Japan mulls pre-emptive strike against N Korea

[John of Japan]

You're right John. The army tries very hard to get it's people to behave in foreign lands. Not always successfully!
25 years is a long time. I admire your commitment

Thank you. Only by God's grace do I brace this culture! raying:

 

[Eliyahu]

Regarding the man killed by a thrown piece of wood in 1967; the soldier who was invloved, Spc John Vaughn, was arrested by Korean police and tried in a Korean court.

Yes you are correct that we are all subject to judgement by God. But His judgement may not be the same as you think.

I am not sure whether you are talking about the same case as I mentioned. What was the punishment for him ? Do you know ?

 

[Eliyahu]

In the case of the tank that killed two girls in 2002, it was judged to be an accident because it was...an accident.

but do you think an American soldier did that intentionally?

But His judgement may not be the same as you think.

It was not intentional but was an accident due to the negligence which resulted from the habitual ignorance of local people by USFK. The driver could have avoided the accident if he valued the lives of the young girls as important. Do you know that USFK paid 6,000 Dollars to their family as a compensation for the death ? People just laughed at it.

His judgment may not be the same as you and Americans think either.

 

[Eliyahu]

In our 25 years in Japan here, I've read about arrests and prosecution by the Japanese of many Americans over the years stupid enough to risk the extremely strict Japanese prison system. So I've been wondering about these charges by Eliyahu about the SOF in Korea.

John, you must note that there is a considerable difference between how USFK deals with Korean people and how USF in Japan deals with Japanese people, even the SOFA agreement is different from that for Japan and for German quite a lot, which has caused a lot of anger, even though such discrimination has been reduced and the situation has been improved quite a lot since Dec 28 2000.

 

[John of Japan]

John, you must note that there is a considerable difference between how USFK deals with Korean people and how USF in Japan deals with Japanese people, even the SOFA agreement is different from that for Japan and for German quite a lot, which has caused a lot of anger, even though such discrimination has been reduced and the situation has been improved quite a lot since Dec 28 2000.

My opinion--though I can't prove it--is that NK is the author of much of the resentment and hate being stirred up against Americans and American forces in SK. From what I see in the Japanese news, demonstrations by the radical left student movement are a main source of the discontent. Stirring up the students is a standard ploy by Communists. I know--my brother was a Communist agitator in the US in the 1970's.

So, Eliyahu, here is a personal question. Don't answer it if you don't want to. Are you personally grateful for how America defeated Japan and gave freedom to SK, and then defended her in the Korean Conflict? Or is that just so much water under the bridge to you?

 

[Eliyahu]

My opinion--though I can't prove it--is that NK is the author of much of the resentment and hate being stirred up against Americans and American forces in SK. From what I see in the Japanese news, demonstrations by the radical left student movement are a main source of the discontent. Stirring up the students is a standard ploy by Communists. I know--my brother was a Communist agitator in the US in the 1970's.

So, Eliyahu, here is a personal question. Don't answer it if you don't want to. Are you personally grateful for how America defeated Japan and gave freedom to SK, and then defended her in the Korean Conflict? Or is that just so much water under the bridge to you?

Partly the agitators are NK spies or the leftists. But much more portion of the medium classes of Koreans were very much annoyed by the criminals of USFK and by the fact that such crimes are not punished properly.Most of the Koreans know this problem, even though some are rather tolerant, or others are less tolerant.
I personally don't think US contribution to the independence of Korea very much, even though it was a part of the whole situation. There were considerable acitivites by Korean Resistance too. The tragedy following the division of Korea by US caused the disastor and the killing spree.
Everything tells us that what God didn't do or what the people didn't do according to the guidance of God causes tremendous problems, which are done by most politicians even today.

 

[John of Japan]

I personally don't think US contribution to the independence of Korea very much, even though it was a part of the whole situation. There were considerable acitivites by Korean Resistance too. The tragedy following the division of Korea by US caused the disastor and the killing spree.
Everything tells us that what God didn't do or what the people didn't do according to the guidance of God causes tremendous problems, which are done by most politicians even today.

So the US and British defeating the Japanese in the Phillipines, China, the Ryukyu islands, etc. didn't help Korea at all? Hmm. Kind of a "Korea-centric" view, methinks.

What about the Korean Conflict? Could SK have beaten the NK Army and the Chinese without the US?

