Jehovah's Witnesses were going door to door...

[DHK]

Turns out my statement is true and there are 3 recent threads that are loaded with "do not quote that text to us" from those who oppose it. And we both know it.

Thinking you have won a debate and actually winning it are two very different things.

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out my statement is true and there are 3 recent threads that are loaded with "do not quote that text to us" from those who oppose it. And we both know it.

We ALL have the "bible details",

Indeed we do and the Matt 18 and Matt 6 thread demonstrates your own need to avoid Bible details that do not fit your tradition.

As does the Romans 11 thread.

the point remains.

In Matt 18 you wanted to argue that the fully forgiven servant in Christ's illustration was not forgiven at all even though Christ said that he was in Matt 18:33-35.

How were we simply "not supposed to notice" that your entire argument ran aground at that point and that you had no more interest in the Bible details. Especially when the same scenario was pointed out to you in Matt 6 and the Lord's Prayer.

in Christ

Bob

 

[DHK]

Indeed we do and the Matt 18 and Matt 6 thread demonstrates your own need to avoid Bible details that do not fit your tradition.

As does the Romans 11 thread.

the point remains.

In Matt 18 you wanted to argue that the fully forgiven servant in Christ's illustration was not forgiven at all even though Christ said that he was in Matt 18:33-35.

How were we simply "not supposed to notice" that your entire argument ran aground at that point and that you had no more interest in the Bible details. Especially when the same scenario was pointed out to you in Matt 6 and the Lord's Prayer.

in Christ

Bob

There is no "we" here Bob; only "you."
You are the one in disagreement.
You are the one trying to force a heretical doctrine of "forgiveness revoked," which no one else here believes. Now you pretend you have followers by using "we".
I am sure the other board members do notice; notice the heresy that you post from EGW. That is what they notice. They notice that from their own libraries and the books that they search they can't find a single commentary that teaches "forgiveness revoked," because there is no such thing. It is simply something you have made up. It is a heresy. There is no "we". It is your heresy, and no one else's.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed we do and the Matt 18 and Matt 6 thread demonstrates your own need to avoid Bible details that do not fit your tradition.

As does the Romans 11 thread.

the point remains.

In Matt 18 you wanted to argue that the fully forgiven servant in Christ's illustration was not forgiven at all even though Christ said that he was in Matt 18:33-35.

How were we simply "not supposed to notice" that your entire argument ran aground at that point and that you had no more interest in the Bible details. Especially when the same scenario was pointed out to you in Matt 6 and the Lord's Prayer.

There is no "we" here Bob; only "you."
You are the one in disagreement.

That is fiction and we both know it DHK.

E-7 exists on this board - and does not need to deny the Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

Doubting Thomas exists on this board - and does not need to deny Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

Same is true for the Methodist denomination.

Same is true for my own denomination - which is larger than the Southern Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists combined.

So "it is only you" that think that I am the only person on this board that is choosing to believe the Bible over OSAS.

I think we all know that is simply not true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

That is fiction and we both know it DHK.

I post truth not fiction.

E-7 exists on this board - and does not need to deny the Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

Doubting Thomas exists on this board - and does not need to deny Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

But not "forgiveness revoked.

Same is true for the Methodist denomination.

Same is true for my own denomination - which is larger than the Southern Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists combined.

But not "forgiveness revoked."

So "it is only you" that think that I am the only person on this board that is choosing to believe the Bible over OSAS.

I think we all know that is simply not true.

What is true is your denial of basic bible doctrine.

There is no doubt that E-7 and possibly DT do not believe in OSAS, but I have never heard them use the term "forgiveness revoked." That theological gem is exclusively yours, and yours alone. Others have their reasons why they believe one may lose their salvation; you draw your doctrine from a parable--absolute nonsense! It is a practice that most cults do, and one that is not herneneutically sound.
When it looks like a cult; posts like a cult; reads like a cult; well, just maybe, Bob, it is a...........

 

[Yeshua1]

That is fiction and we both know it DHK.

E-7 exists on this board - and does not need to deny the Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

Doubting Thomas exists on this board - and does not need to deny Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

Same is true for the Methodist denomination.

Same is true for my own denomination - which is larger than the Southern Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists combined.

