JC pennys Now 'officially" A gay friendly Company!

[padredurand]

Ben, you should lovingly rebuke and correct your children. You did not, however, give birth to JC Penny. Your kids receive your discipline because you love them and they know where your heart is. That's as it should be.

Does JC Penny know you're boycotting them? More importantly, do they know why you stopped shopping there? Did you write them and tell them about Jesus? Did you tell them what a miserable trash heap of humanity we all were until Grace walked in? Did you tell them how the Word has shaped your heart to where you grieve for the lost soul? Did you tell them how God's plan for healthy relationships, purity and fidelity is important to your values?

If not then you are, from their perspective, just another statistic.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I tend to agree with the notion of boycotting flagrant disregard for moral values such as what J.C. Penny's is apparently engaged in. If Penny's is merely donating money on the side to every angry group which comes to shake them down...then I have no problem with it. Most major Corporations do...they will even donate to BOTH sides of a Political campaign just to keep their bases covered. They will even give Jesse High-jackson cash during his regular shakedowns in order to keep him off their back. But to openly promote on television is something altogether different...There is wickedness done under the cover of darkness...and then there is the gall to shove it in people's face.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

I have a close friend who somewhat jokingly likes to say: "If you are going to be a drunken slut....at least have the decency to lie about it."

If this is simply a bottom-line marketing issue for Penny's than it should definitely prove to have been a mistake.

 

[DiamondLady]

Second, personally, “anytime” I have a “reasonable” choice between option A and option B when one option is less supportive to such agendas that are against my Christian values I will choose that option. Anytime! In affect you are now also suggesting that I compare the simple and basically non-sacrificial task of shopping elsewhere to work against J C Penny’s agenda to the very sacrificial task of giving up the computer and using that argument to justify not taking any action at all when it comes to the practice of boycotting when reasonable to do so.

I'm sorry, it's not much of a boycott if you only do it if it doesn't inconvenience you. This is exactly why the gay agenda continues to grow in support. Corporate sponsors, like Microsoft and Apple, have no fear to openly support because they know good Christian people like you won't inconvenience themselves and give up their computers.

 

[DiamondLady]

I tend to agree with the notion of boycotting flagrant disregard for moral values such as what J.C. Penny's is apparently engaged in. If Penny's is merely donating money on the side to every angry group which comes to shake them down...then I have no problem with it. Most major Corporations do...they will even donate to BOTH sides of a Political campaign just to keep their bases covered. They will even give Jesse High-jackson cash during his regular shakedowns in order to keep him off their back. But to openly promote on television is something altogether different...There is wickedness done under the cover of darkness...and then there is the gall to shove it in people's face..

The problem with this argument is that these corporations donating large sums of money aren't doing it because they're being "shaken down" by an angry group. They've adopted policies and positions in which they actively support, encourage, promote, and push the homosexual agenda; including same sex marriage, gay adoption rights, diversity education in public schools and the workplace.

It's a lot more complex than the idea that JCP has put a commercial on television vs Microsoft who works steadily and stealtily behind the scenes.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The problem with this argument is that these corporations donating large sums of money aren't doing it because they're being "shaken down" by an angry group. They've adopted policies and positions in which they actively support, encourage, promote, and push the homosexual agenda; including same sex marriage, gay adoption rights, diversity education in public schools and the workplace.

It's a lot more complex than the idea that JCP has put a commercial on television vs Microsoft who works steadily and stealtily behind the scenes.

No, my argument is otherwise....I can agree with you that Penny's may be doing no MORE harm than those who do so "behind the scenes"....in fact, it is the CRUX of my argument. What I am taking exception to, is not that they are supporting it on the sly like others...it's that they have the gall to do so without shamefacedness. There is something of a difference between the tacit knowledge that there have always been homosexuals engaging in their sin "in the closet"....it is another level when they have "gay-pride parades". It is something altogther new when they no longer blush. The scope of it is intended to push society a step farther...It is a different line being crossed. My verse in Jeremiah was designed to demonstrate that I don't take exception to the mere status of being a "whore" as Jeremiah said...it is that the "whore" no longer blushes, does not "sweat in Church". The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. One is at a new level of depravity when they go from being cautiously and fearfully wicked in secret...and when they show flagrant and blatant disregard for morality. Penny's is similar...they are openly shaking their fist. That is the exception I am taking.

