Protestants believe that the pope is the man of sin sitting in the temple of God declaring himself to be God.
Have you ever read the claims of the popes claiming to be equal to God?
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Jesus 2nd coming is yet future
- Thread starter Calypsis4
- Start date
Protestants believe that the pope is the man of sin sitting in the temple of God declaring himself to be God.
Have you ever read the claims of the popes claiming to be equal to God?
I know they claim to be equal to Peter, and thus leader of the Church. I didn't know of claims to be God. Also Protestants run the gamut on eschatology, but yeah traditionally the RCC figured prominently in formulations about the Antichrist.
Calypsis4
Member
That simply isn't true and you are stretching scripture beyond what is true and honest.
II Thess. 2:4 tells of a coming literal Antichrist who will stand in a coming literal temple that will be built during the times of the gentiles and that coming world dictator will deceive the whole world into believing that he is the king and anointed One. Revelation 13:8. Everyone on earth shall worship him, at least for a time...or be killed for not worshipping him. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN A.D. 70 nor any other time subsequent to that date. Proof: (check out what I said about the Ceasar's of that time. None of them qualify just by the dates they reigned.)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
How can those words possibly be fulfilled if what you're saying about the temple (i.e. exists only in man's heart) is true? These words cannot be fulfilled merely within the heart of believers......why? BECAUSE...........'every eye shall see...' Rev. 1:7. Everyone who is alive on planet earth will see Jesus coming in the clouds just as He promised. Not as you are thinking of it and not as those who hold to an A.D. 70 'coming'.
There is only one other who is called 'the son of perdition' in scripture beside the coming Antichrist: Judas Iscariot...the type and precursor to that coming world dictator. He will be a man in the flesh just as Judas was.
I notice, David Kent, that you did not answer all my points in the OP even though you've had weeks to reply. That's because you cannot and you know it.
Thank you sir,
I do not believe that most of your points happened in AD 70. The kingdom was taken away from them and given to another at that time; some have happened in history.
The Literal Antichrist is the papal kingdom. The temple is the church as Paul tell the Christians. The pope sitting as he claims at the head of the Church, which Paul says is the temple of God, shows he is Antichrist, also Vicar of Christ means exactly the same as Antichrist.
Calypsis4
Member
No, it does not. Catholicism is the seat of Mystery Babylon, not Antichrist the person.
Quote: Revelation13: 4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.":
Notice the several personal pronouns describing this coming Antichrist.The Roman Catholic Church is NOT the church that Paul was describing with the pope as head (Vicar of Christ) of the church.There is one true church and a false or counterfeit church (that same Mystery Babylon religion previously mentioned) and also, it will be Antichrist as a person who will blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ. And that coming world dictator will rule the world for 42 months. That has never happened in history. If you disagree then name him.
I am wondering why you did not answer my OP point by point as I requested. You've certainly had the time to think it all through. Will you answer that question, please?
I don't need to answer every point as I agreed with you that most did not happen in AD 70, except the kingdom being taken from them and as you will disagree with me anyway, what is the point?
You are a futurist and that is a modern teaching, divorced from the traditional teaching of the church,
You say that, and yet all of the Apsotles and many of the ECF also held to a future second coming, and with future events yet to happen!
Calypsis4
Member
You are far from reality on this. It is not a 'modern teaching' as opposed to your imagined 'traditional teaching of the church'.
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to a direct follower of the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation)... Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day...
Iranaeus:Against Heresies
book V chap. 30
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision (John). For that was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.
Domitians reign was from A.D. 81 to A.D. 96.
Going further with Irenaeus, quote: "The fraud, pride, and tyrannical kingdom of Antichrist, as described by Daniel and Paul:
1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king." (Wikipedia and numerous other sources).
The dates are important for they prove that those who were close to John were still looking forward to the coming of Christ.
But I asked you specifically to give me a date for what you believe was the 2nd coming of Christ. You didn't. Why is that?
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So when did this happen? You need to provide a date and substantial evidence that this actually happened if you expect us to believe you. When did all the tribes of the earth see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven?
Because I didn't notice your question, Believing in a future coming of Jesus Christ does not make one a futurist. What makes one a futurist is throwing MOST of the book of Revelation into the future.
Of course I believe in the future coming of Christ. One Coming, not two or three or more.
- Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
You all love to take a verse or two from scripture and build a doctrine on it. You start at verse 30 and work backwards, building your teaching on that. Why don't you start at the beginning and look at what is actually said. The context begins in Matthew 23. And why do you always quote Matthew and not Mark and Luke?
Calypsis4
Member
Forget the labels. All of Revelation is in the future as you perhaps shall soon see.
You're only half right. At the rapture He does not touch down on earth. So there will be truly only one second coming.
You wanted Mark or Luke. O.K. I give you
Luke 21:35-36
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (that's the 7 yr tribulation & will involve the entire population of the world)
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.(So to 'escape' is to 'stand before the Son of Man'. That's the rapture. That matches perfectly with I Corinthians 15:51-52, I Thess. 4:15-17, & Revelation 4:1-2 where John is seen raptured up to heaven BEFORE he is given the prophecies of the future in Chapters 6-19.)