So "it is only you" that think that I am the only person on this board that is choosing to believe the Bible over OSAS.

I think we all know that is simply not true.

in Christ,

Bob

JESUS stated for us that ALL who come to Him , he will raise up in the last day as resurrected, NONE will be lost...

Should we agree with God Incarnate, or a false prophetess?

 

[OldRegular]

JESUS stated for us that ALL who come to Him , he will raise up in the last day as resurrected, NONE will be lost...

Should we agree with God Incarnate, or a false prophetess?

You are simply spinning your wheels. Do you expect one who follows a false prophetess to believe Scripture. Ryan is like those spoken of in the Church at Thyatira:

Revelation 2:20-24
20. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Ellen G. White is a Jezebel!

 

[preacher4truth]

You are simply spinning your wheels. Do you expect one who follows a false prophetess to believe Scripture. Ryan is like those spoken of in the Church at Thyatira:

Revelation 2:20-24
20. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Ellen G. White is a Jezebel!

Yes, but they are deceived, and deceive themselves in myriads of ways to the extent that they love and believe a lie, even the lies of Ellen G White.

 

[saturneptune]

Seriously?
There are all kinds of people in the churches who (1) haven't received that revelation.
(Jesus didn't teach it to the masses, and applicable verses are quite nicely hidden.)

Or (2) haven't been brainwashed from childhood about it.
I.E. One may be converted (not saved) into believing in the Trinity.
Ever hear of blind faith (not the olde rock group)?

.

And..........there are all kinds of people on this board that would not know correct doctrine or Scripture if it smacked you up side the head.

Yes indeedy, give the JWs enough time, they might come around to adopting the SDA beliefs, like no Trinity, no Diety of Christ, and who knows, they may even start doing the skip to my lou to church on Saturday. I mean, if they agree with the SDAs, they are right at heaven's gate. (that is of course, they did not lose their salvation in the meantime)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And..........there are all kinds of people on this board that would not know correct doctrine or Scripture if it smacked you up side the head.

Yes indeedy, give the JWs enough time, they might come around to adopting the SDA beliefs, like no Trinity, no Diety of Christ, and who knows, they may even start doing the skip to my lou to church on Saturday. I mean, if they agree with the SDAs, they are right at heaven's gate. (that is of course, they did not lose their salvation in the meantime)

S/N.....these people are merely entertainment value. Nobody takes them seriously.

 

[BobRyan]

As the MAtt 18 thread proves - the forgiveness revoked teaching of Matt 18 and Matt 6 and Ezek 18 is accepted by DoubtingThomas and E-7 and myself.

There is no "we" here Bob; only "you."
You are the one in disagreement.
You are the one trying to force a heretical doctrine of "forgiveness revoked," which no one else here believes.

That is fiction and we both know it DHK.

E-7 exists on this board - and does not need to deny the Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

Doubting Thomas exists on this board - and does not need to deny Matt 18 and Matt 6 texts that debunk OSAS.

Same is true for the Methodist denomination.

Same is true for my own denomination - which is larger than the Southern Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists combined.

So "it is only you" that think that I am the only person on this board that is choosing to believe the Bible over OSAS.

I think we all know that is simply not true.

I post truth not fiction.

But not "forgiveness revoked.

But not "forgiveness revoked."

What is true is your denial of basic bible doctrine.

There is no doubt that E-7 and possibly DT do not believe in OSAS, but I have never heard them use the term "forgiveness revoked."

They have both made it clear that their endorsement of Romans 11 and Matt 18 rather than the man-made-tradition of OSAS is because they accept the fact that both these examples show full forgiveness - full salvation being revoked.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

As the MAtt 18 thread proves - the forgiveness revoked teaching of Matt 18 and Matt 6 and Ezek 18 is accepted by DoubtingThomas and E-7 and myself.

This is not true, "and we both know it."
An agreement to deny OSAS is not an automatic sanction on the heresy of "forgiveness revoked," just as it is not an automatic sanction on the entire SDA movement. Did they agree with all the teaching of EGW as well, Bob?