 

[NiteShift]

I am not sure whether you are talking about the same case as I mentioned. What was the punishment for him ? Do you know ?

No Eliyahu, I do not know what the soldier's punishment was.

Here is the AP new item from 1967:

South Korea Tries U.S. Soldier

CHONGJU, South Korea, Oct 30 (AP) -
US Army Spec 4, John L. Vaughn, 20, of
Douglasville, Ga., went on trial in Chongju
district Court today on a charge of inflicting
bodily injury resulting in the death of a
Korean man.
Vaughn was indicted Sept. 2. He is accused
of throwing a block of wood from a moving
truck July 23, hitting Lee Dok-shin, 59, who
was riding on a bicycle. Lee fell and suffered
fatal head injuries.
Vaugh, assigned to a missile artillery
battery, is the second American service-
man to be tried by a Korean court under
the US-Korean Status of Forces Agree-
ment effective since February.

 

[NiteShift]

I personally don't think US contribution to the independence of Korea very much, even though it was a part of the whole situation. There were considerable acitivites by Korean Resistance too. The tragedy following the division of Korea by US caused the disastor and the killing spree.

Ok, it's all the American's fault. All bad things are the American's fault.

Feel better now?

 

[fromtheright]

Niteshift,

Yeah, that's the same message I got from him. Never mind that the North Korean government is unmitigated evil and are (and were) the aggressors across that border. That's

 

[fromtheright]

Niteshift,

Yeah, that's the same message I got from him. Never mind that the North Korean government is unmitigated evil and are (and were) the aggressors across that border. That's why I dropped the exchange (well actually, I guess, we both did).

 

[Eliyahu]

No Eliyahu, I do not know what the soldier's punishment was.

Here is the AP new item from 1967:

South Korea Tries U.S. Soldier

CHONGJU, South Korea, Oct 30 (AP) -
US Army Spec 4, John L. Vaughn, 20, of
Douglasville, Ga., went on trial in Chongju
district Court today on a charge of inflicting
bodily injury resulting in the death of a
Korean man.
Vaughn was indicted Sept. 2. He is accused
of throwing a block of wood from a moving
truck July 23, hitting Lee Dok-shin, 59, who
was riding on a bicycle. Lee fell and suffered
fatal head injuries.
Vaugh, assigned to a missile artillery
battery, is the second American service-
man to be tried by a Korean court under
the US-Korean Status of Forces Agree-
ment effective since February.

It sounds very similar to what I remember that happened in my home town, Jeonju, not Chongju. I am not sure that it is the very case, though.

 

[John of Japan]

Niteshift,

Yeah, that's the same message I got from him. Never mind that the North Korean government is unmitigated evil and are (and were) the aggressors across that border. That's why I dropped the exchange (well actually, I guess, we both did).

Seems like if the US forces were as evil as Eliyahu says, we'd be out of Korea by now, like the Philippines decided we were persona non grata (not that they are better off now). Seems like the SK government (and I believe the majority of the people) still need us! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[John of Japan]

So the US and British defeating the Japanese in the Phillipines, China, the Ryukyu islands, etc. didn't help Korea at all? Hmm. Kind of a "Korea-centric" view, methinks.

What about the Korean Conflict? Could SK have beaten the NK Army and the Chinese without the US?

Eliyahu, you still have not answered this. What do you think?

And what about the faithful missionaries from America (and other countries) who laid the foundation and sowed the seeds so that Korea is now 46% Christian? Do you feel any gratefulness for that at all?

I have a hard time believing that you think the US is the source of all evil in Korea, and has done nothing good at all there. That is so one-sided!!

 

[Rippon]

I haven't followed this whole thread , but I will have to disagree with the sentiments of Eliyahu . The USA has done and continues to do wonderful things for South Korea . There will always be a microscopic minority which gives Americans ( especially the US military ) a black eye .

There are a number of NGO's that are sympathetic with the goals of the North Korean regime ( not the poor , destitute population ) . Many folks under the age of roughly 50 make me feel uncomfortable with their view of the world . Some do consider America the enemy . But they are ambivalent . They want to live in America and enjoy its prosperity . This is summed up in the old phrase : "America leave Korea now -- and take me with you ."

Many South Korean citizens are not as familiar with their 20th century Korean history . I don't know if many go along with North Korea's mantra that the USA invaded Korea and caused the Korean War though ! I would feel very uncomfortable if that were the case .

