Jehovah's Witnesses were going door to door...

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Jehovah's Witnesses were going door to door in the neighborhood today & distributing the Watchtower and Awake magazines. Because we have a sign outside that states that "We believe in Angels" ( Because they believe that God first created Michael the Archangel through whom He created all "other things," including the universe, the earth, Adam and Eve, etc.) they managed to hook my wife into a conversation. But since my wife wanted to engage them, I took this as an opportunity to show my bride that these JW's are a cult & not a true Religion. I got them to deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and deny his physical resurrection. At that point, my wife got quiet & retreated from the conversation & in short, I dismissed them. I have to tell you that they did not favor leaving, they wanted a debate to prove me wrong but I persevered in my Christian beliefs.

The wifes comments were, she did not know that people could truly deny Jesus as part of the Trinity.....so the whole thing in short was a good object lesson for her & a win for our Lord Jesus. Praise God!

 

[preacher4truth]

Grape Nuts religion.

 

[BobRyan]

While I agree that they are wrong on the list of items you give - I prefer to deal with them in a kind Christian manner - the same as anyone I am trying to reach for Christ.

I am fond of the model of sola-scriptura testing - where the Bible is the rule and the test - not simply "ad populum". I think most people here will agree with that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

While I agree that they are wrong on the list of items you give - I prefer to deal with them in a kind Christian manner - the same as anyone I am trying to reach for Christ.

I am fond of the model of sola-scriptura testing - where the Bible is the rule and the test - not simply "ad populum". I think most people here will agree with that.

in Christ,

Bob

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[preacher4truth]

While I agree that they are wrong on the list of items you give - I prefer to deal with them in a kind Christian manner - the same as anyone I am trying to reach for Christ.

I am fond of the model of sola-scriptura testing - where the Bible is the rule and the test - not simply "ad populum". I think most people here will agree with that.

Bob

Actually the method EWF used is Scriptural:


KJV:

And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. Acts 9:29

Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Acts 17:17

ESV:

And he spoke and disputed against the Hellenists. But they were seeking to kill him. Act 9:29

So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. Acts 17:17

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First off you are not sola scriptura. I want to get that out in the open and out of the way.

As to what EWF did we see that this method was employed in Scripture that you seemingly disdain. I suppose that true Gospel preachers aren't always trying to come off as super Spiritual, gentle as a lamb, and always trying to tranform themselves to appear as ministers of light as is a noted practice concerning those in cultic sects.

And frankly in all honesty your views of the false prophetess you follow and the denial of the Deity of Christ in SDAism should be met with the same as it is also false teaching and is to be disputed against and rebuked sharply. And you are most certainly not sola scriptura as you do in fact follow a false teachers writings, namely Ellen G. White.

This is one method I personally use to help discern one of truth and one of error. Every true man of God I've ever known employed disputing, and gentleness, and Christ is the perfect model of that. I'm leery of those who feel they need to show their super soft spiritual side and flaunt it in the face of real truth.

 

[JonC]

My wife and I lived right next to a Kingdom Hall. We were consistently visited. We moved to D.C., right next to a Kingdom Hall. Then we moved to Germany, and after a week found out we lived right next to a Kingdom Hall with an elderly German lady who visited consistently (very nice lady, and my wife could never turn her away). Moved back to the states….Kingdom Hall right outside of our subdivision.

I have never had success discussing Christianity with these folk (they were not open to conversation – but to be fair, neither was I), but perhaps something said may have created a spark that God used in their lives.

 

[DHK]

My wife and I lived right next to a Kingdom Hall. We were consistently visited. We moved to D.C., right next to a Kingdom Hall. Then we moved to Germany, and after a week found out we lived right next to a Kingdom Hall with an elderly German lady who visited consistently (very nice lady, and my wife could never turn her away). Moved back to the states….Kingdom Hall right outside of our subdivision.

I have never had success discussing Christianity with these folk (they were not open to conversation – but to be fair, neither was I), but perhaps something said may have created a spark that God used in their lives.

That is almost too funny. Perhaps God is calling you to a specific mission field.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

They told me that Christ became God in 1914

 

[Walter]

They told me that Christ became God in 1914

When discussing Christ deity I have found the following passage very difficult for them to deal with. 27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" John. 20:28

Most of the time they insist that Thomas was mistaken. I point out that Jesus did not correct Thomas and say: 'Don't call me God!' Thomas was a doubter but after seeing the risen Lord, he recognized exactly `Who' Jesus really is: His God, Jehovah of the Old Testament. So, from going from "doubting Thomas", he has become a true believer in every sense of the word, declaring Jesus to be "My Lord and my God".

People who know anything about the Watchtower's own translation of the Bible, The New World Translation will know that most of the references to Christ's Deity have been changed or weakened in an attempt to deny the great Bible truth that Jesus is God, and so make the Bible fit the Watchtower's belief that Jesus is not God. However, some how, John 20:28 seems to have escaped the butchers knife.

 

[OldRegular]

DHK got it right! But it is worth repeating!