They have both made it clear that their endorsement of Romans 11 and Matt 18 rather than the man-made-tradition of OSAS is because they accept the fact that both these examples show full forgiveness - full salvation being revoked.
Bob

"Salvation revoked" does not come from the Bible, it comes from you. I don't find any other board member in agreement with you on this strange doctrine. If there be any let them come forward and say so. Otherwise you are not their spokesperson.

 

[BobRyan]

I have been pointing to the OSAS debunking fact that we have "forgiveness revoked" taught in Matt 18.

Obviously all denominations such as Methodists and Seventh-day Adventists and I suppose Free Will Baptists accept this Bible teaching from Matt 18 and forgiveness revoked.

"Salvation revoked" does not come from the Bible, it comes from you. I don't find any other board member in agreement with you on this strange doctrine. If there be any let them come forward and say so. Otherwise you are not their spokesperson.

Steaver initially started that game - as if these well known Christian groups that also accept the Bible texts that disprove OSAS - do not exist.

But we already saw that his game does not go very far -- I doubt that he was ever serious about it.

==================

You have built a nonsensical argument claiming that "[FONT=&quot]pardon was retracted" is not "forgiveness revoked" as if anyone here would believe such wild bit of fiction. Why fall on your sword over such nonsense?[/FONT]

Word to the wise - Don't fall on your sword over Steaver's gaming tactics in your eagerness to employ "any ol excuse will do" methods instead of Sola Scriptura testing of doctrine.


Matthew Henry "he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance"
Grant "The man's forgiveness was rescinded,"
Wesley "[FONT=&quot]pardon was retracted"[/FONT]
=====================


In any case John Wesley is an example of someone "Admitting to the obvious" in Matt 18 (which should surprise no one but those trying to game this topic instead of dealing with the actual Bible details)

[FONT=&quot]John Wesley on Matt 18:34-35[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]1. The debtor was freely and fully forgiven;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. He wilfully and grievously offended;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. His pardon was retracted, the whole debt required, and the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]offender delivered to the tormentors for ever. And shall we still [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]say, but when we are once freely and fully forgiven, our pardon [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]can never be retracted? Verily, verily, I say unto you, So likewise [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]will my heavenly Father do to you, if ye from your hearts forgive [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]not every one his brother their trespasses[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

Quote:


[/FONT] Quote:
[FONT=&quot]Coffman[/FONT][FONT=&quot] on Matt 18 - [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The great problem in the parable is in the fact that after the unmerciful servant [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was forgiven, he yet landed in the hands of the tormentors[/FONT][FONT=&quot] until he should pay it all. The wise words of Richard Trench give the true explanation: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Quote:
Richard Trench
[/FONT]Quote:
[FONT=&quot]Nor may we leave out of sight that all forgiveness, short of that crowning and last act, which will find place on the day of judgment, and will be followed by a blessed impossibility of sinning any more, is conditional - in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the very nature of things so conditional, that the condition in every case must be assumed, whether stated or no;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that condition being that the forgiven man continues in faith and obedience ... which this unmerciful servant had failed to do.


[/FONT] Quote:

Joseph Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments


[FONT=&quot]The debtor was freely and fully forgiven; 2, He wilfully and grievously offended; 3, His pardon was retracted, the whole debt required, and the offender delivered to the tormentors for ever. And shall we still say, that when we are once freely and fully forgiven, our pardon can never be retracted? Verily, verily I say unto you, So likewise will my heavenly Father do to you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/FONT]

L. M. Grant's Commentary on the Bible



[FONT=&quot]Matt 18[/FONT]
The Lord's illustration as to the kingdom of heaven is most pointed. The king's servant who owed ten thousand talents is typical of everyone of us by nature and practice, for our debt of sin has been tremendously beyond our ability to pay. Righteousness demands satisfaction, and the man faces the tragedy of losing everything, including, his wife and children and his own freedom. He pleads for mercy and time to pay, so that his lord compassionately forgave him the debt. This illustrates the fact that anyone whom God forgives has been forgiven a debt that is for beyond the possibility of our ever paying it.

