Another classic winmanism for the ages. He thinks that the creature deserves grace because of the creature's merit.
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Jesus Christ: Did He Ever Save Anyone, Really ?
- Thread starter pinoybaptist
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Another classic winmanism for the ages. He thinks that the creature deserves grace because of the creature's merit.
I don't even get your point here. I've contradicted myself nowhere. ALL these below are the Lord's people BY TYPE, but with most of them He was not happy:
1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10
No. Moses entered not in because of unbelief:
And Jehovah said unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed not in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them. Nu 20:12
???????????????????
Wow. 1%. That's all He accomplished, according to olegig. You have one dismal outlook on the work of our Saviour. It blows my mind.
What "lone Scripture"? The Bible speaks repeatedly of God's justice. It speaks continously of the fact that all His ways are right,perect and good. Do you disagree?
Well, yeah, you are.
When you use the word "applied", just what do you mean? I don't for instance, believe that the elect are saved in eternity. In the realm of time the elect are saved and redemption is applied to them.
All hearts are evil. God saw nothing but evil in all hearts.
Their choice was in opposition to things good -- of God. It was on evil, all the time.
It is a word after all, but rather archaic. But the way you employed it was mistaken. You meant it in the sense of a whim. You wrongly characterize Calvinists in believing God is capricious. You like to say that Calvinists believe God acts in a fickle manner. And of course I repudiate that characterization with all of my being.
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Between Winman's and olegig's mindblowing statements..........ah, never mind. All I can do is just shake my head. They would repent/recant or be excluded from the Baptist Church that I know. Period.
Well, I believe there are many scriptures that show God's grace is conditional, not upon our goodness or any works that we do, but our faith and attitude toward God.
Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
The scriptures say without faith it is impossible to please God. Those who do not believe God call him a liar.
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Believing God is not merit, a career criminal could love his mother and have faith in her, that does not make him a good person. Loving and believing God is not merit on our part, but our attitude and faith toward God please him. Not believeing God is calling him a liar and therefore cannot please him. An attitude is not a work.
How do you arrive at the above scripturally? That the Book of Life was written BEFORE, not AFTER the foundation of the world.
And what are the proof texts that the Book is the mind of God?
My point is that some would refer to them as being the elect; however we later see they did not receive what was promised.
Num 20:
8Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
9And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
10And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
11And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
12And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
From the passage, in context, we see God told them to "speak" to the rock; but Moses in a bit of anger smote the rock.
This one instruction is what God said Moses did not believe.
IMO one should not construe it to mean Moses did not believe in God as is the case of the children in Heb 4:6.
If you would but keep reading, you would see where I qualified the statement by saying I am not building a theology around but one passage of a somewhat vague scripture.
The Bible places the ratio at around 1 percent as being saved; however that passage is one of those vague passages that one can find no support for and I don't build a theology around one vague passage.
So far as my "dismal outlook on the work of our Saviour" I do believe He paid the price for ALL sin and made salvation available to ALL men just as the scriptures teach in contrast to only dying for a few and covering a few sins.
You do the math:
Daniel 7:10 (King James Version)
10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Eph 1:4
I disagree with your interpretation of His ways.
You feel God decided in eternity past who would be saved on the basis of an "overpowering, crushing" decree.
Crushing because it also calls for God, at the same time, decreeing who would be lost.
I belief God made His decision of who would be called in real time by looking on the hearts of men and discerning which men would be receptive to the gospel message if it is presented to them.
1 Peter 1:2 (King James Version)
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
If folks are elect according to the foreknowledge, how could God have known their hearts before they were even created before the foundation of the world?
I agree for it seems you are saying just what I said.
Even though the trees, etc did not sin, the sin of one man affected the whole creation.
1 Corinthians 5:6 (King James Version)
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Even the one sin was enough to ruin all creation. And from that one bit of leaven, the whole lump is tainted.
Therefore to regain the perfect condition of the whole, all must be removed demanding that Christ die for ALL sins.
It could not be that Christ died for only the sins of some.
Tell me, was this an overly friendly remark?
I can also say: "IF you know your Bible, you will see in some instances where God had in reserve only a few true believers."
Romans 11:4 (King James Version)
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
If the redeemed are a vast number too numberous to count, why was there only 7,000 that had not bowed the knee to Baal?
Hmm, if He died for all -- all will be in glory.That includes those whom he foreordained to eternal condemnation. That makes no biblical or rational sense. If He died for none there is no mercy evident. Yes sir, He died for some -- those elect before the foundation of the world.
That's because the totality of Scripture says that in the aggregate a vast number too large to count will be in Heaven.
olegig said:
okay, let me correct that.
The Book of Life was written from the foundation of the world.
olegig said:
I said, "many agree....." which is in reference to commentators. Further, if you recall, Christ said to those who came to Him with the wonderful works they did in His Name, that He never knew them. They knew Him, but He did not know them, which agrees with the conclusion by many commentators that Jesus Christ being an eternal God, and foreknowing His people, therefore the Book of Life is His mind or His decree of election of His people.
olegig said:
Now, you're getting me confused.