The unfortunate incident in June of 2002 was an excuse for a number of South Koreans to vent their pent-up frustrations on Westerners here . Their candle-light vigils were frought with a mop mentality . I had a number of unpleasant encounters even a year after the deaths of the two young women . I had friends from various countries who also had some unsavory experiences .

I have a young Christian friend here . He is an officer in a medical unit . He told me last Sunday that he lives for the times when he can go out on missions to help South Koreans . There has been a lot of flooding here lately . Lives and property have been lost . He wants to aid as many folks as possible . His attitude is not an isolated one .

I am rambling here -- kind of a stream of consciousness . I echo basically what John of Japan has said .

 

[John of Japan]

Well rambled, Rippon! :thumbs:

 

[El_Guero]

The older generation still thanks the USA for bleeding for them.

The younger generation has a few discontents that truly have difficulty dealing with 'freedom of speech'. In the Korean culture, it is offensive to talk badly about older Koreans. It is not near as offensive to talk badly about Americans. IMHO this disparity allows many to vent upon Americans while allowing their elders freedom to beat into submission younger Koreans that disrespect their elders.

The pent up anger is such an irony. But, even greater is the ironic protests into the face of watter cannons & tear gas - but let a nice cold snow or rain start and the protesters quietly break up. I asked about that once, and the reply was that the 'acid rain can harm you, don't you know that?' Like water cannons don't break bones? Tear gas doesn't hurt? Riot batons don't cause concussions?

Oh well ... More American blood will be shed so that many more malcontents can become angry with America.

But, while the American light is still almost high - we need to reach the world for the lost. Soon, we will not be able to.

 

[John of Japan]

The older generation still thanks the USA for bleeding for them.

The younger generation has a few discontents that truly have difficulty dealing with 'freedom of speech'. In the Korean culture, it is offensive to talk badly about older Koreans. It is not near as offensive to talk badly about Americans. IMHO this disparity allows many to vent upon Americans while allowing their elders freedom to beat into submission younger Koreans that disrespect their elders.

The pent up anger is such an irony. But, even greater is the ironic protests into the face of watter cannons & tear gas - but let a nice cold snow or rain start and the protesters quietly break up. I asked about that once, and the reply was that the 'acid rain can harm you, don't you know that?' Like water cannons don't break bones? Tear gas doesn't hurt? Riot batons don't cause concussions?

Oh well ... More American blood will be shed so that many more malcontents can become angry with America.

But, while the American light is still almost high - we need to reach the world for the lost. Soon, we will not be able to.

Good post, El Guero. "I must work the works of him who sent me while it is day. The night comes, when no man works."

 

[El_Guero]

Good post, El Guero. "I must work the works of him who sent me while it is day. The night comes, when no man works."

And that dark, dark, dark night comes soon.

 

[Eliyahu]

Hi everyone on this thread!
I have been away and so busy in the meantime. This issue has become stale and may not be interesting to you guys very much these days. But I notice there are some crucial misunderstanding on my stance and I need to clarify some of them at least, though my time may not allow me to convince you enough.

1. Please do not misunderstand my stance as condemning US is all the evil. I never said so. If I said it or implied it any where, show me !

2. The main reason why I raised the issue about the problems with US is because there are a lots of miunderstandings among US people, which I believe was caused by News media, text books etc.
I will illustrate these examples as many as possible, as long as the time allows me to.

3. One of the main reason why you get the impression from me that I am anti-American or I am showing all the ugly aspects of US army is simply because you do not accept the true facts and reality of the Non-Christian US citizens or the mistakes of US policies. The more you object to me, the stronger I had to convince you. Otherwise you would ignore or neglect such reality.

4. All of us may belong to different, various countries and nationalities. If we stand or become busy in defending the countries where everyone belongs to, then we can hardly find the con-sensus for all. But if we pursue the guidance of Holy Spirit and how God sees the world now, then we will not differ each other very much, but find very useful consensus each other.

In the following posts, I will point out some of the problems or misunderstandings by you.

So the US and British defeating the Japanese in the Phillipines, China, the Ryukyu islands, etc. didn't help Korea at all? Hmm. Kind of a "Korea-centric" view, methinks.

What about the Korean Conflict? Could SK have beaten the NK Army and the Chinese without the US?