Certainly we should therefore have the same forgiving spirit toward others. Yet this servant, though entreated by his fellow servant to have patience with him, is adamant in demanding payment of a debt of a hundred pence, and has him imprisoned till he should pay the debt. He himself had owed 700,000 times as much, yet forgets how he has been shown such great mercy.
Other fellow servants have observed this painful action, however, and it is good to see that they were not merely angry or bitter, but "very sorry." They tell their Lord, who calls the offending servant to account. Calling him a wicked servant, he reminds him that had received mercy when helped for it, and asks if he ought not to have shown similar compassion toward his fellow servant. The man's forgiveness was rescinded, and he was delivered to the tormenters, evidently confined to the rigors of prison until he should pay all his debt. This was a righteous recompense for his having done this to his fellow servant.



[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 18[/FONT]
(2.) How he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance, so that the judgment against him revived He delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Though the wickedness was very great, his lord laid upon him no other punishment than the payment of his own debt. Note, Those that will not come up to the terms of the gospel need be no more miserable than to be left open to the law, and to let that have its course against them. See how the punishment answers the sin he that would not forgive shall not be forgiven He delivered him to the tormentors the utmost he could do to his fellow servant was but to cast him into prison, but he was himself delivered to the tormentors. Note, The power of God's wrath to ruin us, goes far beyond the utmost extent of any creature's strength and wrath. The reproaches and terrors of his own conscience would be his tormentors, for that is a worm that dies not devils, the executioners of God's wrath, that are sinners' tempters now, will be their tormentors for ever. He was sent to Bridewell till he should pay all. Note, Our debts to God are never compounded either all is forgiven or all is exacted glorified saints in heaven are pardoned all, through Christ's complete satisfaction damned sinners in hell are paying all, that is, are punished for all. The offence done to God by sin is in point of honour, which cannot be compounded for without such a diminution as the case will by no means admit, and therefore, some way or other, by the sinner or by his surety, it must be satisfied.

 

[DHK]

I have been pointing to the OSAS debunking fact that we have "forgiveness revoked" taught in Matt 18.

Obviously all denominations such as Methodists and Seventh-day Adventists and I suppose Free Will Baptists accept this Bible teaching from Matt 18 and forgiveness revoked.

No they don't. Many believe that salvation can be lost. But this heretical doctrine of yours is yet to be found.

I pointed this out in another thread. MH believes in eternal security. Do you even care? Do you read his post carefully?

[FONT=&quot]

Matthew Henry[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 18[/FONT]
Note, Our debts to God are never compounded either all is forgiven or all is exacted glorified saints in heaven are pardoned all, through Christ's complete satisfaction damned sinners in hell are paying all, that is, are punished for all. The offence done to God by sin is in point of honour, which cannot be compounded for without such a diminution as the case will by no means admit, and therefore, some way or other, by the sinner or by his surety, it must be satisfied.

Again: repetition is good for the soul:

Our debts to God are never compounded either all is forgiven or all is exacted glorified saints in heaven are pardoned all, through Christ's complete satisfaction damned sinners in hell are paying all, that is, are punished for all. The offence done to God by sin is in point of honour, which cannot be compounded for without such a diminution as the case will by no means admit, and therefore, some way or other, by the sinner or by his surety, it must be satisfied.

The glorified saints in heaven are pardoned all, through Christ's complete satisfaction. Note, there is complete pardon given to the glorified saints. There is no such thing here as "forgiveness revoked." You make it up.

Second. Damned sinners in hell are paying all, that is, are punished for all.
There is a delineation between the "damned" and the "glorified saints," If you can't see that you are blind to the truth of God's Word.

 

[BobRyan]

No they don't. Many believe that salvation can be lost. But this heretical doctrine of yours is yet to be found.

Try not to be too shocked that your empty accusations do not hold water as you and I both know.

Not only do I show that commentaries where the author rejects OSAS - are using the phrase you so object to -- but even OSAS-believing authors like Matthew Henry are using it in Matt 18.

The force of the truth - the Bible details in Matt 18 simply too compelling for them to all turn a blind eye to scripture the way you seem to think they should.