 

[DiamondLady]

No, my argument is otherwise....I can agree with you that Penny's may be doing no MORE harm than those who do so "behind the scenes"....in fact, it is the CRUX of my argument. What I am taking exception to, is not that they are supporting it on the sly like others...it's that they have the gall to do so without shamefacedness. There is something of a difference between the tacit knowledge that there have always been homosexuals engaging in their sin "in the closet"....it is another level when they have "gay-pride parades". It is something altogther new when they no longer blush. The scope of it is intended to push society a step farther...It is a different line being crossed. My verse in Jeremiah was designed to demonstrate that I don't take exception to the mere status of being a "whore" as Jeremiah said...it is that the "whore" no longer blushes, does not "sweat in Church". The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. One is at a new level of depravity when they go from being cautiously and fearfully wicked in secret...and when they show flagrant and blatant disregard for morality. Penny's is similar...they are openly shaking their fist. That is the exception I am taking.

I understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to stress is that Christians are outraged at JCP putting a commercial on tv showing two homosexual men playing with their son, yet aren't the slightest bit upset that the $4 they spent for the Cheeseburger Happy Meal they just bought for their four-year-old went to lobby for same sex marriage. I'm saying we're picking and choosing teeny skirmishes but we're losing the war....we're not seeing the forest for the trees! These little boycotts are like the arrows the Liliputians shot at Gulliver...nothing but an annoyance.

 

[webdog]

I understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to stress is that Christians are outraged at JCP putting a commercial on tv showing two homosexual men playing with their son, yet aren't the slightest bit upset that the $4 they spent for the Cheeseburger Happy Meal they just bought for their four-year-old went to lobby for same sex marriage. I'm saying we're picking and choosing teeny skirmishes but we're losing the war....we're not seeing the forest for the trees! These little boycotts are like the arrows the Liliputians shot at Gulliver...nothing but an annoyance.

Not only that, they affect nobody but the employees who lose their jobs, hours and benefits. The handful of people making these decisions are not affected in any manner.

Also, unless you are also boycotting their vendors, suppliers, media outlets and the rest of those behind the scenes you are still going to be supporting them indirectly. This goes with every company.

I hold to the priesthood of the believer. If someone doesn't want to shop there for any reason, so be it...but don't tell us who decide not to follow your ways we don't have the same christian values or are morally inferior. Those are nothing but fighting words.

 

[Michaelt]

There is a difference between companies that make a token donation to a gay rights organization and companies that overtly promote homosexuality. JC Penney is going out of their way to promote homosexuality. They have color magazine ads showing lesbian couples hugging and gay men with their arms around each other frolicking with children. These ads come in the Sunday newspaper to millions of homes. Yes, you cannot AVOID this.

As much as I cringe getting into a discussion like this I have to ask the question.
How do you know the people in magazine or newspaper ads are homosexual? Are the ads explicitly stating that the people appearing in the ads are homosexual?
I ask because I haven't seen the ads that are being discussed.

On another note, as was mentioned that there are many, many companies that support the homosexual agenda, for those of you who have 401k's through your work, you probably will want to check on every company that is included in your investments; I would imagine a number of companies in 401k investments are companies who support the homosexual agenda.

 

[InTheLight]

As much as I cringe getting into a discussion like this I have to ask the question.
How do you know the people in magazine or newspaper ads are homosexual? Are the ads explicitly stating that the people appearing in the ads are homosexual?
I ask because I haven't seen the ads that are being discussed.

The people in the ads could be hetero actors, but the intent is clear--JC Penny's is marketing to gays. It's in their ad copy and their press releases.

 

[Yeshua1]

The people in the ads could be hetero actors, but the intent is clear--JC Penny's is marketing to gays. It's in their ad copy and their press releases.

and to me, that is where they 'crossed the line"...

Finre to accept that gays/straights both should feel free to shop there, but not good when they decide to make a statement gay a viable lifestyle to hetrosexual families!

 

[Benjamin]

I'm sorry, it's not much of a boycott if you only do it if it doesn't inconvenience you.

I'm sorry, but, the idea is a boycott is to “inconvenience” or better yet help cause a financial burden on "JCP"; to suggest it is not a boycott on them without great personal sacrifice on the one boycotting does not logically follow.

This is exactly why the gay agenda continues to grow in support.

Your first point doesn’t even follow and now this is exactly the way the gay agenda grows?! No, I’ll tell you why it grows at the rate that it does, because people of contrary values don’t take action against it, even when there is little to no “inconvenience” in doing so, that is my point that you have not begun to refute. You continue to miss that point. Rather they come up with excuses not boycott and defend their position of inaction based on All or Nothing/Perfectionist fallacy like this:

Corporate sponsors, like Microsoft and Apple, have no fear to openly support because they know good Christian people like you won't inconvenience themselves and give up their computers.

The gay agenda continues to grow at the rate it does because companies like JCP know good Christian people like you won’t even bother to so much as raise a finger against the gay agendas of companies they would no reason to even be dependant on. In your and others case here you resort on relying on reasoning like a boycott must equal great personal sacrifice (not logically true) and otherwise basing your decision on the reasoning that it must be All or Nothing to have any benefit (not logically true).

