom to believe in the Lord Jesus and serve God, and that there should be a big change in the ruling regime of NK either the change of the rulers or the change of the minds of the ruling people.
Therefore my view is based on my Christian belief.

How do you pray for NK before you utter your opinions here?
Do you pray "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb North Korea" ? or "Attack North Korea" ? or May God kill the animal Kim ?
or do you utter just the same thoughts of the unbelieving politicians?
Let me know so that I may learn from you some useful teachings if any.

 

[Eliyahu]

I am not a younster sympathetic to NK or sentimental for the progressive ideas. If you had admitted the problems with US military judicial system, I could go ahead farther on the solutions etc. Korean peninsula should have not been divided as we notice that more than 10 millions of people had to be split, scattered, separated from their own families, let alone the War which took the lives of 4 million. The division ignored the strong power and movement to get united again.

Please note that there was no SOFA agreement until 1967. Until that time 100% of USF crimes were handled by US alone. In 1967 there started to be SOFA agreement. At that time including the outstanding cases which may have been carried forwarded from the previous years, there were 2,029 criminals among the US personnel in 1967 and only 16 of them were punished by Korean Government, which means 0.8 % of the total crimes.
The fact that SOFA was revised because of the vehement requests by SK people on Dec 28, 2000 proves that during the period of 1967 thru 2000, there were lots of problems with USF and complaints by SK people. Even today there is a remarkable difference between how US deals the USF crimes in Japan and in Korea still.

I was deeply impressed when I travelled with an old man over 70 who was the chairman of a medium company supplying parts to Hyundai Motors. He was from the same Dept of Politics at Korea Univ as Chung, Seyoung the chairman of HMC then, and was with me on a boat crossing Rhein River. I was surprised to hear about his view on liberalizing NK at that time.

I am quite marture and feel the responsibility for the Re-unification and pray God for that. God may use NK problem in resolving Israel matters as a leverage, which is my view. I had an interesting and memorable discussion with Park, Jongwoong, the spokesman for the former Pres YS Kim as we were at the same class at the University, Kwon Okyu the new Deputy Prime Minister now and many more members of Parliament, Judges are my personal friends, one of them was the former Deputy Prime Minister for the Re-unification. I have a lot more thoughts to tell you but would spare my time.

 

[El_Guero]

So now you blame us for the war?

c) Another reason for such difference in viewing the Korean War is that the division of Korea by US had caused such tragedy [emphasis added] and that many Koreans believe that even 50,000 USF would not have been killed if US had not divided Korea into 2 pieces at Yalta Conference Feb 1945

 

[El_Guero]

John,

Let's pay him what his history lesson is worth. ZERO. Absolutely nothing.

But, we did get what we paid for.

1) I could not explain you in detail for each sentence and each argument in detail. Otherwise, you may have to pay me for the lesson of History.

 

[El_Guero]

All nations have the rights given by God, without being divided.

Now Korea is left as the only country in the world which is divided, even though they were not the war criminal country of the WWII.

I don't say that other countries don't make mistakes, but would say that, even US which I believe is the best country at the moment makes mistakes and we must be honest about such mistakes, so that we can humbly find out the solutions.

Likewise, Koreans had the right to live in Korea under their own government. Korea didn't provoke WWII, but Italy provoke the war, they were not divided but Korea had to be divided, and you can find that it was US that divided Korea into 2 pieces.

I am not sympathetic to NK, but quite strongly Re-unification oriented as God wants to heal the pains of the Korean nations.
Even today it is believed that over 10 millions have their families and relatives scattered between SK and NK, and God wants to heal the tragedy and the sorrow of theirs. [/quote]

 

[El_Guero]

my comment that US didn't contribute for the independence of Korea very much.

[my] misunderstanding was caused by 2 factors:
1) I could not explain you in detail for each sentence and each argument in detail. Otherwise, you may have to pay me for the lesson of History.

Interesting comments. Shortened to make sence of it all.

 

[John of Japan]

John,

Let's pay him what his history lesson is worth. ZERO. Absolutely nothing.

But, we did get what we paid for.

:thumbs: Gotta run--but I hope I can take time soon to give a lesson to him on how Korea could never have won WW2 by itself, without US help!

 

[El_Guero]

Korea has maintained the nationality for very long time, but US thought that they could divide the country in 30 minutes (http://division-of-korea.mindbit.com/)

I am not sympathetic to NK, but quite strongly Re-unification oriented as God wants to heal the pains of the Korean nations.
Even today it is believed that over 10 millions have their families and relatives scattered between SK and NK, and God wants to heal the tragedy and the sorrow of theirs.

