This is a question to be debated in a workshop in the coming week. I'd like your input.
Can a person accept Christ as savior, but not as Lord?
Can a person accept Christ as savior, but not as Lord?
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Jesus as savior ... what about Jesus as Lord?
- Thread starter Crabtownboy
- Start date
Romans 8:7 is descriptive of the "natural" mind or the mind of a lost person. He is at enmity with God and that is demonstrated by the fact that he will not SUBMIT to God's Law. In essence sin is REBELLION against God. That is why it is impossible for all who are "in the flesh" to please God (Rom. 8:8).
Hence, a "saved" person is one of opposite mindset - one who is not at "enmity" with God but is SUBMISSIVE to the Law of God or one who is "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:9).
Hence, it is impossible to be saved without a spirit of submission to Christ as Lord or else enmity expressed by rebellion has not changed and thus a person is still "in the flesh" and thus in a state that is impossible to "please God" as one cannot come to God without acknowledging Him as God and the very nature of saving faith is a mind submissive to God (Heb. 11:6).
Furthermore, Gospel repentance is necessary to the essence of salvation as one must have a change of mind about love for darkness and hatred of light (enmity) or going in a direction that is in rebellion against God (sin). No one can be saved by going away from Christ but must be turned from that direction and come to Christ (repentance) or else they are still rejecting Christ.
However, the "salvation" verus "Lordship" debate has taken this to another level. Instead of the debate over the nature of gospel conversion which requires repentance or turning from enmity to submission; turning from rebellion to submission, turning from hatred of light to love of light, turning from rejection of Christ to submission to Christ, this debate has moved beyond the essence of gospel conversion to a debate over the role of works in post-conversion experience.
The "free grace" point of view is that "repentance" equals "works" whereas the Lordship point of view is that "works" are inclusive of true gospel conversion = perseverance.
Both are wrong! Gospel conversion is impossible apart from turning from one direction (rejection, rebellion, hatred of God) to another direction or a change of mind in regard to rejection, rebellion, hatred, to faith (submission, acceptance, coming to Christ).
Gospel conversion is the cause of obedience by good works (Eph. 2:8-10) but it is not inclusive of obedience by good works (Rom. 3:27-28; 4:5-6). The Lordship doctrine of perseverance by good works is a repudiation of Justification by faith without works.
The crucial point where Lordship salvation steps over the line is the distinction between cause versus effect as it demands that effects are inseparably inclusive in the cause thus making our works necessary grounds of true gospel conversion.
The crucial point where "free grace" salvation steps over the line is their definition of repentance as they basically define gospel repentance as pennance or works. Gospel repentances is inseparable from faith as one must first have a CHANGE OF MIND in regard to the direction they are going -away from Christ to coming to Christ in faith. They must have a CHANGE OF MIND about enmity toward God, rebellion against God to submission to God. They must have a CHANGE OF MIND about hatred of light to love of light.
Doesn't God give His answer to this by stating that by Grace alone we have been already saved, but now he wants us to walk in those predetermined good works laid before us in order to glorify Him, and to grow in maturity regarding walk with christ?
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Most people do accept Him as Savior, but not Lord.
Savior because most think salvation is a ticket to heaven only.
Lord means a current ongoing relationship.
Heaven is a destination, but not the reason Jesus came.
Jesus came to reconcile us with the Father, a current "now"relationship.
By thinking that Jesus is a ticket to heaven only, Christians leave there everyday life up for grabs. It will usually be the way of the world "try to live a good life". Do a good deed and mow someones yard, attend church to make a show to God you are trying lol.
Jesus wants a relationship so He will be Lord, and you will do the things He did.
Savior because most think salvation is a ticket to heaven only.
Lord means a current ongoing relationship.
Heaven is a destination, but not the reason Jesus came.
Jesus came to reconcile us with the Father, a current "now"relationship.
By thinking that Jesus is a ticket to heaven only, Christians leave there everyday life up for grabs. It will usually be the way of the world "try to live a good life". Do a good deed and mow someones yard, attend church to make a show to God you are trying lol.
Jesus wants a relationship so He will be Lord, and you will do the things He did.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
That is true and there is a level of growth.
The "ticket to heaven" people do nothing or little for the kingdom.
Those in a deeper relationship are called true believers, as in Mark 16: They will cast out devils, heal the sick etc.
If it is all or none then most are none, no works like Jesus did.
I like to think of those deceived as still growing and being born again.
Some of these are listed in Matthew 7:22 and Matthew 7:23 is the Lord's response to such.
1 Corinthians 12:29-30 flatly denies that this is true of all believers.
First, the new birth is NEVER spoken of as a process but and instanteous creative act by God.
