Japan mulls pre-emptive strike against N Korea

Hmm, CID, Criminal Investigative Dept. Sounds like the Army treats this as a crime, not as a sport as you so flippantly accused.

 

Eliyahu,

Agreed.

Sounds best to quit this debate with you anyway. Someone who judges someone else's salvation through a political debate isn't worth my time. I do thank you for much of the information you provided, though, especially as to some of the Korean history.

 

Not some. Filipinos had as many American deaths during the long march to the concentration camps. Deaths came from both those who were in the march, and from the civilians who watched the march from the sides of the road, who despite the danger of sure death if caught, still managed to give US and Filipino troops water, and some food.

We did not choose sides.

We fought with the US willingly and voluntarily, because to us the Americans were our allies, apart from being colonizers. We were a US colony from 1896-1946.

We fought side by side with the US then, and I believe we will fight side by side with the US now, should push come to shove.

However, I believe that US troops stationed or in R&R in foreign countries ought to be given 'seminars' on how to behave, just as cops are given lectures on how to treat prisoners.

In the 1960's when the US still had its Air Force and Navy bases there, a fellow by the name of Sgt. Mooney brutally raped a Filipino woman. US authorities transferred him out of the country, and the woman never got justice served for her.

That became a very thorny issue which is still being brought up even today by anti US elements in my country.

 

Ever heard of the phrase "go through the motions" ? Like, you're not really interested in finding the culprit, but "go through the motions" anyway. Happens in most countries where US troops are looked on as demi-gods, like in my country of the 60's.

 

PB,

You raise a good point. I'm not naive enough to think that such crimes don't get winked at sometimes, as sickening as that thought is to me. I hope that I am correct in thinking, though, that the vast majority of them are strongly punished under the UCMJ. If Eliyahu is correct about the different arrangements in Korea as opposed to Europe, that is shameful, but perhaps has to do with the perception by the U.S. government of a lack of due process in Korean courts, or the humaneness of its corrections system. I don't know, but it's a possibility.

 

This post of yours bothered me ever since I read it because I found it astonishing. Today I looked up about the NK leadership and this is so hearbreaking - to have been brought up in a Christian home and then turn into an atheist who commits genocide. I started a thread here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31539

:tear:

 

Wow, I just saw this thread. There is no way I can comment on all of this, but I'd like to hit some high points.

First of all, most of what I saw about Japan's past was true. They were extremely vicious during WW2. Concerning the Korean soldiers in the Japanese military, I've not researched that, but I suspect the percentage of Japanese soldiers who went to the Philippines was much greater than has been represented. To this day there are often accounts in the Japanese papers of Japanese soldiers in Korea. As for the Koreans, most of them were made soldiers or prostitutes ("comfort women") by compulsion. They were virtual slaves. In particular the way the Japanese treated the Korean women and children (yes, children) prostitutes is appalling to this day.

Secondly, concerning the Japanese Self Defense forces, the idea of a preemptive strike against N. Korea is laughable. If it was said by a Japanese official it was merely talking about economic sanctions. I have a Self Defense soldier in my church and we talked about this very thing Sunday. About the worst Japan could do is fire a few shells from a destroyer towards the coast of N. Korea.

On the other hand, if the N. Koreans attack Japan they are in for a rude suprise. There will not be clouds of radioactive dust arising frrom Japan's nuclear facilities, there will be clouds of smoke arising from all the N. Korean planes shot down!

Think of every case in recent years when Soviet era planes (what N. Korea has) have gone against modern U. S.-made fighters like the F16s, etc., that Japan has. (Not to mention the huge U. S. presence here.) Absolutely no contest in Iraq, right? Plus, N. Korea is starving to death. They do not have the resources for anything like a sustained attack on Japan or S. Korea. All mouth and no ability!:tongue3:

 

Thanks to John.
We do have some good fellowship with Plymouth Brethren in Japan, and remember Uchimura Kanjo, Miura Ayako, even Kawabada Yashnari influenced by Christianity.
Whenever, the brethren from Japan visit Korea, they start to say " we apologize... "
I believe that Christianity preaches the true repentance and if anyone denies the truth of the history, they miss the truth and the chance of true salvation. If the public recognition of Japanese is based on the denial of the true history, they will have the little chance of salvation as a consequence. They are related.