Then attack. Go up to the border, fix your bayonet, and charge.

Let us know if it works.

 

[El_Guero]

PS Which dynasty do you want back in charge? Let's go back to the rightful dynasty. Wasn't that the: The Chosun Dynasty?

One united China! China would love to have Korea and Taiwan back.



Think about all the taxes you could pay!

:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

1. Please do not misunderstand my stance as condemning US is all the evil. I never said so. If I said it or implied it any where, show me !

I'm very glad to see this. Virtually everything you've written till now has been negative towards the US. It has looked to me like you are blaming the US for all the problems of a divided Korea.

3. One of the main reason why you get the impression from me that I am anti-American or I am showing all the ugly aspects of US army is simply because you do not accept the true facts and reality of the Non-Christian US citizens or the mistakes of US policies. The more you object to me, the stronger I had to convince you. Otherwise you would ignore or neglect such reality.

You must realize that to the typical American, Korea (and Japan and China) are far on the other side of the world. Few Americans have cause to think or care about Korea except for the US military people who have been stationed there or us missionaries.

2) another reason was that John may have little understanding about the modern history of Korea and didn't distinguish between Surrender of Japan and the Independence of Korea, or between Liberation of Korea and Establishment of Korea.
Korea was liberated on August 15, 1945, but
Korea became independent on August 15, 1948

My point was that America had to defeat Japan before there was any possibility of Korea becoming free from that absolutely brutal rule of Japan for those sad decades. If much American blood had not been shed to defeat Japan, Korea (and many other nations) would not have been free. You did not seem to acknowledge that.

Of course these types of resistances were almost negligible compared to the battles in the Pacific between Japan and US. The point here is that US didn't do very much for the independence of Korea during 1905-1945, but their focus was in getting the Surrender of Japanese.

Exactly my point. The surrender of Japan was absolutely necessary for the freedom of Korea.

As soon as US army landed into Korea, they started the martial rule since September 1945, one month later than USSR in North Korea.

Well of course they started martial rule. What else was there to do? Immediately let the Koreans rule themselves? Not landed any troops at all in Korea and thus let Russia take over the whole country? Is that what you would have wanted?

Korea was absolutely devastated by the war, as you know. They had no infrastructure of their own that was not controlled by the Japanese, no complete manufacturing system, no government people that were not puppets of Japan.

America put many millions of dollars and much effort into helping Korea stand on its own two feet after the war. Frankly, the war was so devastating to Korea that I think it would have taken four years or more to help Korea back onto its feet. Say, isn't that about the time from the end of WW2 to the Korean War? Yep!

They found that Only the rullers are changed from Japanese to US for the SK, to Russia for NK, with the worse condition as the country was to be divided, which never happened before in their history.

What you fail to understand is that there was no will in America at all for a war against Russia. Our homeland had been bled dry, our natural resources had been used up, our men and women had shed so much blood to make people around the world free from Japan and Germany and Italy. There was no will whatsoever in America at that time to fight the Russians and free NK.

As you yourself pointed out, Russia invaded NK before America even landed troops in SA. In my opinion, it was Russia's fault that Korea became divided. It was only due to America's help that SK became free. Yet you seem to think it was all America's fault. Why not put the blame for a divided Korea at the feet of Russia and their NK puppets?

In spite of all this, America stayed in Korea and shed precious blood to defend her from NK and China's attack in the Korean War. We could have left SK at that time, but we stayed and helped her fight. In point of fact, if it were not for General MacArthur's amazing victory at Inchon, we would have lost the war and SK would be communist. Christians would have been put to death and Koreans would have suffered tremendously. I have an uncle who fought in that war, and I thank him from the bottom of my heart for his sacrifices for America and for Korea. I wish you could, too.

Here what we have to pursue is not the view of any nation, but how God sees the world politics. When we read Dt 32:8 we find God assigned the territory for each nation, as is the case with Korea, and with Israel.

Think about this. Do you really believe that it was God's will for SK to be taken over by Russia, just so that Korea would be one nation and not divided? I believe that the division of Korea was God's will at that time so that SK could have freedom to believe in Jesus Christ. It is due to this division that SK is now 46% Christian. This could not have happened if America had not landed troops in SK after WW2--after the Russians invaded NK, mind you.

I don't say that other countries don't make mistakes, but would say that, even US which I believe is the best country at the moment makes mistakes and we must be honest about such mistakes, so that we can humbly find out the solutions.