This was the response from John about my comment that US didn't contribute for the independence of Korea very much.

This type of misunderstanding was caused by 2 factors:
1) I could not explain you in detail for each sentence and each argument in detail. Otherwise, you may have to pay me for the lesson of History.

2) another reason was that John may have little understanding about the modern history of Korea and didn't distinguish between Surrender of Japan and the Independence of Korea, or between Liberation of Korea and Establishment of Korea.
Korea was liberated on August 15, 1945, but
Korea became independent on August 15, 1948

There was a lot of turmoil in Korea between 1945 and 1948.
US was quiet since the Japanese annexation in 1910. Actually US had the Treaty with Korea since 1882. ( http://www.kimsoft.com/2005/1882ChemulpoTreaty.htm) but US betrayed such treaty when they made a tacit agreement with Japan called Taft-Katsura agreement ( Memo) which allows Japanese priority over Korea and US right over Philippines. There were many US Christian missionaries and they opposed to such annexation, and sometimes appealed to US government for the independence of Korea but they were rejected.
Around 1910 when Japan annexed Korea, there were lots of resistance by Koreans, and the Japanese officical records show that they killed over 17,000 Korean resistance and wounded over a hundred thousands, tortured and imprisoned over a hundred thousands.
In 1918, Woodrow Wilson declared about the self determination which triggerred the independence movement in Korea in 1919. At that time Japanese government brutally killed 8,000 civilian demonstrators, arrested and tortured over hundred thousands, but US overlooked them.
Since then Koreans established a government in exile, in Choongching, China, some of them defeated Japanese troops of 20,000, killing 10,000 of them at Chungsanri, in Manchuria in a single battle.
Of course these types of resistances were almost negligible compared to the battles in the Pacific between Japan and US. The point here is that US didn't do very much for the independence of Korea during 1905-1945, but their focus was in getting the Surrender of Japanese.

As soon as US army landed into Korea, they started the martial rule since September 1945, one month later than USSR in North Korea.
Koreans expected they would have an independent government for the whole Korea, but realized that US was occupying SK and USSR NK.
They found that Only the rullers are changed from Japanese to US for the SK, to Russia for NK, with the worse condition as the country was to be divided, which never happened before in their history.
They started to resist the rule in both area, SK and NK.
US noticed the strong desire of Koreans for the independence. Then they held a meeting in Moscow in December 1945, so called 4 foreign ministers conference in Moscow, declared on Dec 27, 1945( http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/decade/decade19.htm)
They declared Korea should undergo UN Trusteeship Rule for 5 years, which meant another colonization of Korea for another five years.
There were lots of resistance for the independence in Korea, both in SK and in NK. But in NK, Kim, Ilsung brought the message from USSR that they should accept whatever is instructed by USSR and therefore it became quiet there.
There were lots of political movement for the independence and turmoil there in SK since then and they established the independent government in SK on Aug 15, 1948. In the whole process, US government lacked the understanding about the history of Korea and the concept of one nation.

Korea has maintained the nationality for very long time, but US thought that they could divide the country in 30 minutes (http://division-of-korea.mindbit.com/)

If you read the modern history of Korea, you can find that US was not very much interested in the independence of Korea, but in Surrender of Japanese, Occupying South Korea, Confrontation with Russians coming south.
During 1945-1948, there were lots of Korean resistance and movements for the independence.


Here what we have to pursue is not the view of any nation, but how God sees the world politics. When we read Dt 32:8 we find God assigned the territory for each nation, as is the case with Korea, and with Israel.

All nations have the rights given by God, without being divided.

Now Korea is left as the only country in the world which is divided, even though they were not the war criminal country of the WWII.

I don't say that other countries don't make mistakes, but would say that, even US which I believe is the best country at the moment makes mistakes and we must be honest about such mistakes, so that we can humbly find out the solutions.



Likewise, Koreans had the right to live in Korea under their own government. Korea didn't provoke WWII, but Italy provoke the war, they were not divided but Korea had to be divided, and you can find that it was US that divided Korea into 2 pieces.

The following site is US Army History, and therefore you may trust it.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/pd-c-01.htm


I am not sympathetic to NK, but quite strongly Re-unification oriented as God wants to heal the pains of the Korean nations.
Even today it is believed that over 10 millions have their families and relatives scattered between SK and NK, and God wants to heal the tragedy and the sorrow of theirs.