Matthew Henry "he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance"
Grant "The man's forgiveness was rescinded,"
Wesley "[FONT=&quot]pardon was retracted"[/FONT]
=====================


In any case John Wesley is an example of someone "Admitting to the obvious" in Matt 18 (which should surprise no one but those trying to game this topic instead of dealing with the actual Bible details)

[FONT=&quot]John Wesley on Matt 18:34-35[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]1. The debtor was freely and fully forgiven;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. He wilfully and grievously offended;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. His pardon was retracted, the whole debt required, and the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]offender delivered to the tormentors for ever. And shall we still [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]say, but when we are once freely and fully forgiven, our pardon [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]can never be retracted? Verily, verily, I say unto you, So likewise [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]will my heavenly Father do to you, if ye from your hearts forgive [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]not every one his brother their trespasses[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

Quote:


[/FONT] Quote:
[FONT=&quot]Coffman[/FONT][FONT=&quot] on Matt 18 - [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The great problem in the parable is in the fact that after the unmerciful servant [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was forgiven, he yet landed in the hands of the tormentors[/FONT][FONT=&quot] until he should pay it all. The wise words of Richard Trench give the true explanation: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Quote:
Richard Trench
[/FONT]Quote:
[FONT=&quot]Nor may we leave out of sight that all forgiveness, short of that crowning and last act, which will find place on the day of judgment, and will be followed by a blessed impossibility of sinning any more, is conditional - in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the very nature of things so conditional, that the condition in every case must be assumed, whether stated or no;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that condition being that the forgiven man continues in faith and obedience ... which this unmerciful servant had failed to do.


[/FONT] Quote:

Joseph Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments


[FONT=&quot]The debtor was freely and fully forgiven; 2, He wilfully and grievously offended; 3, His pardon was retracted, the whole debt required, and the offender delivered to the tormentors for ever. And shall we still say, that when we are once freely and fully forgiven, our pardon can never be retracted? Verily, verily I say unto you, So likewise will my heavenly Father do to you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/FONT]

L. M. Grant's Commentary on the Bible



[FONT=&quot]Matt 18[/FONT]
The Lord's illustration as to the kingdom of heaven is most pointed. The king's servant who owed ten thousand talents is typical of everyone of us by nature and practice, for our debt of sin has been tremendously beyond our ability to pay. Righteousness demands satisfaction, and the man faces the tragedy of losing everything, including, his wife and children and his own freedom. He pleads for mercy and time to pay, so that his lord compassionately forgave him the debt. This illustrates the fact that anyone whom God forgives has been forgiven a debt that is for beyond the possibility of our ever paying it.

Certainly we should therefore have the same forgiving spirit toward others. Yet this servant, though entreated by his fellow servant to have patience with him, is adamant in demanding payment of a debt of a hundred pence, and has him imprisoned till he should pay the debt. He himself had owed 700,000 times as much, yet forgets how he has been shown such great mercy.
Other fellow servants have observed this painful action, however, and it is good to see that they were not merely angry or bitter, but "very sorry." They tell their Lord, who calls the offending servant to account. Calling him a wicked servant, he reminds him that had received mercy when helped for it, and asks if he ought not to have shown similar compassion toward his fellow servant. The man's forgiveness was rescinded, and he was delivered to the tormenters, evidently confined to the rigors of prison until he should pay all his debt. This was a righteous recompense for his having done this to his fellow servant.



[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 18[/FONT]
(2.) How he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance, so that the judgment against him revived He delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Though the wickedness was very great, his lord laid upon him no other punishment than the payment of his own debt. Note, Those that will not come up to the terms of the gospel need be no more miserable than to be left open to the law, and to let that have its course against them. See how the punishment answers the sin he that would not forgive shall not be forgiven He delivered him to the tormentors the utmost he could do to his fellow servant was but to cast him into prison, but he was himself delivered to the tormentors. Note, The power of God's wrath to ruin us, goes far beyond the utmost extent of any creature's strength and wrath. The reproaches and terrors of his own conscience would be his tormentors, for that is a worm that dies not devils, the executioners of God's wrath, that are sinners' tempters now, will be their tormentors for ever. He was sent to Bridewell till he should pay all. Note, Our debts to God are never compounded either all is forgiven or all is exacted glorified saints in heaven are pardoned all, through Christ's complete satisfaction damned sinners in hell are paying all, that is, are punished for all. The offence done to God by sin is in point of honour, which cannot be compounded for without such a diminution as the case will by no means admit, and therefore, some way or other, by the sinner or by his surety, it must be satisfied. __________________
John 8:32 "The Truth shall make you free"

 

[DHK]

Try not to be too shocked that your empty accusations do not hold water as you and I both know.