I believe that America did their best for Korea at the time. There was no will or power at that time for the US to fight a brand new war against Russia right after WW2.

I am not sympathetic to NK, but quite strongly Re-unification oriented as God wants to heal the pains of the Korean nations.

Even today it is believed that over 10 millions have their families and relatives scattered between SK and NK, and God wants to heal the tragedy and the sorrow of theirs.

I too believe that it is high time for NK and SK to be united now. SK will have to pay a huge price for that unification, since NK is so desperately poor due to the depradations of communism. But it will be worth it for SK to see their loved ones in the north again and to be able to freely share our Savior Jesus Christ with them.

I have a deep respect for the Koreans, and still treasure a set of Korean wedding dolls given to me at Japanese language school 24 years ago by the Koreans who sang for us at Christmas. May God bring the two Koreas back together.raying:

 

[Eliyahu]

John's view is a typical American view which includes lots of misunderstanding or paradoxes, though some points are correct.

I'm very glad to see this. Virtually everything you've written till now has been negative towards the US. It has looked to me like you are blaming the US for all the problems of a divided Korea.

This is what I wanted to verify with you:

Have I ever said to you all that America is all the evil or US is all the time evil ? Nope! But some of you already indicated that I am asserting that.

The reason I had to strongly refute to you all was because you deny even the simple truth, i.e. Division of Korea, Crimes of GI's, The expected Aftermath of Pre-emptive Attack, etc. If you accepted the plain truth and fact, the debate would have gone far differently. The more you deny the truth, the stronger I had to refute and oppose to you.

My point was that America had to defeat Japan before there was any possibility of Korea becoming free from that absolutely brutal rule of Japan for those sad decades. If much American blood had not been shed to defeat Japan, Korea (and many other nations) would not have been free. You did not seem to acknowledge that.

Yes I do recognize that! I recognize such reality and truth. US was attacked by Japan, and therefore had to fight Japan, regardless of Independence of Korea. US had little mind to think about the independence of Korea.
Again, you don't distinguish between Surrender of Japan amd Indepenence of Korea. From the beginning, US had little idea to recognise the independence of Korea and therefore thought about UN Trusteeship Rule, not only Martial Rule, after September 1945.

Exactly my point. The surrender of Japan was absolutely necessary for the freedom of Korea.

Yes, as a bi-product of Japanese Surrender, Korea was liberated and therefore they could look forward to the independence. This is why I didn't say US didn't contribute to the independence at all, but not very much ( as many people misunderstand)

Well of course they started martial rule. What else was there to do? Immediately let the Koreans rule themselves? Not landed any troops at all in Korea and thus let Russia take over the whole country? Is that what you would have wanted?

Korea was absolutely devastated by the war, as you know. They had no infrastructure of their own that was not controlled by the Japanese, no complete manufacturing system, no government people that were not puppets of Japan.

America put many millions of dollars and much effort into helping Korea stand on its own two feet after the war. Frankly, the war was so devastating to Korea that I think it would have taken four years or more to help Korea back onto its feet. Say, isn't that about the time from the end of WW2 to the Korean War? Yep!

What you fail to understand is that there was no will in America at all for a war against Russia. Our homeland had been bled dry, our natural resources had been used up, our men and women had shed so much blood to make people around the world free from Japan and Germany and Italy. There was no will whatsoever in America at that time to fight the Russians and free NK.

As you yourself pointed out, Russia invaded NK before America even landed troops in SA. In my opinion, it was Russia's fault that Korea became divided. It was only due to America's help that SK became free. Yet you seem to think it was all America's fault. Why not put the blame for a divided Korea at the feet of Russia and their NK puppets?

In spite of all this, America stayed in Korea and shed precious blood to defend her from NK and China's attack in the Korean War. We could have left SK at that time, but we stayed and helped her fight. In point of fact, if it were not for General MacArthur's amazing victory at Inchon, we would have lost the war and SK would be communist. Christians would have been put to death and Koreans would have suffered tremendously. I have an uncle who fought in that war, and I thank him from the bottom of my heart for his sacrifices for America and for Korea. I wish you could, too.

YALTA CONFERENCE [Yalta Conference] meeting (Feb. 4-11, 1945), at Yalta, Crimea, USSR, of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, U.S. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin.