As for NK, they are misled by wrong leaders. SK people do not want to repeat the same disaster as they had in Korean War. Last time they lost 4 million people, and this time they may lose 8 million if a war occur, as the population has grown and the weapons have become massively destructive. Any attack will cause an enormous destruction and Seoul is the nearest and easiest target for NK attack. So SK want to avoid the crash by any means. I don't think Japan will make Pre-emptive attack to NK, nor will the Nuke power plants be attacked by NK in reality. I don't expect any effect from economic sanction against NK. In the past NK just caused another problem, another problem.
The policy of US on NK fluctuated many times, forward and backward, depending on the administration. But the actions taken by Bush administration were not very much thoughtful and were not based on the good understanding about the background.

Key question is who broke the Treaty of Geneva first.
Since 1994, USA delayed the implementation of the treaty for 2 years or so, then started the supply of Diesel oil awhile, then stopped, then re-started the supply of it, then G Bush called them "Axis of Evil" and threatened NK many times that they would stop the supply of Diesel, or take military actions while SK and Japan were paying the amounts due to them and building the Light Water Atomic power plant, NK has sealed the Fuel Rods and has allowed the inspection by IAEA.
Since 1994, US has never been faithful with the Treaty, delaying the implementation 2 years, threatning the cancellation of the supplying Diesel, Attacking NK by pre-emptive action, and spying over the sky of NK, etc., partly because Clinton govt was minority government.
When James Kelly visited NK Sept-Oct 2002, he reported that the NK engineers confessed their Plan B that they have another plan to develop Nukes while they get IAEA inspection. Then BUsh declared in November 2002 that the diesel oil will not be supplied any more until things are cleared. Then NK took it as the cancellation of the Treaty and declared the expulsion of the IAEA inspectors at the end of December 2002.
Here the main issue is whether James Kelly's report was true or not.
NK denied that anyone confessed the development of Nuke in other place, denied any plan B. Could James Kelly provide any evidence or record of dialogue or any proof ? As far as I know, no. We can easily imagine no one would have confessed such important thing. But what we can presume is that NK engineers would have said, " if US continues to threaten us and stop supply of diesel, calling us Axis of Evil, we will take another alternative action which include Reactivation of Nuke activity" Then Kelly asked " Do you have another plan? " "Yes" This is a kind of scenario which might have happened.
As you understand, Treaty and Business Contract need a lot of effort from mutual parties as they need to be built up based on the mutual trust.
However, US showed no trust on NK from the beginning, repeatedly threatened NK and delayed the ratification. I wonder why US entered the treaty with NK, if they were turning to distrust so quickly. If US took the hardline policy in 1993-4, then the situation would have been far better. Even today, after NK developed Nukes more, US try to take the harder line policy. Such hardline could be taken in 1993-4 but US took the soft policy which was inducing NK to come out to the international society, at that time. Then now after NK developed the Nuke, US try to take the hardline, which doesn't make sense.
I have never heard that James Kelly presented the proof or record that NK admited Plan B in Oct 2002. It may be hardly found as was the WMD in Iraq.
Many people of America remember only that NK expelled IAEA inspectors, without knowing that US stopped the supply of Diesel first before that action.

If we know the history and the sequences quite well, we can find the best solution. I personally have some brilliant, christian like ideas for resolving the problems with NUke, and even with Re-unification, but wait until the commandment of God in this regard reaches me as Joseph waited for the time when his brethren and father came, even though he could god there in 2days, riding on the chariots.

 

We live in Asahikawa, Hokkaido, the home ton of Miura Ayako. We never got to meet her, unfortunately, and she died a couple of years ago. I have a couple of her books that have been a blessing.

I have heard about this, and they need to do so. I have talked to Japanese who had no idea how bad their country had been until they visited other countries in Asia.

I agree completely. And they do deny their history in their school textbooks, as I am sure you have heard. There is nothing about what they did in the Phillippines or Korea, or the "Rape of Nanking" in China, where 200,000 civilians (including children) were tortured, raped and killed.

One of the saddest times I've had in Japan was witnessing to a man who fought Russia in N. China. He said, "I know my country sinned in WW2, but I do not repent."

My heart goes out to the poor people of NK. My friend in the Japan SD Forces said Sunday that to them, each of those 7 missiles represented 10,000 Koreans, the number of people that probably starved to death because of food they could not have because of the cost of the weapons.

I think one of two things will happen in the next few years. (1) Kim may attack S. Korea to distract his people from their misery, in which case much damage will be done (as you say), but NK will lose quickly. Why? They do not have the resources and an army marches on its stomach. Also, much time has passed since the first war and their weapons are much inferior to SK's weapons. The only problem will be if China enters the fight.