Not only do I show that commentaries where the author rejects OSAS - are using the phrase you so object to -- but even OSAS-believing authors like Matthew Henry are using it in Matt 18.

The force of the truth - the Bible details in Matt 18 simply too compelling for them to all turn a blind eye to scripture the way you seem to think they should.

Matthew Henry "he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance"

You are a dishonest man Bob Ryan!!
You take a quote here, and a quote there; here a bit and there a bit; piecemeal it all together and then foolishly try to make a person believe the opposite of what he does actually believe.
It is called slander; dishonesty, and should not be allowed.
I don't know what can be done about it.
You have slandered people like D.L. Moody in the past by doing the same type of thing--saying he believes in something when he doesn't.

What does Matthew Henry believe. Look at his commentary and see:

III. A further discourse of our Saviour's, by way of parable, to show the necessity of forgiving the injuries that are done to us. Parables are of use, not only for the pressing of Christian duties; for they make and leave an impression. The parable is a comment upon the fifth petition of the Lord's prayer, Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. Those, and those only, may expect to be forgiven of God, who forgive their brethren. The parable represents the kingdom of heaven, that is, the church, and the administration of the gospel dispensation in it. The church is God's family, it is his court; there he dwells, there he rules. God is our master; his servants we are, at least in profession and obligation. In general, the parable intimates how much provocation God has from his family on earth, and how untoward his servants are.

If you use MH as a source then you must look at the parable from his point of view. He believes that the kingdom is the church. He also believes that there are two kinds of servants: one, by profession only, and the other by obligation, or truly saved. He will clarify that in further quotes.

(4.) The debt of sin is so great, that we are not able to pay it; He had not to pay. Sinners are insolvent debtors; the scripture, which concludes all under sin, is a statute of bankruptcy against us all. Silver and gold would not pay our debt, Ps 49:6-7. Sacrifice and offering would not do it; our good works are but God's work in us, and cannot make satisfaction; we are without strength, and cannot help ourselves.

Salvation is not of works, but by faith alone.

Sinners are commonly careless about the pardon of their sins, till they come under the arrests of some awakening word, some startling providence, or approaching death, and then, Wherewith shall I come before the Lord? Mic 6:6. How easily, how quickly, can God bring the proudest sinner to his feet; Ahab to his sackcloth, Manasseh to his prayers, Pharaoh to his confessions, Judas to his restitution, Simon Magus to his supplication, Belshazzar and Felix to their tremblings. The stoutest heart will fail, when God sets the sins in order before it. This servant doth not deny the debt, nor seek evasions, nor go about to abscond.

Was Ahab, Manasseh, Pharaoh, Judas, Simon Magus, Belshazzar, or Felix ever saved? No. But they all, at one time or another, "repented," sought "forgiveness," were "convicted of their sin," etc. But they were never saved in the first place, were they?

What does Matthew Henry see as the real application of the parable, the real lesson that you have so conveniently missed or purposely omitted??

See here, (1.) How small the debt was, how very small, compared with the ten thousand talents which his lord forgave him; He owed him a hundred pence, about three pounds and half a crown of our money. Note, Offences done to men are nothing to those which are committed against God. Dishonours done to a man like ourselves are but as peace, motes, gnats; but dishonours done to God are as talents, beams, camels. Not that therefore we may make light of wronging our neighbour, for that is also a sin against God; but therefore we should make light of our neighbour's wronging us, and not aggravate it, or study revenge. David was unconcerned as the indignities done to him; I, as a deaf man, heard not; but laid much to heart the sins committed against God; for them, rivers of tears ran down his eyes.

Isn't it amazing how you say that MH teaches contrary to what his commentary says that he teaches. I would call that slander and lying, wouldn't you?

 

[prophet]

He's right about the heretic, Wesley.
My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. This includes the man, himself, who believes...neither can he pluck himself out of God's hand...
All that the Father give, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out...not on the wise of unforgiveness...not on any wise.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Try not to be too shocked that your empty accusations do not hold water as you and I both know.