This part is the typical understanding of the most Americans'

I don't deny that US gave a lot of drugs to heal the diseases, after they gave the great Disease first, which was the division of Korea, the fundamental problem which last even today! You are talking about the pharmaceuticals given to Koreans by US only, not the other part, the big disease -dividing Korea!

But you must have read what I posted before.

The Division of Korea was proposed by US already in February 1945, far before USSR marched into NK on August 11, 1945.
FD Roosevelt proposed this to Russia, because US was battling with Japan in the Pacific severely and Japan was concentrating its forces to the South, US wanted another front line with Japan and wanted Russian involvement into the war against Japan very much and therefore offered some carrots to USSR, which was the division of Korea into 2 pieces.
Russia never had the idea of dividing Korea, but US proposed this. Russia marched into North Korea in order to comply with the agreement with US, in order to implement the Yalta Agreement. US could have suggested even parallel 39 instead of 38 on August 10, 1045. Then North Korea could have never invaded SK because NK would have been too small to attack SK.

I already showed you the site of US Army History.
Read this:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/y/yaltac1on.asp

Excerpts of it:


YALTA CONFERENCE [Yalta Conference] meeting (Feb. 4-11, 1945), at Yalta, Crimea, USSR, of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, U.S. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin. .............
The USSR secretly agreed to enter the war against Japan within three months of Germany's surrender and was promised S Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and an occupation zone in Korea.

It seems that only the concept of zoning itself was proposed by US and discussed at Yalta in February 1945, then parallel 38 was proposed in detail on August 10-12, 1945, by US.

Therefore your claim that USSR was responsible for the division of Korea is groundless. USSR is responsible for instigating NK to break Korean War, for assisting NK during Korean War, not for the division of Korea.

You must distinguish between Dividing a Nation of Korea, and Breaking Korean War.

Simply speaking, dividing Korea was done by US, Breaking Korean War was done by Russia ( as all the weapons were supplied by Russia and Stalin instructed it and Kim Ilsung was the puppet regime at that time)

I too believe that it is high time for NK and SK to be united now. SK will have to pay a huge price for that unification, since NK is so desperately poor due to the depradations of communism. But it will be worth it for SK to see their loved ones in the north again and to be able to freely share our Savior Jesus Christ with them.

I have a deep respect for the Koreans, and still treasure a set of Korean wedding dolls given to me at Japanese language school 24 years ago by the Koreans who sang for us at Christmas. May God bring the two Koreas back together.raying:

At this stage, majority of Koreans understand that Japan and China do not want the unification of Korea, even Russia is not in favor of Re-unification of Korea. China doesn't want to see the US Forces close to their border in case Korea is unified in SK led manner, Japan is afraid about the situation where Korea becomes powerful enough to revenge for their atrocities during the colony period, Russia doesn't want the direct confrontation with US forces too. US is in favor of Re-unification led by SK, which may include even the use of the forces. Koreans want to limit the method to the peaceful solutions as they experienced the calamity enough.
Many of the NK related policies are discussed and anounced based on such notions and beliefs, ignoring the desires of Korean people for the Re-unification.
This is why Korea is not re-unified even today.

 

[Eliyahu]

Think about this. Do you really believe that it was God's will for SK to be taken over by Russia, just so that Korea would be one nation and not divided? I believe that the division of Korea was God's will at that time so that SK could have freedom to believe in Jesus Christ. It is due to this division that SK is now 46% Christian. This could not have happened if America had not landed troops in SK after WW2--after the Russians invaded NK, mind you.

If US didn't provide the North part of Korea to Russia at the Yalta Conference, USSR would have never marched into NK. USSR came into NK in August 1945 in order to implement what was agreed upon at Yalta Conference Feb 1945

Please note that about 30% SK are protestants, 10% Catholic, 20% Buddhists, rests have no religion, 30% Protestants include various people like JW and Yongki Cho's full gospel ( Pentecost), and many others. God may know the exact number of His people.

I don't believe that the division of Korea at the Yalta Conference in February 1945 was the God's will, but believe that it maybe the will of Satan which causes the murder and war all the time. God could foresee the problems and disasters of separating the families between 2 Koreas.

You must know that North Korea had the most number of Christians in Korea before 1945, more than 80% of Korean Christians were in North Korea. I told you Pyong Yang was often called Jerusalem of East Asia and had many Christian schools, including one famous seminary of Theology, Soong-Sil College. Many believers martyred in Pyongyang when Japan forced the Shinto worship.