2 john 1:9-11
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The above Scripture raise a serious doubt in my mind about "interfaith groups".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When discussing Christ deity I have found the following passage very difficult for them to deal with. 27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" John. 20:28

Most of the time they insist that Thomas was mistaken. I point out that Jesus did not correct Thomas and say: 'Don't call me God!' Thomas was a doubter but after seeing the risen Lord, he recognized exactly `Who' Jesus really is: His God, Jehovah of the Old Testament. So, from going from "doubting Thomas", he has become a true believer in every sense of the word, declaring Jesus to be "My Lord and my God".

People who know anything about the Watchtower's own translation of the Bible, The New World Translation will know that most of the references to Christ's Deity have been changed or weakened in an attempt to deny the great Bible truth that Jesus is God, and so make the Bible fit the Watchtower's belief that Jesus is not God. However, some how, John 20:28 seems to have escaped the butchers knife.

The one woman said she was using KJV. I didnt question it. But thats a good scripture.

 

[preacher4truth]

DHK got it right! But it is worth repeating!

2 john 1:9-11
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The above Scripture raise a serious doubt in my mind about "interfaith groups".

Yes, yet all dissident groups believe they abide in the doctrine of Christ as well as the true.

Now, I would not welcome a JW into my house at this point to dialogue, nor would I allow an SDA who follows EGW and denies Christ's deity.

In the past when I was a new convert and had studied Scripture regularly, we did have some JW's come over knocking on our door, and they left angrily and said 'either we're wrong or you're wrong' after our discussion.

By God's grace they could not answer against me nor the Scriptures and I was quite young in the faith yet God gave me an unquenchable desire to study His Word and to be in prayer.

The entire time we had discussion the feeling of a spirit of oppression upon them was greatly felt by my wife and myself.

Unfortunately I feel in today's economy it wouldn't be far fetched to see alleged Baptists defend them and their teachings. When I see arminians and sda's on here agreeing with one another in doctrine, and the arminians at the same time not rebuking them for their false gospel, what we have in all actuality are two camps that are really in essence one and the same.

 

[evangelist-7]

The wifes comments were, she did not know that people could truly deny Jesus as part of the Trinity...

Seriously?
There are all kinds of people in the churches who (1) haven't received that revelation.
(Jesus didn't teach it to the masses, and applicable verses are quite nicely hidden.)

Or (2) haven't been brainwashed from childhood about it.
I.E. One may be converted (not saved) into believing in the Trinity.
Ever hear of blind faith (not the olde rock group)?

.

 

[BobRyan]

First off you are not sola scriptura. I want to get that out in the open and out of the way. .

When I post Dan 7 - many here simply run from the very details in the text that do not affirm their man made traditions.

When I post Matt 18 and Matt 6 - again there is 'running away' while page after page i plead with people here to actual deal with the text details that do not affirm their man-made traditions.

When I post Romans 11 - many here simply run from the details in the text that do not fit their man-made traditions.

I am wondering if you understand the meaning of sola scriptura when you make that claim above -- or are you simply not reading the threads?

Douting Thomas knows what I am talking about -- so also E-7. They have seen that here.

When i strongly affirm the day-for-year principle also used by the Protestant reformers and other great Bible scholars - the response here is that these are considered to be like "Charles Taze Russell" founder of the JWs.

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

in any case -

back to the topic.

in Christ,

Biob

 

[steaver]

When I post Dan 7 - many here simply run from the very details in the text that do not affirm their man made traditions.

When I post Matt 18 and Matt 6 - again there is 'running away' while page after page i plead with people here to actual deal with the text details that do not affirm their man-made traditions.

When I post Romans 11 - many here simply run from the details in the text that do not fit their man-made traditions.

I am wondering if you understand the meaning of sola scriptura when you make that claim above -- or are you simply not reading the threads?

Douting Thomas knows what I am talking about -- so also E-7. They have seen that here.

When i strongly affirm the day-for-year principle also used by the Protestant reformers and other great Bible scholars - the response here is that these are considered to be like "Charles Taze Russell" founder of the JWs.

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

in any case -

back to the topic.

in Christ,

Biob

Untrue, He gave you an example of what you do using your "bible details". Anyone can take a "detail" and twist it into something wrong. JWs and Mormons are perfect examples. Your argument about "bible details" is meaningless for the details must include proper hermeneutics.

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out my statement is true and there are 3 recent threads that are loaded with "do not quote that text to us" from those who oppose it. And we both know it.

 

[preacher4truth]

When I post Dan 7 - many here simply run from the very details in the text that do not affirm their man made traditions.

When I post Matt 18 and Matt 6 - again there is 'running away' while page after page i plead with people here to actual deal with the text details that do not affirm their man-made traditions.

When I post Romans 11 - many here simply run from the details in the text that do not fit their man-made traditions.

I am wondering if you understand the meaning of sola scriptura when you make that claim above -- or are you simply not reading the threads?

Douting Thomas knows what I am talking about -- so also E-7. They have seen that here.

When i strongly affirm the day-for-year principle also used by the Protestant reformers and other great Bible scholars - the response here is that these are considered to be like "Charles Taze Russell" founder of the JWs.