Not only do I show that commentaries where the author rejects OSAS - are using the phrase you so object to -- but even OSAS-believing authors like Matthew Henry are using it in Matt 18.

The force of the truth - the Bible details in Matt 18 simply too compelling for them to all turn a blind eye to scripture the way you seem to think they should.


Matthew Henry "he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance"
Grant "The man's forgiveness was rescinded,"
Wesley "[FONT=&quot]pardon was retracted"[/FONT]

You are a dishonest man Bob Ryan!!
You take a quote here, and a quote there; here a bit and there a bit; piecemeal it all together and then foolishly try to make a person believe the opposite of what he does actually believe.
It is called slander; dishonesty, and should not be allowed.
I don't know what can be done about it.
You have slandered people like D.L. Moody in the past by doing the same type of thing--saying he believes in something when he doesn't.

Totally false and we both know it. You fear a direct quote of D.L. Moody as he debunks your own version of law breaking as He condemns those who try to downsize the Law of God the way you do. So you spin every falsehood you can imagine into the mere quote of D.L. Moody. Then you make up nonsense as if I had ever said that Moody did not support a Sunday-Sabbath idea. Your entire defense based solely on "making stuff up" and then disallowing the quotes of Moody in HIS OWN language - debunking your false accusations. How sad indeed.

You now appear to fear a direct quote of Matthew Henry as HE uses the very phrase you were so willing to denounce when I say "forgiveness revoked". How sad that his responding to the "Force of the Truth" in Matt 18 is greeted with such antagonism in your posts - ignoring his quote on that very point, because you have dedicated yourself to a rant against it. Then you make up nonsense as if I had ever said MH was not in favor of OSAS.... how sad.

But I think you like playing the game where you say things totally false and then invent nonsense about it being wrong to quote D.L Moody on this board if he is quoted "by me".

What nonsensical arguments your man-made-traditions drive you to -- it is innexplicable and yet "instructive" for all. None of us wold wish to be so extreme as can be seen in your defense of error.

As for the quote from Matthew Henry it is "exact". Your efforts to "blame me" when your own icons use language that is not always flattering your man-made tradition - is sad.

If you use MH as a source then you must look at the parable from his point of view. He believes that the kingdom is the church.

I was responding to Steaver's claim and your wild claim added - that no one used the phrase I used or spoke to the point I was speaking to.

As I noted in the quote from me above - MH believes in OSAS and STILL uses the phrase you complain about.

How sad for your "gaming" argument.

Obviously MH would want to spin the parable and find a way for OSAS to survive it. My point was simply that he did acknowledge that phrase as valid.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 18[/FONT]
(2.) How he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance, so that the judgment against him revived He delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Though the wickedness was very great, his lord laid upon him no other punishment than the payment of his own debt. Note, Those that will not come up to the terms of the gospel need be no more miserable than to be left open to the law, and to let that have its course against them. See how the punishment answers the sin he that would not forgive shall not be forgiven He delivered him to the tormentors the utmost he could do to his fellow servant was but to cast him into prison, but he was himself delivered to the tormentors. Note, The power of God's wrath to ruin us, goes far beyond the utmost extent of any creature's strength and wrath. The reproaches and terrors of his own conscience would be his tormentors, for that is a worm that dies not devils, the executioners of God's wrath, that are sinners' tempters now, will be their tormentors for ever. He was sent to Bridewell till he should pay all. Note, Our debts to God are never compounded either all is forgiven or all is exacted glorified saints in heaven are pardoned all, through Christ's complete satisfaction damned sinners in hell are paying all, that is, are punished for all. The offence done to God by sin is in point of honour, which cannot be compounded for without such a diminution as the case will by no means admit, and therefore, some way or other, by the sinner or by his surety, it must be satisfied.

The same one you and Steaver complain about.

Glaringly obvious to all by now -- and we both know it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Try not to be too shocked that your empty accusations do not hold water as you and I both know.

Not only do I show that commentaries where the author rejects OSAS - are using the phrase you so object to -- but even OSAS-believing authors like Matthew Henry are using it in Matt 18.