Look at Japan and Philippines which were protected by US as well. Do they have many Christians? Korean Christianity is the result of various factors. If US was the main factor for Christianity, why are there not many Christians in Japan or in Philippines? I believe it is related to the level of National Repentance, while the peace and the economic success are the result of moral and law observance.

I don't count Catholics as born again believers in general, even though there may be some among them.

The biggest church in Seoul in my school days were Young-Rak church which had 30,000 at that time. There were 91 elders there and 90 of them were from North Korea. Korean Christianity was greatlly influenced by NK people when they came down from north during the Korean War.

in 19 c. there were many missionaries, from US and from England, also some from China and in the beginning of 20 c, there were a lot of Christians in Pyongyang area.

God doesn't want to split a nation, but a human ignorance makes such hasty decision.

I believe that America did their best for Korea at the time. There was no will or power at that time for the US to fight a brand new war against Russia right after WW2.

Yes, I fully agree that US sacrificed quite a lot, and did their best since Korean War.

This doesn't mean that they did very well when they divided Korea into 2 pieces at Yalta Conference in February 1945. Nobody forced US suggest the division of Korea into 2 pieces at the Conference, which caused a tremenous tragedy of a nation.

 

[Eliyahu]

There are many misunderstandings about Korea, which may cause many mistakes in decision making or policy making often. I would show you one example of them.

Some of you asked me the evidence of an example, here is an illustration.

Quote:


Korea is a peninsula east of China. It became part of the Chinese Empire in 1637 and did not receive its independence until 1895 (Treaty of Shimonoseki)

unquote

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWkorea.htm


My answer:

But please find that Korea made a Treaty of Amity and Commerce with US in 1882 and it was ratified in 1883. How could US enter a treaty with Chosun if it was a part of China?

http://www.kimsoft.com/2005/1882ChemulpoTreaty.htm

Not only with US, but also with England, Germany, and with Russia, Chosun ( former Korea) made the Treaty in 1883-1884.

Moreover, there was a treaty which defines the border line between Ching ( China established by Manchurian people, not by Chinese) and Chosun in 1712. They established a monument on Baekdoo mountain after there were disputes on the territory, which defines the territory between China and Korea.
China is concerned about the potential dispute with Korea in case Korea is reunified, about the territory, which is one of the reasons why China doesn't want the reunification of Korea, as the South Eastern Part of Manchuria is highly inhabited by Koreans and the monument clearly mentions that the area belongs to Korea.

This shows some ignorance about the Korean history.

 

[Eliyahu]

Division of Korea occurred in 2 steps:

1. The first step was done at Yalta Conference February 1945

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/Y/YaltaCon.asp

"The USSR secretly agreed to enter the war against Japan within three months of Germany's surrender and was promised S Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and an occupation zone in Korea."


2. the second step was done by 2 US personnel on August 10, 1945

US Army history
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/pd-c-01.htm

On August 10 1945 there was a meeting of commissions of the ministry of the exterior, the ministry of war and the ministry of marines. As part of this meeting, the two young officers Dean Rusk and Charles Bonesteel were given the task to come up with a plan on how to divide the Korean peninsula. The time allocated for this undertaking was half an hour, the officers had little knowledge of the area and used a National Geographic map to divide the peninsula along the 38th parallel, thus splitting it exactly in half.

The Division of Korea along the 38th parallel was decided in America before the Korean people even knew about the capitulation of the Japanese empire. Japan officially surrendered to the Allies on 14 August, 1945.


At this time US could have suggested 39 parallel or 38.5 parallel, which could have made far difficult for NK to invade SK.

Such division was done in 30 minutes by 2 personnels.


In my view, even today US makes mistakes in foreign policy, let alone other countries.

I am convinced that US should have not invaded Iraq, not because Iraq was OK, but because US should have spared the power and money for dealing with Iran which was quite apparently arising problem at that time. Later on US will realize that they gained nothing from the war after sacrificing thousands of lives there, only to help Iran to secure the Shiite government thru Iraq and Syria up to Lebanon, so that the Iranian army can reach the mountain of Israel as Ezekiel prophesied in 38:8, 39:2

If US didn't divide Korea in 1945, they would not have to sacrifice thousands of lives during the Korean War, or if they secured parallel 39, then NK would not dare to provoke the war so easily.

I

 

[Eliyahu]

Division of Korea occurred in 2 steps:

1. The first step was done at Yalta Conference February 1945

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/Y/YaltaCon.asp

"The USSR secretly agreed to enter the war against Japan within three months of Germany's surrender and was promised S Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and an occupation zone in Korea."