 

[webdog]

The gay agenda continues to grow at the rate it does because companies like JCP know good Christian people like you won’t even bother to so much as raise a finger against the gay agendas of companies they would no reason to even be dependant on. In your and others case here you resort on relying on reasoning like a boycott must equal great personal sacrifice (not logically true) and otherwise basing your decision on the reasoning that it must be All or Nothing to have any benefit (not logically true).

Pure excrement. What have you done to JCPenney besides continuing to not shop there? I've contacted human resources (I have contacts as an ex employee), have given links on here and facebook to do the same and encouraged current employees to voice their displeasure from the inside. Your false accusation is completely unfounded. Boycotting a company you don't frequent anyway is laughable.

 

[Benjamin]

Not only that, they affect nobody but the employees who lose their jobs, hours and benefits. The handful of people making these decisions are not affected in any manner.

The effect is on the company in whole. And the leaders of that company are the ones who stepped up to do battle. It is unfortunate that the consequences of them stepping up to do battle not only could fall upon others in their organization but also affects the general population in that it promotes the gay agenda. The company in whole is responable for their employees and if they began to lose the battle because of the risk they took then they have option to change their direction.

“If [pacifists] imagine that one can somehow "overcome" the German army by lying on one's back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen.”
― George Orwell

Also, unless you are also boycotting their vendors, suppliers, media outlets and the rest of those behind the scenes you are still going to be supporting them indirectly. This goes with every company.

All or Nothing/PErfectionist fallacyagain?

I hold to the priesthood of the believer. If someone doesn't want to shop there for any reason, so be it...but don't tell us who decide not to follow your ways we don't have the same christian values or are morally inferior. Those are nothing but fighting words.

Ad Hominem strawman fallacy now! It is not my position that your or any other here is morally inferior for not boycotting J C Penny. It is my position that your refusal to boycott J C Penny is irrational and based on fallacious reasoning. Continuing to build your argument on that claim will be considered a desperate and unethical debate tactic, although I know how much it means to you win an argument by any means you can attempt to muster up.

 

[Benjamin]

Pure excrement. What have you done to JCPenney besides continuing to not shop there? I've contacted human resources (I have contacts as an ex employee), have given links on here and facebook to do the same and encouraged current employees to voice their displeasure from the inside. Your false accusation is completely unfounded. Boycotting a company you don't frequent anyway is laughable.

Your reasoning that my logic is not true is based on that your words would have mean something to that company even though you are not willing to take to back up your words. Like a barking dog that everyone knows won't bite. Your uneffective approach does not logically refute my point. Your reasoning merely offers an alternative approach with little value and with a little rhetoric thrown in.

 

[Benjamin]

Ah yes...the hypothetical "what if".

Red Herring much?

Asking a question directly related to the consequences of your premise is not a "red herring". You missue the term.

Answer the question.

Well, merely stating something is a fallacy doesn't make it one. That is the fallacy known as begging the question.

Presenting the facts to back up my claim that your reasoning is based on a fallacy is not begging the question. You are really showing that you should study these philosphical terms better.

Did you cite your source if you took it right from a text, btw?

Look for yourself. Try to read a little more carefully this time, Perry Mason.

While your at it I suggest you take another at definition of the fallacy, because your ignorance shows with your and others insistence to continue relying on that fallacy.

...and yet another attempt to answer a simple question is ignored. Gee...wonder why that is <end sarcasm>

I was merely giving you a little taste of your own medicine. Try not to be such a hypocrite. BTW, your answer has been given now above.

Keep on making the non sacrifice of boycotting a company that you don't rely on...while ignoring the one who plays the greater role in, how did you put it... "agendas of the wickedness in the world" who you do rely on for your day to day needs.

Purely rhetorical reply which not only avoids addressing your problem of you using the Perfectionist/All or Nothing fallacy while giving another example of trying to rest on it again, but attempts to act as if it is wrong to use the term "agenda of the wickedness" which is what it is and evidently you have failed to to see the relationship to my using that expression to the previous scripture I have quoted.

 

[Benjamin]

No, my argument is otherwise....I can agree with you that Penny's may be doing no MORE harm than those who do so "behind the scenes"....in fact, it is the CRUX of my argument. What I am taking exception to, is not that they are supporting it on the sly like others...it's that they have the gall to do so without shamefacedness. There is something of a difference between the tacit knowledge that there have always been homosexuals engaging in their sin "in the closet"....it is another level when they have "gay-pride parades". It is something altogther new when they no longer blush. The scope of it is intended to push society a step farther...It is a different line being crossed.