(2) The governement of NK will collapse, like so many other communist countries.

I'll have to defer to your knowledge about these things. I pretty much only get the Japanese viewpoint. They are very nervous about Korea, and will not soon forgive NK for the kidnappings of their citizens in past years. This is a huge issue in Japan.

Concerning NK nukes, I don't think they can develop them without Chinese help, which is possible. NK does not have the technology or expertise to develop such weapons on their own.

Amen! God has His plan, and I am waiting to see what that is! raise:

 

Eliyahu, President Truman initiated the division of Korea in order to prevent the Soviets from occupying the entire peninsula. And if he hadn't, there would have been no chance of South Korea becoming the economic powerhouse that it is today. Look at the Soviet-dominated nations of eastern Europe, and how they are now trying to play catchup with the West. The same would be the case with Korea if it had not been divided. You say, Eliyahu, that the US made the wrong decision? Maybe. It seemed the best option at the time.

True, the Japanese committed atrocities in Korea and many other places during WWII. The dwindling number of veterans of the Pacific fighting knew all about that, and many never forgave them for it. But that was 60 years ago, and the Japanese have behaved as responsible and reliable allies since that time, and it is the North Korean government that is provoking the current crisis. It is seen in that light not only in the US, but also throughout 'the world community'.

Regarding the Status of Forces agreement between the US and ROK, as of 2000 the agreement was revised, after 5 years of negotiations. Under the new agreement, any US seviceman involved in 12 serious crimes including murder, rape, arson etc are handed over to South Korean authorities "at the time of indictment". South Korean police are able to detain US soldiers accused of violent crimes after arresting them.

Probably the vast majority of Americans would like nothing better than for our troops to leave S. Korea, as you want. I am quite sure that if your goverment asked us to take them out, they could begin leaving tomorrow.

 

Niteshift,

Thanks very much. You put this more knowledgeably and more concisely than I ever could. But I would add that 12 seems like a high threshold. But perhaps, as I said, there are concerns about S.K. justice or prisons, I don't know. Maybe not.

 

Wrong!
It was not Truman that divided Korea, but FD Roosevelt.
If you had read my post you could find that the division of Korea was already decided at Yalta in Feb 1945 and the president then was FDR.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/yalta.htm

The main problem is that US thought dividing a nation as cutting a cake, which caused a tremendous problem. In February Soviet Russia was not marching, but from the beginning US thought the division of a nation and a country easy as cutting a cake or a pizza. God knows this problem.
The argument is that why US didn't try to take the whole Korea since Russia never demanded Korea before. Russia was more interested in Darien seaport.

the best option was to claim the whole Korea, since Russia never demanded it.

In God's view, yesterday is the same as today, especially when Japanese do not repent about it, nor admit the sins of the past.
There has been no peace treaty between Japan and NK yet.

Majority of Koreans think the US army is needed there not for Korea, but for the benefit and interest of USA.
Do you know that US has the control over the Korean army since 1950 upto now?
There has been no significant improvement since the revision of SOFA 2000. Yet, who shall take the judicial authority is decided by US officers and that's why no US personnel has been jailed to-date despite all the crimes.
If US army leave there tomorrow, SK will be Neuter zone, nuke free. If there break out war between US and NK, that't their problem. If there is a war between Japan and NK, that's their problem too.
But whether US maintain the forces in SK or not was discussed at the Senate and House deeply, and the conclusion was that the geographical importance and the interest of US are enormous there. Koreans will not beg US to stay there so much.

Your view may reflect the ones of Neo-cons but I believe the wisest idea is to know how God sees the whole situation.

 

These days much of Nuke Tech has been exposed, and NK may have received some part from Russia, Pakistan, China.

When The Geneva Treaty was discussed, the whole package was discussed as well. I guess the Peace Treaty between Japan and NK was discussed too, and 6 Billion USD came out of either Japan or NK. If things went well this could help NK to come out to the international society and to avoid the starvation.
Later YS Kim the president of SK who is famous for his jealousy against his rival politicians said ( even at Waseda University) " Why does Japan have to pay such amount ?"