2. the second step was done by 2 US personnel on August 10, 1945

US Army history
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/pd-c-01.htm

On August 10 1945 there was a meeting of commissions of the ministry of the exterior, the ministry of war and the ministry of marines. As part of this meeting, the two young officers Dean Rusk and Charles Bonesteel were given the task to come up with a plan on how to divide the Korean peninsula. The time allocated for this undertaking was half an hour, the officers had little knowledge of the area and used a National Geographic map to divide the peninsula along the 38th parallel, thus splitting it exactly in half.

The Division of Korea along the 38th parallel was decided in America before the Korean people even knew about the capitulation of the Japanese empire. Japan officially surrendered to the Allies on 14 August, 1945.


At this time US could have suggested 39 parallel or 38.5 parallel, which could have made far difficult for NK to invade SK.

Such division was done in 30 minutes by 2 personnels.


In my view, even today US makes mistakes in foreign policy, let alone other countries.

I am convinced that US should have not invaded Iraq, not because Iraq was OK, but because US should have spared the power and money for dealing with Iran which was quite apparently arising problem at that time. Later on US will realize that they gained nothing from the war after sacrificing thousands of lives there, only to help Iran to secure the Shiite government thru Iraq and Syria up to Lebanon, so that the Iranian army can reach the mountain of Israel as Ezekiel prophesied in 38:8, 39:2

If US didn't divide Korea in 1945, they would not have to sacrifice thousands of lives during the Korean War, or if they secured parallel 39, then NK would not dare to provoke the war so easily.

I just wanted to point out the human destiny and errors, which eventually (indirectly) caused the second largest tragedy in the 20 century, next to Holocaust, the Korean tragedy.

 

[Eliyahu]

Division of Japan imagined (1)

John,

Still you may not understand the problems caused by human policies.
Therefore let me explain this way.

Let’s assume that US proposed Russia the post-war plan at Yalta Conference that 2 countries would share Japan into 2 pieces because Japan is a War Criminal country which caused WWII and a lot of atrocities in China and in Korea, and in South Asia.
North Japan will be occupied by Russia, and South Japan will be occupied by US.
Franklin D Roosevelt suggested this plan and Stalin accepted it pleasingly, at the Yalta Conference which was held in Yalta, Crimea, in the southern Russia, in February 7-11. 1945.

Before that, US was battling in the Pacific ocean terribly with Japanese, and Japanese were concentrating its forces to the South, to the Pacific islands, and therefore the Japanese army in the North such as in Manchuria, in Korea, Hokaido were almost nothing even though their titles ( [FONT=&#44404]關東軍[/FONT] ) sounded great and pretended to have heavy armaments. US knew this fact and desperately wanted Russia to declare the war against Japan, but Russia said “ we have a Non-Invasion Treaty with Japan and have to fight Germany desperately” Then US said “ Within one month after Germany surrenders, please declare the war against Japan, then we will share Japan with you by half and half which may be around longitude 138 East ” Russia accepted and said “OK”

US was fighting Japan in Philippines, Guam, Saipan, losing many lives in the islands, while Russia was starting to land on Hokaido, Aomori, Niikata, northern part of Japan since June 1945. Then US would have noticed Russia is occupying Japan faster than US, then US hurried to suggest the line of division such as Shizuoka-Fujiyama which allows North Japan to include Tokyo, Shendai, Niikata, while South Japan will have Nagoya, Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe. But the battle in the south was still fierce and US had to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki, then Japan surrendered.
As scheduled and agreed, Russia occupied North Japan and US occupied South Japan. The whole land of Japan was already devastated quite a lot by air bombing and even by atom bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Then Japanese would have realized that the country is divided, devastated, nuked, condemned as war criminal country. They find themselves hopeless.

North Japan would say that the communism is the only way to recover from the disaster and to achieve the equality of the economy and would claim “ both South and North Japan should be united and the capital should be Tokyo, US is our enemy because they nuked us while Russia never did such cruelty!”
Then under the instigation and instruction by Russian Stalin and Chinese Mao Tse Tung, North Japan invaded South Japan ( as Japan had the civil wars and turmoil before Toyotomi Hideyoshi unified Japan in 16 century), and they expected to unify Japan quickly because there is a strong nationalism to get together, so the Japanese War broke out, resulting in the death of 10 million ( in proportion to Korean War), devastating the whole country into ashes. At that time, thankfully US assisted South Japan by sending the troops, sacrificing 100,000 lives and finally reached the truce line like Fujiyama-Shizuoka line. US had a good chance to dispose the excessive inventory of weapons left over from the WWII.