Good points regarding the crux of the argument. The debate is about boycotting "J C Penny" for their bold steps in pushing a new line to advance an immoral agenda and that J C Penny does not even have a significant degree of people having to rely on being dependant on them for their needs, so why not boycott? Why such a insistence?

The only reason of any value given in opposition to which I would sympathize with is the innocent emplyees that could be affected, but that is the company's choice because they are the ones that took the risk, started a battle, and would have the option to change their direction "if" it became evident that taking such steps was not to their or their emplyees benefit. The responsibilty for the outcome of them taking the forefront in this a battle is theirs if their advertising sceme were to backfire on them. One would have to ask me to accept the consequences of their actions while lying down and to ignore the affects their actions have on our society in whole for the benfit of their employees. That reasoning is solely dependant on the theories of pacifism which personally I don't buy into.

 

[DiamondLady]

Benjamin you said, "The gay agenda continues to grow at the rate it does because companies like JCP know good Christian people like you won’t even bother to so much as raise a finger against the gay agendas of companies they would no reason to even be dependant on. In your and others case here you resort on relying on reasoning like a boycott must equal great personal sacrifice (not logically true) and otherwise basing your decision on the reasoning that it must be All or Nothing to have any benefit (not logically true). "

Would it suprise you to know that I AM refusing to shop at JCP, just as I did Home Depot, McDonald's, and Ford Motor Company before them? You argument doesn't hold water does it now??? A boycott that costs you nothing is worth nothing. When the first Americans boycotted tea because of the tax it cost them....some everything. When you stand up for something you firmly believe it is SHOULD inconvenience you, it should not be something simple or even easy.

The sad fact is, the people this boycott costs most more than likely are normal everyday people like you and I who work hard behind a cash register, in a warehouse or stock room...not the decision making CEO's who continue to draw their very large salaries.

Question.....how many letters have you written to JCP or other companies? How many store managers have you taken the time to go in and see personally, speaking to them about why you're boycotting their company? Have you called the main headquarters of JCP and let them know you're boycotting? If you can't answer yes to all, or even 1 of these questions then your boycott is completely meaningles.. I've done all those things.

 

[padredurand]

That reasoning is solely dependant on the theories of pacifism which personally I don't buy into.

You want activism? Try the Great Commission. It starts with the word GO! It is full of active verbs.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:18-20 NAS77

That is the action we take against sinners. You have stated numerous times that your objective is to punish JC Penny until they conform to your values. Punishment for sinful behavior is God's domain not ours. You want the company to change? You can change their mind for a season. Only God can change them for eternity. You either believe that God is unable to convince and convict those directors of their sinfulness or you believe He is taking too long.

"We have no greater task than to make disciples of Jesus Christ." John Wesley

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You want activism? Try the Great Commission. It starts with the word GO! It is full of active verbs.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:18-20 NAS77

That is the action we take against sinners. You have stated numerous times that your objective is to punish JC Penny until they conform to your values. Punishment for sinful behavior is God's domain not ours. You want the company to change? You can change their mind for a season. Only God can change them for eternity. You either believe that God is unable to convince and convict those directors of their sinfulness or you believe He is taking too long.

"We have no greater task than to make disciples of Jesus Christ." John Wesley

Well now .....The truth will set ya free. Thanks D :wavey:

 

[Benjamin]

We are going in circles here:

DiamondLady, you’ve gone from “boycotts do no good” to “my boycott is better than your boycott".

The objective of a boycott is not to put a burden on yourself it is to put a burden on the company. Your reasoning that it must be at great personal sacrifice is just silly.

Its getting tiring chasing these regenerative rabbits. I've already hunted them, caught them and the heavy chain of rabbit feet around my neck is just adding more of the same.



Padre, the fact that eternal punishment is God’s does not justify inaction in the world. The Bible is full of instructions to rebuke the unrighteous and wicked and that such action will bring blessing upon you.

I’ve already addressed that spreading the Gospel being the greatest task does not amount to that there aren’t also noble cases to be active in. (post #77)

As for your false dilemma: “You either believe that God is unable to convince and convict those directors of their sinfulness or you believe He is taking too long.”

I’ve already addressed that reasoning too:

“My daughter has persuaded several of her peers to change their view on abortion, should tell her to give up the battle and leave it in solely in God’s hands, isn’t He working fast enough for you?”

P.S. I also tried to warn you in post #77 that you were sounding like a determinist and now:

Well now .....The truth will set ya free. Thanks D :wavey:

You've got their cheerleaders breaking out the pom-poms for you! I'd be concerned about that if I were you. :smilewinkgrin:

I think we've run the course here...