But if you check about the statistics of the past 1900-1945, Korea produced more than 30 tons of Gold per year and more than 90% of it came from Woon-San Gold Mine which was one of the world largest gold mines at that time. That means that 900-1100 tons of gold was exploited from NK area, of which current value is 25 Billion USD at least. Woon San is very near from Young Byon where the Nuke facilities are located.
If such amount is returned to NK, they could have resolved so many problems and come out to the international society.
As you may know, Japan introduced a modernized Land Registry system as soon as Japan occupied Korea. Then majority of Koreans didn't know that they had to register their own land inheritted from their ancestors. Most of the land which were not registered were forfeited by Japanese Government, then redistributed to the original owners as tenants. Also, there were much land belonging to the king of Korea and it became the properties of Japanese. This caused much economic tragedies for Koreans as well.
Let alone all the atrocities and cruelties by Japanese, only the price of the gold taken by Japanese can be used very effectively for the reconcilation between Japan and NK. Ribyan Kadafi paid 27 Billion for Pan-Am airline bombing, only for single aircraft case. Don't you think NK deserve such compensation? Moreover such amount is just about one month Trade Surplus of Japan today. If the whole package is discussed, NK will weep and weep. Will the peace be too expensive?
As you may know, Kim Il-Sung was the commander of the Korean guerrila fighting Japanese troops. Since WWII, as long as there is no peace treaty, to Kim and to his fellows, the struggle and the war are still continuing.

Of course, some arguments may sound very silly, but what God want us to do today is to avoid any childish war as we had in Korean war which was caused by Kim Ilsung and NK.
In some sense, Rather than saying Kim and NK are wicked, we can say that Kim and his regime are stupid, because they don't know how to negotiate, but they are accustommed to threatening instead.
If we can embrace North Korea, the whole situation will become different and the free world will march forward in fact. USA and Japan will have the direct access or contact thru the border line with China and Russia, which may not be a good news to China and Russia.

 

I agree. It is most definitely NK that is rattling its sabers and provoking the crisis. Almost no one here in Japan blames anyone else but Kim for this--the Japanese government, the Japanese media, our Japanese friends. Of course there is the Japanese Communist Party which, wildly ineffective though it is, insists on blaming the US just as the Communists around the world (along with the Islamics) like to do for everything.:tongue3:

I for one, as an expatriate living right across the Sea of Japan from NK, am glad the US forces are here and in SK. NK may attack, true, but it may be that SK would be able to defend due to the technology gap. We stopped over for a stay in Korea a few years back while going home for a furlough, and took a tour.

The specter of a NK attack is always in the minds of the people of Seoul, no matter what the radical student movement says. We were told by the tour guide that the freeway we were travelling on was built specifically to take landings by warplanes in case of war. Then at the presidential palace security was high, and we were not even allowed to take photos of the palace. Beyond that, we were treated with suspicion at the airport later because of a mistake by the customs man who stamped our passport. Imagine--white spies from NK! :laugh:

In the mean time, China is also dangerous. I believe the only thing keeping it from waltzing into Taiwan is the US presence here in the Far East.

 

That is the only way NK could produce nukes. The basic technology is out there for anyone to see, including college freshmen physics students. But actually producing a weapon is a long and very difficult process, which is why so few countries have been able to do so yet.

It will never happen. That is too far in the past and Japan is too proud. The Koreas might as well forget about it and get on with their future.

I have absolutely no qualms about saying that Kim and his regime are very wicked. They have done so many terrible things to their own people. We read and hear stories here in Japan all the time. God in His time will bring Kim down and free his people.raying:

 

Thanks FTR. I was just adding my 2 cents worth. You are correct about the military's concerns, in that they would prefer to punish their own people in their own way, rather than leaving them to rot in some far off land. Ft Leavenworth is full of GI's who commited crimes overseas. In the past, that was the routine.
As far as the '12' threshold, I guess I didn't express myself very clearly. In other words, there are 12 violent crimes over which the ROK police have jurisdiction, according to the SOFA agreement with S. Korea.

John, thanks for the info, and for the point of view from Japan. And also about your trip to Korea. I do know that opinion there is very divided concerning the US and N. Korea's intentions.

 

Yes I have read this. But whatever agreements FDR may have made with the Soviets, FDR had died before the war's end. Truman and his advisors favored a strong line against the Russians, and he made the decision to divide Korea -

"We now know that President Harry S. Truman proposed partitioning Korea on the eve of Japan's surrender to prevent the Soviets from occupying the entire peninsula. When he became President following Roosevelt's death in April 1945, Soviet expansion into Eastern Europe had begun to alarm U.S. leaders. Almost from the outset, the new President expected Soviet actions in Korea to parallel Stalin's policies in Poland. Within a week after assuming office, Truman began to search for some way to eliminate any opportunity for a repetition of Soviet expansion."