Second, those who teach that signs miracles and wonders are the evidence of true disciples are the ones deceived as Paul flatly denies that such things characterize all true believers - 1 Cor. 12:29-30.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Jesus said "whosoever". That means us. Otherwise you have no love, and no fruit.
Seek the Kingdom.
This is what the Kingdom is, healing, casting out devils.
Love motivates these things. Otherwise, your preaching is without the Holy Ghost, and is empty of the power that rose Christ from the dead.
Otherwise, you are "ever learning but never able to come to truth".
We understand your "talking points" but your talking points are contrary to the express and explicit words of Paul who denies that such gifts are given to all Christians.
I have already showed that your interpretation of Mark 16 is contradictory to both the immediate and overall context of scripture. He is addressing the apostles in that context. Their disciples would do these things AFTER Pentecost because they were the instrumental means to convey such sign gifts to their followers. None but apostles exercised such gifts between Acts 2 and Acts 6. From that point forward it was due to the laying on of hands by the apostles. Acts 8 makes it clear that Philip could not impart spiritual gifts even though he could exercise such gifts but impartation to the Samaritans occurred exactly the same way Philip received it = through the laying on of apostolic hands.
Romans 12 does not list ANY such sign gifts and yet Romans 1:11 demands that gifts they did not have would come through the apostle Paul.
Your position is simply wrong.
How many dead have you raised? Post-Pentecost disciples raised the dead. How many people have you MADE WHOLE by laying on of your hands who were BLIND from birth, paralyzed from birth, etc.?
I have yet to find any DOCUMENTED evidence of any Pentecostal healer of such cases. I have read Benny Hinn's so called documented evidence and there are huge credibility holes in his records.
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
You're study is all you have. You'd be better off to put your beliefs to work and get some testimonies in your life.
I have healed the deaf, assisted in prayer with others. Cast devils out, healed arms of arthritis, and preached the gospel.
You wont believe these things because your experience is opposite.
My experience reflects scripture.
Real fruit.
Tell me your testimonies of what you have done for the Kingdom, how Christ has worked through you?
I have healed the deaf, assisted in prayer with others. Cast devils out, healed arms of arthritis, and preached the gospel.
You wont believe these things because your experience is opposite.
My experience reflects scripture.
Real fruit.
Tell me your testimonies of what you have done for the Kingdom, how Christ has worked through you?
Your so-called "healings" are no different in character than those conducted by Hindu holy men and all other cultic religions on planet earth.
I have seen God do the greatest miracles with my own eyes - transform sinners into saints by new birth even through the use of the preachng by an unworthy instrument as my self.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Tell me your testimonies of what you have done for the Kingdom, how Christ has worked through you?
I don't get into a boasting contest with anyone concerning the Lord's work. Futhermore, there are differences in gifts and measure in such gifts. In regard to my own spiritual gifts, if I chose to get into a bragging contest, I could produce many testimonies, not from my mouth but from the mouths of many witnesses outside my family, outside my own church. However, such boasting is not a fruit of the Spirit but rather a disgrace.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
A testimony is always good to share the Lords work, "they overcame by their testimonies".
You have none. But thats ok you can start.
You have none. But thats ok you can start.
Again you jerk scriptures out of context. The context refers to their salvation testimony not testimonies about what they had done. I do have a gospel testimony of the saving power of Christ and am always glad to share that because it is boast of what Christ did, not what I have done.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
What has Jesus done through you sir?
The very tenor of your question demonstrates the Holy Spirit is not leading you in this discussion. You are displaying the very attitude that characterized those false apostles at Corinth in comparing among themselves:
2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
Moreover, your question demands you are assuming there is equal ground of comparison when the Scriptures clearly deny that (1 Cor. 12:4-6; 29-30) and that all saints are gifted in the same manner and measure. You are evidencing very little experiential knowlege of true spiritual gifts and how they operate in different individuals.
Furthemore, you overlook that some spiritual gifts are not showing or evident:
1 Cor. 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
YOu are demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge of Biblical gifts and their operations.
However, again, if boasting were my cup of tea, I don't need to defend myself as through the 38 years of ministry I have many defenders in regard to my spiritual gifts.
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
What awesome things can you share with me that Jesus has done through your life? Does your light shine on a hill?
Jesus defines that light as "good works" before men not miracles signs and wonders. Again you pervert the scriptures which is another self-evident proof that the Holy Spirit is not leading you in this discussion.
You are exhibiting the very attitude among the Corinthians in regard to spiritual gifts that Paul wrote to rebuke them rather than commend them.
God has used the spiritual gifts that he has bestowed upon me by his grace mightily for the past 40 years. However, you are clearly ignorant of the diversity and measure of spiritual gifts as you obviously seek to restrict them to sign gifts which the Bible explicitly denies are given to all believers.