Jesus and the death Penalty?

[Zaac]

I understand what you're trying to say; but Paul didn't break the rules of the government. If the government found him guilty of murder, and sentenced him to death, would you oppose the government?

The government supports abortion on demand. The government supports same-sex marriage. The government often times supports that which is against Christ and the Christian is under no Biblical obligation to submit to THAT.

 

[Zaac]

I used to support the death penalty. I now believe for Christians to support the death penalty is contrary scripture and the specific command of God's Word to show mercy toward the worst of sinners.

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." NAS

The Apostle Paul had just explained how he was the foremost of sinners because of His persecution of the Christians. He says in Acts 26:10 he persecuted Christians even to the point of casting his vote to have them killed. Paul was a murderer of Christians.

The I Tim 1:16 passage is clear. Jesus showed mercy to the murderer Paul as an example of perfect patience to be followed by those who would believe in Christ for salvation.

Support for the death penalty, IMHO, is contrary Christ's command to follow His example of perfect patience when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

peace to youraying:

well said.:applause::applause:

And when Scripture makes it clear that we ALL have broken the same law as those we believe to be the worst, it becomes really easy to see why we should extend perfect patience and mercy.

 

[canadyjd]

I understand what you're trying to say; but Paul didn't break the rules of the government. If the government found him guilty of murder, and sentenced him to death, would you oppose the government?

My concern is the attitude that Christians have toward others, even murderers.... not with whether the government has the authority to implement the death penalty or not.

peace to youraying:

 

[Zaac]

My concern is the attitude that Christians have toward others, even murderers.... not with whether the government has the authority to implement the death penalty or not.

peace to youraying:

The very same sentiment I have expressed. we must not forget that God has left us here as His ambassadors to point people toward Him, not to drive them away with religious superiority that somehow has us thinking we are deserving of less punishment than every other sinner.

 

[canadyjd]

The very same sentiment I have expressed. we must not forget that God has left us here as His ambassadors to point people toward Him, not to drive them away with religious superiority that somehow has us thinking we are deserving of less punishment than every other sinner.

We all deserve the death penalty... and we get it at the end of this life, don't we? Thank God for His mercy!

peace to youraying:

 

[Zaac]

We all deserve the death penalty... and we get it at the end of this life, don't we? Thank God for His mercy!

peace to youraying:

AMEN!!!

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:12-13

 

[Don]

My concern is the attitude that Christians have toward others, even murderers.... not with whether the government has the authority to implement the death penalty or not.

peace to youraying:

Agreed on the attitude part.

So does the government have the authority to implement the death penalty?

 

[Salty]

Agreed on the attitude part.

So does the government have the authority to implement the death penalty?

I say yes :tear:, but it is a shame, that someone would decide to forfeith his own life.

 

[Zaac]

Agreed on the attitude part.

So does the government have the authority to implement the death penalty?

I say no. But as we've noticed, the government does a lot of unGodly things.

Scripture shows us all to be guilty of breaking the same law, thus no man can justly take another's life for breaking the law.

That authority rests with God Himself.

 

[Yeshua1]

I notice that when someone disagrees with you, that person according to you is biased. That's funny.

You believe the scriptures are inerrant, do you not? I don't use that word, but I choose to believe what Jesus said and taught. Strange that you do not.

wasn't Jesus also giving forth revealtions in the OT times, and even before the fall to adam and eve though?

wasn;t his command to slay one who wantonly killed another human being true back then, given by the same jesus as in the NT times?

You almost have a case of saying there were 2 gods, the OT one of wrath and anger, and meek and mild one jesus in the NT!

SAME God in both Ot/NT!

jesus paid the oenaly for Sins, so he took away for those saved by him the punished due to us eternally, but he did NOT remove/undo His proscribed capital punishement for murder here on earth!

 

[Yeshua1]

I say no. But as we've noticed, the government does a lot of unGodly things.

Scripture shows us all to be guilty of breaking the same law, thus no man can justly take another's life for breaking the law.

That authority rests with God Himself.

God gave that BEFORE the Law! So murder IS a sin different from othetrs, as God Himself specified what was to be done to one who killed another!

Was God wrong for proscribing that?

And God delegated His authority to the state to enforce justice, was he wrong to do that also?

 

[Zaac]

God gave that BEFORE the Law! So murder IS a sin different from othetrs, as God Himself specified what was to be done to one who killed another!

How is murder a sin different from the others? You're just making stuff up as it meets your need to be right.:laugh:

Scripture says 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. James 2:11

So it's obvious God has not distinguished murder to be different and separate from the whole law.

