Jesus and the death Penalty?

[Zaac]

Spiritual death, NOT physical death, as even in the Law, God made a difference in how punishment was applied, based upon the crime done!

For punishment unto death, only GOD can righteously make that call and that's what aligns with Scripture.

 

[Don]

I'd say He revoked the death penalty in Matthew 5:38-39. So much for those who say there is no difference in OT law and the NT ethics of Jesus.

There is NO difference between the OT law and Jesus' ethics. When taken in context, this passage does NOT rescind the death penalty.

I don't know anything about you, and have no idea what you know or have studied about the middle east. I spent some time there, and have experienced a little of the culture. Granted, most of them are muslim; but there is much that is still like it was in biblical times. There's a saying: "if someone offends you, and you wait a hundred years to get your revenge, you've acted too hastily."

The "eye for an eye" judgment was meant to be meted out by the appointed judges; but was being used as an excuse for personal vengeance/revenge. Jesus did not do away with the death penalty; He told them to stop using the law for their own personal reasons.

 

[Yeshua1]

For punishment unto death, only GOD can righteously make that call and that's what aligns with Scripture.

God alreadyu made that call for us in Genesis, and conferred that obligation unto the Government in Romans!

 

[Zaac]

There is NO difference between the OT law and Jesus' ethics. When taken in context, this passage does NOT rescind the death penalty.

I don't know anything about you, and have no idea what you know or have studied about the middle east. I spent some time there, and have experienced a little of the culture. Granted, most of them are muslim; but there is much that is still like it was in biblical times. There's a saying: "if someone offends you, and you wait a hundred years to get your revenge, you've acted too hastily."

The "eye for an eye" judgment was meant to be meted out by the appointed judges; but was being used as an excuse for personal vengeance/revenge. Jesus did not do away with the death penalty; He told them to stop using the law for their own personal reasons.

I don't believe Scripture shows it was rescinded. I believe Scripture shows that only GOD is capable of making such a decision righteously and thus we shouldn't.

Jesus showed them that we're all sinners and if you're going to stone someone, we'd have to start with ourselves.

Only the One without sin is capable of righteously judging someone unto death as we have ALL broken the law.

 

[Zaac]

God alreadyu made that call for us in Genesis, and conferred that obligation unto the Government in Romans!

I disagree. He has given them the right to punish, but not unto death as Scripture shows. Life and death rests with God ALONE.

When is the last time the government executed someone for murdering an unborn baby?

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree. He has given them the right to punish, but not unto death as Scripture shows. Life and death rests with God ALONE.

When is the last time the government executed someone for murdering an unborn baby?

We do not as a society see that as being murder, so would not apply!

I mean the abortion, NOT killing born babies!

 

[Zaac]

We do not as a society see that as being murder, so would not apply!

I mean the abortion, NOT killing born babies!

I'm not basing anything upon what we see. But upon GOD. We started off talking about Jesus and the death penalty.

It is always very easy to tell when something is wrong. It breeds confusion.

Man's government is okay with execution, but fine with letting folks murder babies.

God sees it as murder. It applies. It's all this hypocritical judgment and unrighteousness that reinforces that God has never intended for men to make a decision about whether someone lives or dies. We simply can;t righteously do so. If we could, it would be done consistently anytime someone took a life and not just when man thinks the crime is heinous.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not basing anything upon what we see. But upon GOD. We started off talking about Jesus and the death penalty.

It is always very easy to tell when something is wrong. It breeds confusion.

Man's government is okay with execution, but fine with letting folks murder babies.

God sees it as murder. It applies. It's all this hypocritical judgment and unrighteousness that reinforces that God has never intended for men to make a decision about whether someone lives or dies. We simply can;t righteously do so. If we could, it would be done consistently anytime someone took a life and not just when man thinks the crime is heinous.

When God judged Sodom for their Homosexual sins and pervertions, was that OK for Him to do?

 

[canadyjd]

Here's where I disagree with you: I don't believe Jesus changed anything in that passage. He merely pointed out to them they weren't following the law.

Jesus did not say, "you are not following the Law". As I stated before, Jesus could have demanded the man be brought and both of them stoned. That would have upheld the Law and the death penalty. He did not do that. What Jesus did was refer to the O.T. passage which explained how God intended the death penalty to be implemented, and He changed the criteria.

I don't understand how you can compare the passage in Deut. which called for "2 or 3 witnesses" to be the first to throw stones with what Jesus said "he who is without sin among you....." throw the first stone... and not see the difference.

....1 Tim 1:16, for example, ends with the statement "believe on Him to life everlasting." There is a distinction between the things of heaven and the things of this earth. We are to show mercy and grace to the extent possible; but some things that we tend to use as examples of how to act, are actually speaking of the eternal.

I find it inconceivable that Paul was telling Christians we are to follow Christ's example of perfect patience when dealing with the worst of sinners when we get to heaven, but not necessarily here on the earth. That really doesn't make sense to me.

I hate that we have to find ourselves in a position to decide what to do with someone who might be a threat to others, no matter what we do to try to dissuade or encourage that person otherwise. But there's a reason God has given the government as a sword.