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

I gave you Bible and you ignored it because it honestly dismantled your theory.

You're not sola scriptura Bob. You follow the teachings (writings) of an heretic in EGW and you use this as doctrine in your sect.

Now, as far as getting back to the topic, I was on the topic and addressed you and your false notion that EWF's methods were unscriptural. I've shown you that it is in fact Scriptural, I exposed you and other sects by candidly describing yours and their methods, and you've conveniently left that out of the equation.

Bob, I say so frankly and in concern, you have thoroughly deceived even your own self. Scripture also warns about that specifically.

 

[BobRyan]

I gave you Bible and you ignored it because it honestly dismantled your theory.

Er... umm... "no".

You gave a text on the NT work of Paul to hold debate with those who differred with him. I have never argued against such a thing. Nor did I argue against that point in your post.

But you made the wild accusation that I am not using sola scriptura testing of doctrine when in fact we all know that your false accusation is not found to be true and so i gave 3 examples where a lot of posting is available to demonstrate the point.

You're not sola scriptura Bob.

So then "like that" you make the accusation - but no "proof" that such a thing is remotely true.

See?

And I point out there ar 3 (now going to be 4) thread where I appeal to the sola scriptura test of doctrine and others insist that we "not look at" the part of the text that does not support this or that man-made tradition.

You follow the teachings (writings) of an heretic in EGW and you use this as doctrine in your sect.

Piling up false accusations or calling someone a heretic (the ideal solution in the dark ages but not today) is not the same thing as "Sola scriptura" testing of doctrine - as it turns out.

If your complaint is that I accept the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy and i accept the 1Thess 5:19-20 command not to despise the work of the Holy Spirit as He speaks through a prophet and I accept the Is 30:8-11 statement of God regarding his prophets -

They are a rebellious people,
deceptive children,
children who do not want to obey the Lord’s instruction.
10 They say to the seers, “Do not see,”
and to the prophets,
“Do not prophesy the truth to us.
Tell us flattering things.
Prophesy illusions.
11 Get out of the way!
Leave the pathway.
Rid us of the Holy One of Israel.”

Then fine - you are free to oppose those texts all you want. I do not.

In 1Cor 14 "each one has a revelation" and yet "each one was not writing scripture". Prophets with messages from God are not always writing scripture - rather they are to be tested by scripture.

Now, as far as getting back to the topic, I was on the topic and addressed you and your false notion that EWF's methods were unscriptural. I've shown you that it is in fact Scriptural,

Turns out - the "gift of prophecy" is scriptural.

How did that escape your notice??

Like the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith", the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church are listed online to be viewed by all and also the Bible texts upon which each doctrine is based.

http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/...les/official-statements/28Beliefs-English.pdf


For example the Daniel 7 basis for the Bible doctrine of the Investigative Judgment was shown here.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2059427&postcount=7

The Adventist denomination started out smaller than the Seventh-day Baptists and the SDB had some influence in getting Adventists to become Seventh-day Adventists. Now because of the unique work God has done with this denomination, the Adventist church is larger than both Southern Baptist and Seventh-day Baptists combined.

Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

"Sola Scripture"

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

The Gift of Prophecy Z18
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/...les/official-statements/28Beliefs-English.pdf

And what heresy does this "messenger from God", Ellen. G. White, teach:

Ellen White herself declared (or plagiarized) in The Great Controversy that,"before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended." (1844).

There is even found in "The Great Controversy" this denial of Him as our absolute mediator. 

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil."

http://caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/investjudge.htm

Please read carefully and understand what Ellen White says to us from her book, The Great Controversy. In the chapter which deals with the event "that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844," she writes:

"Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies, and there appears in the presence of God, to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man - to perform the work of investigative judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.

"...So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment, the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, at a later period" (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 480).

"As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected". (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 483). "At the time appointed for the judgment –the close of the 2300 days, in 1844– began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass Its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are judged 'out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works ". (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 486).

"Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the cases of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Every one must be tested, and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing". (The Great Controversy, 1950 edition, page 490).

"The Judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. Forty years has this work been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living." (The Great Controversy, 1884 edition, page 315).

From the foregoing statements EGW makes four points and we will examine each one and compare it to Scripture.
http://www.truthorfables.com/investi...ade_simple.htm

3. This judgment determines the eternal destiny of every professing believer. No one can be sure of eternal life until this judgment is complete. "The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of ‘the resurrection of life.’ Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided. ... Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected ... all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. ... The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. ... Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. ... When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 425, 431-432).

 

[steaver]

Turns out my statement is true and there are 3 recent threads that are loaded with "do not quote that text to us" from those who oppose it. And we both know it.

We ALL have the "bible details", the point is moot!

What is to be in focus is the APPLICATION of those "bible details". To WHOM is the "bible details" speaking TO, and to WHAT is the "bible details" speaking TO.

This MUST be done through proper Hermeneutics. This is what the DEBATE is to be about. Pulpit pounding "bible details" means nothing here. I see a whole lot of preaching from you and very little debate.