- Historian James Matray



http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/korpart.htm

 

Regardless of the history and bitternes that hasnt been let go obviously, regimes that attempt to extort financial assistance from the world community because their own government has failed to provide the leadership to have a self sustaining people, do not deserve assistance from anyone.

You cannot work on nuclear weapons if your people are suffering. Living beyond your means and then claiming the world owes you suport is false. Stop working on nukes and feed the people. The US is certainly not going to give aid to a dictator who acts like a spoiled child. So he can continue to gain weapons he as shown he lacks the responsibility to have.

 

Since Dec 28, 2000, the situation was greatly improved on the criminals. In the negotiation, the time of handing over the criminal to ROK police was one of the main issues, whether it should be only after the final judgment by the court or at the time of indictment. In that aspect the amendment reflected ROK opinions quite a lot, but in detail, SOFA increased the protection of US personnel clauses quite a lot, so that the criminals may escape thru such clauses. In reality many of GI's were relocated to other countries after the crimes so that no further indictment may be possible.
Korean jurisdiction is limited only to 12 listed criminals, the common violences are not included. In the initial stage of the investigation, in reality even the 12 major criminals are handed over to US first, then they decide whether the case applies to 12 capital criminals or not. So the chance of punishing GI's crimes are very slim in reality.
To the mind of most Koreans, US army ruined the Korean justice system enormously before 2000 and they noticed the brutal murders were condoned unpunished, and still US personnel ignore the local people and the local laws.
Apart from them, the environmental criminals are not punished at all. Dumping out the chemicals from Laundry or other facilities are not the crimes there.
Koreans try to preserve their land with their best effort, but USFK ignore such rule. This environmental crimes are annoying Koreans very much.

Throughout the world, if you observe US policy and USF carefully, they value their people's life, law, and right very much, but they don't care about the human rights of local civilians and the local laws.

As long as US condone or advocate the criminals of USF, they will lose the reputation from the people where they are stationed.
The case of Green in Iraq was not unusual. Even in the strict Islam countries they did such crimes. Is Green ( coporal?) punished ? That tells the reality.
How would have been the crimes of USF during Korean War? How would have been the crimes of USFK during 1950-2000?
Unless US improves and pay more attention to educate the soldiers not to ignore the local laws and local civilians and exert more effort to prevent the military criminals, the innocent ( or unrelated) personnels may continue to be beheaded. Doesn't God know about it? Why does God allow such cruelty to happen to US army? Did you hear about the mascre of the civilians by US army in Nogeunri during Korean war which killed hundreds of refugees ?

Apparently there was no difference between the attitudes of US when US made the agreement of Taft-Katsura to allow Japan to colonize Korea and when US suggested Russia the division of Korea in Feb 1945 which was far before Russia broke the Non-Invasion Treaty with Japan.
Many Korean people still question why Korea had to be divided by US ? To them, such division looks much worse than the entire ooccupation by Russia. Did Hungary, Romania suffer from the death of 4 millions? Did all Vietnamese starve after the re-unification since US left the south?

 

John of Japan and Revmitchel,

That was the main thought of the people before the Geneva Treaty. We should not yield to any threatening or to the blackmailing. However, when they discuss the treaty, all the arguments were reflected.
At that time, at the elementary school my daughter was asked to submit an essay about the NPT crisis of NK. She mention the question there,
should we pray God to punish NK and let NK starve and perish ? or help them to come out to the international society for better life and for better communication in the world and be changed?

What are the teachings of Jesus Christ? Were the sins of Kims not forgiven at the Cross? Are they unforgivable ? How can we separate between NK and Kim Jung-Il? Should it be only one step? what about 2 steps, by helping them and dismantling the nukes and missiles first, then changing the regime later after people's powere of NK is grown?
One of the big differences between NK and Middle East is that NK was a Christian dominated society and there are still many underground Christians in NK, and moreover, once a certain package deal is reached, they can be changed enormously.

Could you see some more marture approach on this matter?
To the eyes of Neo-Cons, such idea may look unrealistic. To them, Rambo style attack or Cowboy Diplomacy may be the best solution.
Then I have to give up telling any more. God knows the best solution and even our thoughts may be judged by Him because any action or negligence comes from the thoughts. If the other countries insist on their own way, it is up to them.