As Tokyo Governor Ishihara said, to the luck of Korea, Japanese War broke out and thereby Korea could become the sources of supplies to Japanese War and could enjoy the rapid growth of economy there and become one of the powerful, economic countries in the world.
After the Japanese War, South Japan recovered its economy quite a lot with the assistance of US.
But South Japan is still confronting North Japan, have US army stationed inside, and some of them cause a lot of crimes, but South Japan has to tolerate it because US always say “ we are here to protect you and shed the blood to defend your country” You will have no jurisdiction on the US personnel in Japan for 50 years.
“You have to pay the expense for our troops in your country as we protect you ( South Korea currently pays 1.6-2 billion USD for US army every year plus relocation cost for 11-20 Billion Dollars) “
US still have a good chance for the weapons industries to sell the weapons to South Japan during the cold war.

North Japan realizes that they are more threatened by US since the collapse of the communist USSR, then tries to develop nuke weapons and test missiles. Then US try to take the pre-emptive attacks to North Japan which may jeopardize the whole country again into the second Japanese War. Still tens of millions of Japanese have their family members and relatives scattered between North Japan and South Japan.

 

[Eliyahu]

Division of Japan imagined (2)

Will you still be thankful to US for the sacrifice in the Japanese War and for the army stationed in the South Japan, for trying to attack North Japan?
You may have to be thankful to US still but you may be concerned about the potential war with North Japan again as the next war would cause much more casualties.

Would you say that:

“Under the heaven, on the earth we have no way other than by US, by which we could achieve the freedom of democracy and the prosperity of economy, and therefore we praise US, we adore US!
If US army leave South Japan, we would follow them! Because there would have been no way to have the freedom and the prosperity without US!

Division of Japan was inevitable in order to prevent Russia from invading the whole Japan and therefore we should be satisfied with the freedom of South Japan at least.

Sex crimes in Okinawa should be tolerated, any murder by US forces is nothing important even though we didn’t have any jurisdiction for 50 years until 2000.

Any protest or demonstration against this great US is crazy!
Those protestors are all communists!”

“US, please bombard North Japan, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb North Japan! “

" We thank US for having divided Japan into 2 pieces because otherwise we all would have become communist country!, Oh Wonderful US !"

Will you say so? Tell me your answer!

You may say that we don’t have such man like Kim Ilsung in Japan.
But please remember that Emperor Hirohito was worshipped as God or Son of God before the end of WWII, and many Japanese committed suicides when Hirohito declared he is not God any more in 1945.
Do you know how much poverty Japanese did suffer during the WWII? Many people committed suicide. My father attempted the suicide in Japan because there was little food in 1945 there. He went to the country side out of Osaka to get the rice from there.

If the situation becomes like that, and if North Japanese had become the communist country which is a kind of Anti-Christian religion, their leader would have become like a religious leader and it would not be too difficult for you to imagine how the country can become so crazy.


Even though you may say “ we deserve this calamity because we were the war criminal country for WWII”, Korea was not such war criminal country but became the victim of such human policy.

Would you still claim that it was very much wise, and inevitable decision that US divided Japan into 2 pieces because, otherwise Russia would have made the whole Japan the communist country ? Yes, it would be better than the whole land becoming the communist country, but was it( dividing the country) the only solution to find out at that moment?

Throughout the world, Korea has remained as the only country which is divided even today.
So, try to imagine yourself in the shoes of Koreans.

If it was US that divided Korea into 2 pieces, wouldn’t it be right that US work for the reunification of Korea now ?


There is an interesting article written by an American who says

“We are not worth more, they are not worth less”
[FONT=바탕]When will the United States Apologize for its War Crimes?[/FONT]