The force of the truth - the Bible details in Matt 18 simply too compelling for them to all turn a blind eye to scripture the way you seem to think they should.

It is really too bad that you don't answer the points I actually raised in post that refute your position. You simply give the same old rant; the same old rant; the same old rant.
People get tired of hearing it.

Matthew Henry "

he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance"

Grant "The man's forgiveness was rescinded,"
Wesley "[FONT=&quot]pardon was retracted"[/FONT]

Same old; same old; same old. We have read them the first time. Why are you taking up valuable space?

Totally false and we both know it. You fear a direct quote of D.L. Moody as he debunks your own version of law breaking as He condemns those who try to downsize the Law of God the way you do. So you spin every falsehood you can imagine into the mere quote of D.L. Moody. Then you make up nonsense as if I had ever said that Moody did not support a Sunday-Sabbath idea. Your entire defense based solely on "making stuff up" and then disallowing the quotes of Moody in HIS OWN language - debunking your false accusations. How sad indeed.

Have you even read Moody's sermon on the Sabbath.
1. The Bible stipulates that the Sabbath is on the last day of the week, which happens to fall on Saturday.
2. Moody says that he works on Saturday more than on any other day of the week. It is his busiest day. He works on the Sabbath. That is not keeping the Sabbath.
3. His entire sermon is admonishing Christians to come to church on Sunday, which he mistakenly calls the Sabbath. His mistake doesn't not make it right. He still does not keep the Sabbath. You say he does; he does not. He works on the Sabbath, according to his own testimony. It is his busiest day. The day he rests is Sunday which he mistakenly calls the Sabbath. You slander him.
4. He stipulates at the end of his message that all that he preaches has no relevance or agreement with SDA doctrine which he believes is heresy.
--How then do you dare use him as a reference? You are a fool to do so!!

You now appear to fear a direct quote of Matthew Henry as HE uses the very phrase you were so willing to denounce when I say "forgiveness revoked". How sad that his responding to the "Force of the Truth" in Matt 18 is greeted with such antagonism in your posts - ignoring his quote on that very point, because you have dedicated yourself to a rant against it. Then you make up nonsense as if I had ever said MH was not in favor of OSAS.... how sad.

Again, you refuse to address the actual points that I addressed from the quotes provided by Matthew Henry himself! Why is that? They defeat your position. Instead you take pieces out of context. Read again what he said, from where I quoted, then refute that, instead of posting the same old; the same old; the same old.
We have had enough of that. Address the actual points in the post.

 

[BobRyan]

Have you even read Moody's sermon on the Sabbath.
1. The Bible stipulates that the Sabbath is on the last day of the week, which happens to fall on Saturday.

2. Moody says that he works on Saturday more than on any other day of the week. It is his busiest day. He works on the Sabbath. That is not keeping the Sabbath.

First of all I repeatedly argue that Moody states that the Sabbath of the 4th commandment is to be kept - and believes that Sunday-keeping is in compliance with that commandment after the cross. And I repeatedly object to his trying to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

You simply ignore this so you can repeat your signature false accusations.

Moody argued for Sunday as the Sabbath.

Moody said this about what HE was doing

[FONT=&quot]1. CESSATION FROM SECULAR WORK[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.[/FONT]

Sadly you content yourself with denying the actual words in his own sermon about his own practice.

2. Moody says that he works on Saturday more than on any other day of the week. It is his busiest day. He works on the Sabbath. That is not keeping the Sabbath.

As for the nonsense that D.L. Moody did not regard Sunday as the Sabbath -

[FONT=&quot]2. RELIGIOUS ACTIVITY[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and I remember how we boys used to shout when it was over. It was the worst day in the week to us. I believe it can be made the brightest day in the week. Every child ought to be reared so that he shall be able to say that he would rather have the other six days weeded out of his memory than the Sabbath of his childhood. [/FONT]

Just the facts - no matter how frightened you may be of the actual words in D.L. Moody's sermon.

Some of the same points that Moody makes can also be found in the "Baptist Confession of Faith" so it is inexplicable that you are so frightened of the actual words in Moody's sermon and yet you seem to be willing to tolerate the quote of the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

in Christ,

Bob