And there is a reason God commanded Christians to follow the example of perfect patience that Jesus demonstrated with Paul, the "worst of sinners".

peace to youraying:

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus did not say, "you are not following the Law". As I stated before, Jesus could have demanded the man be brought and both of them stoned. That would have upheld the Law and the death penalty. He did not do that. What Jesus did was refer to the O.T. passage which explained how God intended the death penalty to be implemented, and He changed the criteria.

I don't understand how you can compare the passage in Deut. which called for "2 or 3 witnesses" to be the first to throw stones with what Jesus said "he who is without sin among you....." throw the first stone... and not see the difference. I find it inconceivable that Paul was telling Christians we are to follow Christ's example of perfect patience when dealing with the worst of sinners when we get to heaven, but not necessarily here on the earth. That really doesn't make sense to me. And there is a reason God commanded Christians to follow the example of perfect patience that Jesus demonstrated with Paul, the "worst of sinners".

peace to youraying:

If a christian commited murder, wouldn't the lord forgive him, but also have him in the electric chair?

 

[Luke2427]

No, and those values are supremely exemplified in the life and teachings of Jesus. When Jesus explicitly disavowed certain aspects of OT morality and justice, to whom do you listen? Did Jesus affirm the OT teaching of "an eye for an eye"? No, He did not.

He did not by any means whatsoever disavow "an eye for an eye" as Moses taught it.

An "eye for an eye" in Moses teaching was civil justice. The judge was to see to it that when one man harmed another his punishment should be in proportion to the harm he had done.

It was never meant to be exacted from individual to individual. Apparently some thought that it could be.

Jesus corrected this idea. The way we know that is the words that followed. Jesus speaks of personal vendettas- NOT civil justice.

A lot of what Jesus and Paul were correcting in their day was NOT the OT... it was the perversion of it that was rampant in the apostate Judaism of their day.

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you. I have now looked at your example. First we need to be honest with the text. There is no place that says Jesus revoked the death penalty.

Ok, let's be honest with the text.

Look at the passage again. Jesus did not tell them to set her free, but He told them to obey the law and stone her. He had to because that was the law. Yes He also said him who is without sin cast the first stone, but if they had been willing to obey the law they would have known there was no such provision and went ahead and stoned her.

First, let's be honest with the text,:tongue3: Jesus did not say, "obey the Law and stone her". That is not in the text. He did not "also say" "him who is without sin..." That is "only" what He said.

I believe you are misunderstanding the passage. They knew what the Law said and where willing to obey it and demanded Jesus validate their desires (John 8:5). What Jesus said was different from the requirement of 2 or 3 witnesses found in the Law for implementing the death penalty. Do you agree that saying "him who is without sin among you...." is a different command of 2 or 3 witnesses being the first to cast stones?

By using those words, He revealed their own sinfulness in the matter as He changed the requirements for implementing the death penalty. They knew they had broken the Law in this very instance by being biased and not bringing the man.

They disobeyed the law because of their own guilt and blindness.

I think that is a stretch. They knew the Law and could have brought the man and stoned them both. Instead, they accepted the change in the implementation of the Law that Jesus gave to them.

Your analysis of why Jesus did not condemn the woman is partially correct... there were no longer witnesses...., however, you fail to see the obvious... "Him who is without sin among you" was unwilling to condemn her to death.

Thank you for your reasoned arguments, even though we disagree.:1_grouphug:

peace to you raying:

 

[canadyjd]

Here is what happens when you begin with a presupposition and try to build a doctrine on it...

Actually, I began studying what scripture says about the death penalty with the presupposition of supporting the death penalty.

After careful study, I changed my mind to conform with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

[Luke2427]

Actually, I began studying what scripture says about the death penalty with the presupposition of supporting the death penalty.

After careful study, I changed my mind to conform with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace to youraying:

The problem is that you do not understand that Jesus authored the first two thirds of the Bible just as much as he authored the last third of it.

 

[canadyjd]

If a christian commited murder, wouldn't the lord forgive him, but also have him in the electric chair?

God doesn't need an electric chair to take someone's life. Nor does He need Christians to support the death penalty to take someone's life. He has commanded something different for us.

BTW, is a Christian capable of committing murder?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

The problem is that you do not understand that Jesus authored the first two thirds of the Bible just as much as he authored the last third of it.

Well, I'll try to put you at ease. I do understand Jesus is God and God has authored all of scripture and I strive to understand it all in the context that it was written.

And when I discover during my studies that what I believe concerning issues like the death penalty and many others is contrary to God's Word, I change my mind to conform to my Lord's commands.

peace to youraying:

 

[Luke2427]

Well, I'll try to put you at ease. I do understand Jesus is God and God has authored all of scripture and I strive to understand it all in the context that it was written.

And when I discover during my studies that what I believe concerning issues like the death penalty and many others is contrary to God's Word, I change my mind to conform to my Lord's commands.

peace to youraying:

Except that the death penalty has its provenance IN the Word of God.