http://www.brianwillson.com/awolkoreacl.html

His articles are the followings:
§ [FONT=바탕]KOREA [/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]The First U.S. Korean War[/FONT][FONT=바탕] Summer 2000 (posted 09/2001)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]The Unknown Truth about Korea: U.S. Sanctioned Death Squads and War Crimes, 1945-1953[/FONT][FONT=바탕] 2001 (posted 09/2001)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]Korea, Like Vietnam: A War Originated and Maintained by Deceit[/FONT][FONT=바탕] Dec. 1999 (posted 04/2000)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]Revealing Historic Truths as Foundation for Korean Reunification on its Own Terms: Report of Korean Truth Commission Delegation to Korea, August 9-17, 2000[/FONT][FONT=바탕] Aug. 21, 2000 (posted 09/2001)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]When will the United States Apologize for its War Crimes? Importance of the Korea Truth Commission to this End[/FONT][FONT=바탕] Sept. 8, 2001 (posted 09/2001)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]Depleted Uranium[/FONT][FONT=바탕] revised Sept. 25, 2003 (posted 05/2000)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]"Forgotten" Crimes Continue to be Revealed at Various Locations in Korea: Germ Warfare in South Korea?[/FONT][FONT=바탕] Aug. 30, 2001 (posted 09/2001)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]Revelations Continue to Mount of U.S. War Crimes in Korea[/FONT][FONT=바탕] Aug. 21, 2001 (posted 09/2001)[/FONT]

· [FONT=바탕]History of U.S. Sabotage of Korean Peace and Reunification[/FONT][FONT=바탕] revised Sept. 8, 2001 (posted 09/2001)[/FONT]

http://www.brianwillson.com/essaylist.html


Most Koreans believe that Korean War would have not taken place if it was not divided, Korea would have not divided if Japan didn't colonize Korea.
You may say that they were the problems of 60-100 years ago and should be forgotten, but the Lord says this:

Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. (Mt 5:26)

 

[LadyEagle]

Thread closing warning: This thread is over the 10-page limit and will be closed no sooner than 3:00 a.m. ET by one of the moderators.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

[John of Japan]

I have to say it has been interesting, Eliyahu. I have learned from you about Korean history, but I must say that I don't trust you when you write about the American part in all of this. You didn't understand common America terms such as "honorable discharge" or "innocent plea." You seem to be so prejudiced against America that any American accused of a crime in the press, such as the case of the one in Iraq, is automatically guilty (though you did express once that America was a good country).

A friendly word of advice: if you wish to convince us Americans of your position, give us the benefit of the doubt. Don't be so quick to judge Americans as guilty based simply on what the secular media says.

Besides, Korea has conquored America, has it not? After all, we have a Tae Kwon Do school in every town! :thumbs: :laugh:

 

[Eliyahu]

Thank you John, anyway, for all the kind words.
I would not say at all America is all the evil, but US would often makes mistakes, as US is full of many unbelievers, or even though the politicians were the Christians they might have leaned on the non-Christian public opinion, or even the believers made the wrong judgment.
I would not say that US was worse than any other country but has made many errors and showed many ugly behaviors thru the army personnel as well.
There is no reason for the Christians to advocate the non-christian, anti-christian criminals, nor should Christians take the responsibility for such crimes. We should keep the distance from the non-Christians.

Since I served in the army for 32 months, I know the concept of Honorable Discharges but also know that there is a term for Dishonorable Discharge as well. I know the judicial procedures and admit that US judicial system and procedures are better than Korean ways. But such better system or protection is not practiced at the military court or by the military organization abroad outside US, especially in Korea.

I showed you that it was US that divided Korea at Yalta Conference.
If US did so, then it is high time that US should work for the Reunification of Korea.
I don't think the Rear Gear shifting to backward would not work for NK case. The best chance to resolve the NK problem was when General D MacArthur insisted on bombing Manchuria, which was rejected by Harry Truman. The second best chance was when NK withdrew from NPT in 1993, but B Clinton chose the soft diplomacy reaching Geneva Treaty.
Now. after wasting a lot of time and missing the best chances, returning to the hardline confrontation shows slim feasibility.
Often I notice US follow my idea 5-6 years later after I thought about.
They should have undermined NK and cultivated the dissent group or people by accepting Refugees from NK thru consulates, while providing the minimum humanitarian aids to them, expecting the change of the regime eventually. If Bush Admin didn't stop the supply of Diesel since Nov 2002, then NK wouldn't have expelled IAEA inspectors, then NK could not accelerate the Nuke program. In the meantime US could have accepted Refugees and we could have worked out some good progress to cultivate the dissent group in NK or could let NK people know the truth of the world and the problems with their leaders, by now.
Maybe, NK regime may have collapsed already by now.

There are such possiblity there because NK people were originally Christians. Before 1945, 90% of Korean Christians were in North Korea, 80% of them were in Pyongando Province surrounding Pyong Yang, and Kim Ilsungs grand father was a Presbyterian Pastor, but Kim became a guerrilla leader and his family is still struggling the continued battle now.

God may know the best solution and I would humbly listen to Him for His work. It was enjoyable for me to exchange the thoughts with you. May God bless you in Christ.