JC pennys Now 'officially" A gay friendly Company!

[Benjamin]

Intelligent rebuttal.

Look, a person can believe gay marriage is wrong, an abomination, or whatever. However, you cannot legislate your personal morality, religion, or belief onto others. As the maxim goes, my right to swing my fists ends where your nose begins.

If the Bible were the law of the land, then you'd probably be right. However, we live under a secular government, based on the Constitution of the United States. You should not mix the two.

You want intelligent conversation address post # 113 which refers to some of the issues you've raised for an argument to support your agenda to help those who promote wickedness. I don't see any value at all in chasing rabbits you can raise in a format like this while you avoid addressing reasoned arguments.

I am well aware that it is your view to put the world above God and to base your the value of your morals on that, as arre many others here. Add that to your constant avoidance by going circular by making such ignorant statements that morals should never be imposed on others and you clearly have no room to talk about "intelligent rebuttals". I gave you back exactly what you were giving with that duh.

You aren't fooling anyone (or very few) with your arguments or where you're coming any more than anyone would believe your reasoning why you like your little dancing in-your-face signature. Your reason for being here on this board and where you're coming from is clear to me.

I've asked for a logical reason for Christians not to boycott JC Penny, that is what the thread is about and I certainly don't expect that answer from you.. I'm not interested in chasing your other agendas under this format.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Allow gays to enter into civil unions and have the same full legal rights as married people. Hospital visits, inheritance, and whatever other inequities could be fixed. But don't call it marriage.

I just don't understand it. If someone is gay and wants to proclaim it the term "civil union" pretty much describes the situation to every one involved. But no, they want to say they're married.

ITL, we are not very far apart in our personal view on this as you would have thought. :thumbsup:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Benjamin, you are sinking into the level of personal attacks. My only agenda is to have a reasoned debate on both sides of the issue. I have tried to point out that one's religious beliefs, while certainly valid, are not the basis of our law. That we should not vote on people's rights anymore than we should vote on yours or mine.

And if that little jumping stick man is really bothering you, you need to reassess what is getting you so riled up. You sure are reading a lot into a simple little graphic. I put it here since I found it to be happy, jumping for joy. Of all things to get your panties in a bunch over!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The ole “homophobic” card play now. I wondered how long it would take or if someone would have the gall to allude to and would resort to that argument. It is a shame that so many have bought into the dogmas of the worldly which are designed to conform others to their values and would speak according to such ignorance.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and
acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
(Rom 12:2)


“Why oppose human rights for anyone”?!? Really!? The abortionists think it is their human right to do what they please with their body so that they can live the way they want to live. That should tell you something about valuing human rights over moral principles in a society in which one lives.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
(Luk 6:45-49)

I must have hit a nerve...lol...probably self loathing

 

[hillclimber1]

We quit shopping at JC Penneys also, and even put our Penney's CC's in the drawer.. We won't spend any money with a company that foolishly tries to fix their bottom line by promoting deviancy to attract those liberal folks that see themselves as "tolerant" or "loving".. They couldn't be thinking that they are appealing only to homosexuals, who only make up 3-4% of the population. I can't figure out how they could have expected any other result when just the Christian community alone would greatly harm their bottom line.. Oh well, the big shakeup in headquarters may bring a semblance to sanity to JC Penney..

 

[plain_n_simple]

Ever wonder if Jesus talked to, ate with, hung out with, prayed for, or healed any gays?

Wonder what His demeanor and His attitude was toward the lesbians and homosexuals of His day?

Wonder what His demeanor and His attitude was toward the sinners of His day?

I'll bet it was love.

He did not turn away one because of their sins

The Pharasees always turn sinners away in judgement

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Ever wonder if Jesus talked to, ate with, hung out with, prayed for, or healed any gays?

Wonder what His demeanor and His attitude was toward the lesbians and homosexuals of His day?

Wonder what His demeanor and His attitude was toward the sinners of His day?

I'll bet it was love.

He did not turn away one because of their sins

The Pharasees always turn sinners away in judgement

He didn't turn anyone away, but he didn't tell anyone to continue in their sin, either. He said to go and sin no more.

 

[padredurand]

Ever wonder if Jesus talked to, ate with, hung out with, prayed for, or healed any gays?

Wonder what His demeanor and His attitude was toward the lesbians and homosexuals of His day?

Wonder what His demeanor and His attitude was toward the sinners of His day?

I'll bet it was love.

He did not turn away one because of their sins

The Pharasees always turn sinners away in judgement

Jesus dropped the ball. He had the perfect opportunity to organize a protest against the folks running the Temple. Sure, He dumped the money-changer's tables over a couple of time but no boycott. Certainly with thousands of followers He could've mounted a significant protest against Rome. Nope. Nada. He didn't even speak a word in His own defense at His trial. Did He not understand that if He didn't do something that sin would go unchecked and it would appear as if He was actually support their cause?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Jesus dropped the ball. He had the perfect opportunity to organize a protest against the folks running the Temple. Sure, He dumped the money-changer's tables over a couple of time but no boycott. Certainly with thousands of followers He could've mounted a significant protest against Rome. Nope. Nada. He didn't even speak a word in His own defense at His trial. Did He not understand that if He didn't do something that sin would go unchecked and it would appear as if He was actually support their cause?