In just one post you stated that Christ could not have just died for only the sins of some.
and then from the other side of your mouth, the same post, you question why there were only 7000 men for God (Christ).
So, which is it ?
Are you doubtful that Christ died for just a few, or are you doubtful that Christ died for many.
But here are a few Scriptures about the number of the redeemed elect:
God speaking to Abraham, who is a picture of Christ, in the Old Testament:
Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said , Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies ;
Revelation 7:9-10
After this I beheld , and, lo , a great multitude, which no man could number , of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying , Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Calvinism and the Doctrine of Grace, at least, put the eternal fate of many fallen sinners under the grace and mercy of God, for Him to dispose of them as He pleases, and in mercy He chose to redeem multitudes of undeserving sinners with His own Son's blood, and we don't know who they are and where they are.
The opposing doctrine, however, would speak of the grace of God along with the ability to choose Him depending on how they respond to the gospel and to the ability of preachers to reach them (when they could not even be with their families some of the time).
Which then, is elitist ?
The one which includes innumerable souls because of God's kindness and mercy ?
Or the one which excludes innumerable souls because of the limitation of men to actually get to preach the gospel to each and every individual of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.
Besides all these, consider the fact that the cross is behind us, the blood has flowed, and the Redeemer is already seated in glory until He comes again for His own.
winman said:
This statement has truth in it.
However, the conditionality is not with respect to the eternal state of the soul, but of the timely blessing of the child of God.
Note that the Scripture you quoted was directed to the children of national Israel, who is a picture of the true Israel spoken of by Paul.
All Scripture ever written, revealed, and spoken, was for the benefit and instruction of God's people here on earth because they and only they were redeemed for eternal glory.
The rest are already under condemnation from the beginning.
RE:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Does this passage need to be reconciled with:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Does this passage need to be reconciled with:
Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
I think so and kyredneck has given a plausible explanation.
Also:
1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
HankD
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
HankD
In context olegig said:
I agree for it seems you are saying just what I said.
Even though the trees, etc did not sin, the sin of one man affected the whole creation.
1 Corinthians 5:6 (King James Version)
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Even the one sin was enough to ruin all creation. And from that one bit of leaven, the whole lump is tainted.
Therefore to regain the perfect condition of the whole, all must be removed demanding that Christ die for ALL sins.
It could not be that Christ died for only the sins of some.
Rippon would you care to address the whole context and the issue of redeeming the whole creation or do you just prefer to reach into a bag of sayings and rip upon selected statements.
A text without context is only a pretense.
I suppose we could pass posts back and forth saying: "Yes he did....",,,,"No he didn't....",,,,,"Yes he did....." etc...
And I will admit I will most likely tire of that before you do because from what I have seen you have a lot of practice.
Since one can find any number of commentators to suit either side of most positions, perhaps we should only consider scripture in this type of forum?
In the context of the passage (the Kingdom of Heaven) these so called "wonderful works" were actually the works of a corrupt tree bring forth evil works (vs 18).
They will be the works of the antichrist in his attempt to imitate the true Christ.
I might agree the Book of Life is in the mind of God; but I can't limit God by saying it is His mind.
It appears your chosen commentators also are trying to show that in eternity past, before the foundation of the world, before creation God decreed who would be saved and therefore who would be lost.
Sorry, sometimes I use rhetorical questions, giving the unknown reader something to ponder.
And hopefully, the unknown reader does pay attention to the context of the question or statement.
We have shown Christ's finished work on the cross paid the price for all sin thus redeeming all creation which includes all mankind.
We have also shown at times there are only a remnant of believers as exampled by the 7,000; therefore the system of Calvinism fails to properly address who will be saved.
No doubt now some will ask:
Well, if Christ paid for all sin, then why are not all saved?
To which I would answer:
Christ's finished work re-gained Him title to all creation of which He will take back in the future and so far as mankind is concerned I believe that whosoever believes on Him will have eternal life in that future.
IMO Abraham is a picture of the Father, and Issac is a picture of the Son.
I have no doubt a vast number of folks will be saved; however I do not find it a failure if Christ died for all sins and not all are saved.
One just has to accept the reality that some men will never accept the totally free offer of salvation.
Romans 3:3 (King James Version)
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Yes, but also in the manner of Calvinism the fate of the lost is left to an eternal decree of God made before creation.
IMO God has devised a system whereby mankind is totally responsible for his own fate. (I did not say responsible for his own salvation.)
God makes His offer of salvation to all men that would receive it even if those men know nothing of it.
And God does this by knowing the hearts of man.
No, the opposing doctrine makes God's grace dependant upon the hearts of men before men even know their own hearts.
Their every thought is evil; but God knows who will receive His message and who will not.
I leave that up to the unknown reader.