There is one second coming but it comes in two stages: (1) to bring His bride unto Himself & to the marriage supper of the Lamb and (2) the literal, visible, coming in which 'every eye shall see' Rev. 1:7.
Calypsis4
Member
"...a verse or two"? Sir, you aren't being truthful. In the OP alone I quoted ten passages of scripture. You are free to count all the other passages I quoted in my other posts since then.
Why continue with you if you aren't even going to be honest about what has been laid before you?
I was taught that when I was in the Brethren. It is false.
Jesus will descend and we will meet Him in the air.
That is your opinion. Nowhere does it say that the tribulation would be seven years as far as I can see. The tribulation in Olivet is on Judea and Jerusalem because it was those in the capital who saw the abomination, the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, who were to flee before the city fell. If it was a future idol in the temple, the city would already have fallen and only the high priest would see that, if he had not been killed before.
The great tribulation in Revelation is on Christian believers
- Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
No, it ISN'T.
While there are, were, & will be many antichrists, there'll be one in particular who will make all the others seem like naughty toddlers in comparison. This man is called the beast, man of sin, son of perdition, "that Wicked", etc. in Scripture. And no, it's not the pope or line of popes.
This man, among other evils he will do, will go into the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, & declare himself to be God. No pope ever did that.
The idea that this man of sin is the line of popes is preterist horse feathers.
Calypsis4
Member
David Kent; That is your opinion. Nowhere does it say that the tribulation would be seven years as far as I can see. The tribulation in Olivet is on Judea and Jerusalem because it was those in the capital who saw the abomination, the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, who were to flee before the city fell. If it was a future idol in the temple, the city would already have fallen and only the high priest would see that, if he had not been killed before.
I'm not giving you opinions. Count the sevens in Revelation & do some adding. Read Daniel 9:25-27 and you will see the one week of prophecy which is seven years in length. If you don't accept that (in light of 'each day for a year' in Numbers 14:34) then you have to explain what those weeks mean. I don't think you can.
Luke 21:35-36 is not an opinion. It is the Word of God and it will involve the entire world and not just 'Olivet, Judea & Jerusallem.
The A.D. 70 event was only a partial fulfillment because the Jews did not repent as Paul said they would. Romans 11:26. God therefore postponed the kingdom just as Jesus said would happen.
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Matthew 21:43.
The great tribulation in Revelation is on Christian believers
No, it is not. The Bride of Christ will be in heaven with the bridegroom. It is the 'Time of Jacob's' trouble and the days of vengeance will be complete as it regards Israel.
No, again. Jewish people who accepted Jesus Christ have also washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb --- since the crucifixion. So it will be for those who are converted to Christ during the coming tribulation...whether they are gentiles or Jews. You should have quoted the verse that puts this matter in context , vs 9 "After this I beheld, and , lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palms in their hands." So all races, languages, and families of the earth who accept Christ during that time will wear those robes. Your theology is not honest.
I believe I will move on to other posters.
I'm not giving you opinions. Count the sevens in Revelation & do some adding. Read Daniel 9:25-27 and you will see the one week of prophecy which is seven years in length. If you don't accept that (in light of 'each day for a year' in Numbers 14:34) then you have to explain what those weeks mean. I don't think you can.
Luke 21:35-36 is not an opinion. It is the Word of God and it will involve the entire world and not just 'Olivet, Judea & Jerusallem.
The A.D. 70 event was only a partial fulfillment because the Jews did not repent as Paul said they would. Romans 11:26. God therefore postponed the kingdom just as Jesus said would happen.
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Matthew 21:43.
The great tribulation in Revelation is on Christian believers
No, it is not. The Bride of Christ will be in heaven with the bridegroom. It is the 'Time of Jacob's' trouble and the days of vengeance will be complete as it regards Israel.
- Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
No, again. Jewish people who accepted Jesus Christ have also washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb --- since the crucifixion. So it will be for those who are converted to Christ during the coming tribulation...whether they are gentiles or Jews. You should have quoted the verse that puts this matter in context , vs 9 "After this I beheld, and , lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palms in their hands." So all races, languages, and families of the earth who accept Christ during that time will wear those robes. Your theology is not honest.
I believe I will move on to other posters.
The papacy actually would fit the False prophet role better!
It seems the RCC has something to do with MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, because the city talked of associated with that empire has to be Rome. My opinion is that the role of False Prophet seems to be all churches lost in the throes of the spirit of Antichrist including the high church and the Charismatics. All these reprobate churches have to do is support the Man of Lawlessness and they seem to be a solid fit for the bill.
The Pope seems to be getting rid of "traditional" teachings on hell and lifestyles, in order to have more accommodation of all religions. Church of rome already sees Muslims and Jews worshiping same God, and that those sincere in those faiths will get saved in the end!