Jesus never baptized anyone either....he left that to his disciples. You keep making arguments from silence...

Social activism isn't a part of the Great Commission
Jesus didn't engage in Politcal Activism

Padre...Jesus presumably quit his job as a Carpenter around 30ish too. Is this how it works? Do ONLY and PRECISLELY as Jesus did? Arguably, Jesus had a slightly different goal in mind when he was on Earth. He had a rather unique and specific task to accomplish, one neither you nor anyone here are particularly equipped to copy.

It is really a simple thing, don't boycott if you don't want to. Others however, are taking advantage of the fact that it is a free-market system, and they can "VOTE" with their wallets. Many people are rather tired of watching their society and culture implode under the weight of it's own wickedness. They aren't trying to BE JESUS, and they are not trying to accomplish the Great Commission either. They are simply, as members of a society and a culture they care about, trying to have a positive impact upon their surroundings. If you have no appreciation for it...fine, but pretending that it is somehow BIBLICALLY un-advisable, or Un-Christian somehow is rather dangerous thinking. By your type of logic William Wilburforce was off-track and should have made better use of his time and energy.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

However, you cannot legislate your personal morality, religion, or belief onto others.

Morality.....is, in fact, the only thing you CAN legislate. This is a favorite canard, usually used by the godless, but it is also poorly thought through. The exact converse is in fact true. Think about it.

based on the Constitution of the United States. You should not mix the two.

One has no choice but to mix the two. The Constitution ultimately stands upon certain assumptions. Those are assumptions based upon a moral and philosophical and indeed moral foundation which MUST have a basis. The Constitution, and the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence assume a certain ultimate moral authority and inalienable set of Biblical truths...They are not random, nor can any principles upon which a society is built be. You seem to think too much like a moral relativist. I think You should consider these things more deeply.

I do not mean to insult you, I mean this only in friendly concern and Christian love...:flower:
Reading your posts on this and several other threads raises some alarm bells to me. I am pretty sure I am not the only one who senses this. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of your faith or your salvation, but you seem to think more like the world than a child of Christ. Your mind does not seem to have been "transformed" on the most basic of levels. There is always a process which is never-ending of sanctification for all of us, but generally speaking...quite frankly, you don't "sound" like a Christian, you don't seem to have the "mind" of a Child of God. You may be a new Christian, and that is naturally a process. Moreover, you are likely in an environment not particularly conducive to learning Biblical thinking. That would have an effect on you not helpful for a transformation from thinking as the world does to thinking as a Christian should. I appreciate your participation on this board, and I thank you for your willingness to communicate. I hope you are here for a long time brother!! :wavey:

 

[padredurand]

Jesus never baptized anyone either....he left that to his disciples. You keep making arguments from silence...

Social activism isn't a part of the Great Commission
Jesus didn't engage in Politcal Activism

Padre...Jesus presumably quit his job as a Carpenter around 30ish too. Is this how it works? Do ONLY and PRECISLELY as Jesus did? Arguably, Jesus had a slightly different goal in mind when he was on Earth. He had a rather unique and specific task to accomplish, one neither you nor anyone here are particularly equipped to copy.

It is really a simple thing, don't boycott if you don't want to. Others however, are taking advantage of the fact that it is a free-market system, and they can "VOTE" with their wallets. Many people are rather tired of watching their society and culture implode under the weight of it's own wickedness. They aren't trying to BE JESUS, and they are not trying to accomplish the Great Commission either. They are simply, as members of a society and a culture they care about, trying to have a positive impact upon their surroundings. If you have no appreciation for it...fine, but pretending that it is somehow BIBLICALLY un-advisable, or Un-Christian somehow is rather dangerous thinking. By your type of logic William Wilburforce was off-track and should have made better use of his time and energy.

I'll try to be succinct. JC Penny exists only on a ledger sheet. It is assets and liabilities - no more no less. It does not have a soul. It is stock certificate and inventory. The corporation is soulless, too. Within that corporate structure is real people with real names:

Board of Directors , the Executive Board, and Committees. A boycott will change their mind until the next quarterly earning report is published. A changed heart is for eternity. Paul admonished, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12 KJV)

A wallet is not listed among the Armor. Our enemy can withstand a boycott but falls helpless before the Cross. The only effective way to change a corporate climate is to lead the decision makers to Jesus Christ.

 

[webdog]

He didn't turn anyone away, but he didn't tell anyone to continue in their sin, either. He said to go and sin no more.

He also said to give unto Caesar that which is Caesars. Some here would view that as supporting the evil Caesar orchestrated.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

A boycott will change their mind until the next quarterly earning report is published. A changed heart is for eternity. Paul admonished, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12 KJV)

A wallet is not listed among the Armor. Our enemy can withstand a boycott but falls helpless before the Cross. The only effective way to change a corporate climate is to lead the decision makers to Jesus Christ.