Excellent post and point Hank; and thanks for the compliment. It means alot to me coming from you.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Truth
I pray every day for this generation, but some times we have to talk and get this generation to the knowledge of truth, that we may reach the next generation to it.
I pray every day for this generation, but some times we have to talk and get this generation to the knowledge of truth, that we may reach the next generation to it.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Grant
Also that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, but I am afraid as long as they lean on thier own undersanding and not trust in the Lord, He will not.
Also that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, but I am afraid as long as they lean on thier own undersanding and not trust in the Lord, He will not.
I've no doubt 'Israel my chosen' is representative by type of God's elect. These are the children of Israel we're talking about. They did not enter into His rest because of their unbelief.
22 because all those men that have seen my glory, and my signs, which I wrought in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have tempted me these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Nu 14
God had been very slow to anger and merciful to that generation.
Is it somehow detrimental to your theology to accept the plain record of scripture that Moses did in fact disobey and in fact did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief on his part? I suggest to you that the record stands just as the Holy Spirit intended it.
11 And Jehovah said unto Moses, How long will this people despise me? and how long will they not believe in me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?
23 surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that despised me see it:
30 surely ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware that I would make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. Nu 14
24 Yea, they despised the pleasant land, They believed not his word, Ps 106
32 Yet in this thing ye did not believe Jehovah your God, Dt 1
23 And when Jehovah sent you from Kadesh-barnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of Jehovah your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice. Dt 9
12 And Jehovah said unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed not in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them. Nu 20
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:
19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief [AND THAT INCLUDES MOSES AND AARON]. Heb 3
Have you ever had an evil heart of unbelief olegig? I have, and the outcome is never good.
Are you implying 10,000 x 10,000 is ALL the redeemed? Please clarify.
Pinoy has provided all the 'the math' needed very nicely in post #149.
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If you wish to believe Moses did not believe in God, I suppose that is your choice and I also suppose that is required of your theology.
I have heard many reasons given for Moses not entering into the promised land, and this is certainly yet another.
Your position that Moses did not believe in God makes one wonder what you do with all the references to Moses in the NT.
Do you really feel an unbeliever appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration? (Matt 17:3)
IMO we should interpret passages such as Num 20:12 in light of the whole body of scripture, not in such a way that it matches our personal theology.
No, I am implying that one group is 1% of the other.
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That is such a typical lame 'olegig distortion' of the type I'm trying to present. Even Paul understood that what happened to Moses, and many others, could well happen to him:
I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. 1 Cor 9:26,27
Yes. And it most certainly is a scriptural reason. The problem here is with you olegig. The account given by the Holy Spirit doesn't fit your theology.
Again, another typical 'olegig distortion'. I'll answer your question with the question I asked you in my previous post, which you didn't answer:
......and I'm not talking about before you were saved, i.e. ' Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief'.
I have to the former; I haven't to the latter.
And, what's your point? Is there some great mystery there that we're all missing out on? If so, please enlighten us.
Kyredneck, are you saying Moses was lost? That is absurd. Who appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration?
Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Moses was not lost, and many believe he and Elijah will be the two witnesses in the book of Revelations.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
As far as my earlier statements on grace, I do not believe grace is unconditional. Take Noah for instance, the scriptures say Noah found grace in God's eyes. Was this for no reason? Was it unconditional? I don't think so. In Hebrews it says Noah had great faith in God and feared him when the rest of mankind was exceedingly corrupt. And because of his faith he lived a very good and pure life. It was because of his faith that he found favor or grace with God. I believe the scriptures always show grace follows faith.
Look up the word grace in a concordance and you will see the phrase "found grace in the eyes" or "found grace in the sight". In other words, it is something God sees in a man that causes him to look favorably upon a man, it is not unconditional. And I believe this condition is faith. Faith is not a work, faith is looking and trusting in God. The scriptures say it is impossible to please God without faith, therefore it is easily concluded that having faith in God pleases him. I think faith is the basis or condition for grace.
Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Moses was not lost, and many believe he and Elijah will be the two witnesses in the book of Revelations.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
As far as my earlier statements on grace, I do not believe grace is unconditional. Take Noah for instance, the scriptures say Noah found grace in God's eyes. Was this for no reason? Was it unconditional? I don't think so. In Hebrews it says Noah had great faith in God and feared him when the rest of mankind was exceedingly corrupt. And because of his faith he lived a very good and pure life. It was because of his faith that he found favor or grace with God. I believe the scriptures always show grace follows faith.
Look up the word grace in a concordance and you will see the phrase "found grace in the eyes" or "found grace in the sight". In other words, it is something God sees in a man that causes him to look favorably upon a man, it is not unconditional. And I believe this condition is faith. Faith is not a work, faith is looking and trusting in God. The scriptures say it is impossible to please God without faith, therefore it is easily concluded that having faith in God pleases him. I think faith is the basis or condition for grace.
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