Was God wrong for proscribing that?

God gave the command and God directed them when to take lives. Is God speaking to us today as He did to people back then telling us to take lives?

And God delegated His authority to the state to enforce justice, was he wrong to do that also?

Where does Scripture say that God delegated His authority to the state to enforce justice? If the state were enforcing justice, the state, made up of sinful men, couldn't justly enforce anything as they are guilty of breaking the same law as everyone else.

They may punish but God has not ceded the decision of taking a life.

 

[Yeshua1]

How is murder a sin different from the others? You're just making stuff up as it meets your need to be right.:laugh:

Scripture says 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. James 2:11

So it's obvious God has not distinguished murder to be different and separate from the whole law.



God gave the command and God directed them when to take lives. Is God speaking to us today as He did to people back then telling us to take lives?



Where does Scripture say that God delegated His authority to the state to enforce justice? If the state were enforcing justice, the state, made up of sinful men, couldn't justly enforce anything as they are guilty of breaking the same law as everyone else.

They may punish but God has not ceded the decision of taking a life.

God NEVER rescinded his command to have amurderer killedoff, where did he do that in the NT? What passage?

 

[Zaac]

God NEVER rescinded his command to have amurderer killedoff, where did he do that in the NT? What passage?

No one said that He did. But the command to do so was coming directly from HIM to the Israelites or their leaders.

Is He speaking to someone TODAY telling them to do so?

Is God speaking to the Hindu in India telling them to kill a murderer?
Is He speaking to the atheist in America telling them to kill a murderer?
Is He speaking to the Muslim in Iran telling them to kill a murderer?

Does God tell Muslim men to kill their wives, daughters, etc for the sake of their honor? Muslim authorities allow it.

 

[Yeshua1]

No one said that He did. But the command to do so was coming directly from HIM to the Israelites or their leaders.

Is He speaking to someone TODAY telling them to do so?

Is God speaking to the Hindu in India telling them to kill a murderer?
Is He speaking to the atheist in America telling them to kill a murderer?
Is He speaking to the Muslim in Iran telling them to kill a murderer?

Does God tell Muslim men to kill their wives, daughters, etc for the sake of their honor? Muslim authorities allow it.

NOT talking about the death penalties that he gave to the jews to inforce under the Old Covenant, but the one for murder that he gave BEFORE there even were jewish peoples, or Isreal here, or before law coming thru Moses!

 

[Zaac]

NOT talking about the death penalties that he gave to the jews to inforce under the Old Covenant, but the one for murder that he gave BEFORE there even were jewish peoples, or Isreal here, or before law coming thru Moses!

What one? The command to not murder has always been the same even before it was given to Moses.

And it is STILL part of the Law.

 

[Yeshua1]

What one? The command to not murder has always been the same even before it was given to Moses.

And it is STILL part of the Law.

the Law asdded additional things to be dealt with by killing the guilty parties...

new Covenant NOT under those capital crimes, but murder still in place, before the Law!

 

[Zaac]

the Law asdded additional things to be dealt with by killing the guilty parties...

new Covenant NOT under those capital crimes, but murder still in place, before the Law!

This is getting silly. The Law is the Law. To not Murder has always been part of the law. When Adam and eve sinned they broke the WHOLE Law.

You break one, you break them all. If one person deserves punishment unto death based upon man's judgment, then so do we all.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

wasn't Jesus also giving forth revealtions in the OT times, and even before the fall to adam and eve though?

wasn;t his command to slay one who wantonly killed another human being true back then, given by the same jesus as in the NT times?

You almost have a case of saying there were 2 gods, the OT one of wrath and anger, and meek and mild one jesus in the NT!

SAME God in both Ot/NT!

jesus paid the oenaly for Sins, so he took away for those saved by him the punished due to us eternally, but he did NOT remove/undo His proscribed capital punishement for murder here on earth!

If you can't see that there is a great difference between the ethics of Jesus and those of parts of the OT, I don't know what else to say. Did Jesus affirm "an eye for an eye", or did He not?

 

[Yeshua1]

This is getting silly. The Law is the Law. To not Murder has always been part of the law. When Adam and eve sinned they broke the WHOLE Law.

You break one, you break them all. If one person deserves punishment unto death based upon man's judgment, then so do we all.

Actually, NO LAW was in place beforee Moses, so God treatment for murder still binding to us under the new Covenant!

law breaking as james describes refers to our spiritual state/condition, being guilty as law breakers before God, deserving judgement and hell, but God DOES differiate between sins here on earth, as murder and Sexual sins greater condemantion for punishement here than stealing a stick of gum, or writing a bad check!