And you are absolutely correct....and I understood this before you were quite so "succinct" for my diminutive mind....What I am saying is that the notion of a "boycott" is designed to do no MORE than, as you say:

change their mind until the next quarterly earning report is published.

That is the point, and the ONLY point....You are also pretending that two things are inevitable:
1.) The corporation will inevitably revert back to their prior behaviour as soon as the next quarter begins
2.) No one will possibly boycott them again in reaction to it

Both of these are at minimum implausible. They are in the business of making money. If it consistently hurts their bottom line to do this, believe me, they will stop. I am not pretending that we are "wrestling against the 'enemy' and its principalities" et. al. I am saying it is an issue of concerned individuals...Concerned people simply trying to have a positive effect on the society in which they live. You seem to labour under the assumption that the ultimate task of raising one's children to be Godly and training them up..."in the way he should go" is as easy to do in a society completely devoid of morality than in one which emulates certain basic moral principles. This is a bad idea. I would rather raise my children and fight against these "principalities" on ground of MY choosing than ground of the enemy's choosing. Why do you think concerned Christians often choose to home-school their children? Will you answer that? Is it because one's parents are more effective at explaining chemistry than someone with a degree in it is? No....It's because they want to insulate impressionable minds from a culture utterly devoid of morality.

A changed heart is for eternity.

Yes, it is...and when you clearly explain that we, as Christians can guarantee that we will see "changed hearts" amongst all those who control the actions of J.C. Penny INC. then we will alter our strategy.

A wallet is not listed among the Armor.

True...but it is not Satan anyone is trying to contend against...it is the strategy of some godless people in making a marketing decision which can have a deliterious effect on society they are trying to alter......I am sorry, but the gospel has NO EFFECT on that. It can, by its very nature, ONLY effect the souls of the individuals involved...Unless you can guarantee the victory there.....I would rather we were "wise as serpents" on this one.

The only effective way to change a corporate climate is to lead the decision makers to Jesus Christ.

Pablum....the most immediate way is to hit them where it hurts: Their bottom-line...As a consumer, you can make a corporation crawl on it's face and beg for a cookie like a dog if you hit it where it hurts. In the same paragraph you said these two things:

It [J.C. Penny] does not have a soul.....The corporation is soulless

And:

The only effective way to change a corporate climate is to lead the decision makers to Jesus Christ.

Which of these are true?


If you're a Calvinist:
Do you know that the decision-makers are the pre-destined elect who will repent and believe the gospel?

If you're an Arminian:
Do you know that the decision-makers will freely choose to respond positively to the gospel you give them?

You are still acting as though the decision is one of: "either-or/neither-nor" It is not. One could concievably concern themself with both.

 

[12strings]

Are we still talking about this?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

What is "THIS" 12?

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin, you are sinking into the level of personal attacks. My only agenda is to have a reasoned debate on both sides of the issue. I have tried to point out that one's religious beliefs, while certainly valid, are not the basis of our law. That we should not vote on people's rights anymore than we should vote on yours or mine.

I’m aware that you believe when it comes to establishing the laws of the land them Christians need to leave their values and principles at the door. But pal, when you come to a Christian board proselytizing that the wisdom of the world should take precedency over Christian values then expect to be confronted because it is the "basis", the foundation from upon which we come to our decisions.

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
(Col 3:17)

You see, we not only believe the Bible is Truth but that that Truth can be known and the instructions in that Book are to be followed. The Bible instructs against the very thing you are proposing:

With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
(Eph 6:7-8)

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
(Pro 3:5-7)

Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich. Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.
(Pro 28:5-7)

Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
(Pro 16:3)

And if that little jumping stick man is really bothering you, you need to reassess what is getting you so riled up. You sure are reading a lot into a simple little graphic. I put it here since I found it to be happy, jumping for joy. Of all things to get your panties in a bunch over!

Don't lie, you know and I know the somewhat common perverted jesture your little "happy, jumping for joy" man is making and your reason for using it is obviously based on that perspective.

 

[Benjamin]

A wallet is not listed among the Armor. Our enemy can withstand a boycott but falls helpless before the Cross. The only effective way to change a corporate climate is to lead the decision makers to Jesus Christ.

Once again, that is ultimate goal, but that does not justify inaction against the evil agendas in the world as if it is all must be gained or nothing.

 

[12strings]

What is "THIS" 12?

By "THIS" I mean: Whether it is a sin to shop at JC Penney.

 

[Yeshua1]

By "THIS" I mean: Whether it is a sin to shop at JC Penney.

per the bible, IF you are firmly persuaded/conviced that it would be a sin to do such, than per God you need to shop somewhere else!

 

[webdog]

Once again, that is ultimate goal, but that does not justify inaction against the evil agendas in the world as if it is all must be gained or nothing.

Nor does it justify ignoring equally evil agendas because it will be an inconvenience to you.

Since you keep harping on the "all or nothing" fallacy, why boycott ALL of JCPenney? Maybe I'll take the approach of boycotting the departments that do not inconvenience me like housewares and lingerie, I mean...it's doesn't have to be all or nothing, right?