Jesus Christ - God Incarnate - Lamb of God ... ALWAYS the plan, or just a patch after the fall?

[atpollard]

He did not ordain the Fall AND it was not His plan A or B.
He is sovereign and could do what He wanted (Ox3). What He sovereignly wanted was for human’s to choose Him and His ways.
Plan A: Make humans who could willingly love and chose Him and His ways. Foreknowing what would happen, In Christ, before the foundation of the world, He already made Plan A: salvation in Christ through willing trust in Him. He still retains the ability and authority to act as He sees fit at any time, so there is no loss of the Omni’s.
***Again my question to you, do you believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for:
1. Adam and Eve to have free will
2. Sin and eat the apple
These are simple questions, I am hoping for direct answers.

It is about JESUS. The core issue is whether Jesus was ALWAYS the centerpiece of God's creation plan (in which case, every action points towards Jesus) or God intended Adam and Eve to NOT SIN and Jesus is a "fix" for a broken creation.

By focusing on Adam and Eve and ignoring Jesus the Christ, we are nibbling around the crust of the sandwich and refusing to take a bite out of the MEAT that IS the sandwich.

However, you wanted a "direct answer" so here goes:

Q1: Do I believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for Adam and Eve to have free will?
Direct Response: Yes, God created Adam and Eve with Free will; therefore it was part of God's plan.

Going Deeper:
What is "free will"? It is merely the ability to choose from among possible options. It is not "perfect". It is not "unbiased". It is not "immune to outside influences". It is not free from "human nature". "For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world." - [1 John 2:16 NLT] The "free will" of Adam and Eve were subject to influence by all of these ..."The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too." - [Genesis 3:6 NLT]

Q2: Do I believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for Sin and eat the apple?
Direct Response: Yes.

Going Deeper:
Do YOU believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world to redeem for himself a people FROM sin through the incarnation, death and resurrection of God the Son (second person of the trinity)? If that was always God's (Father-Son-Spirit) plan, goal and heart's desire, then the FALL was always part of the MEANS to God's ends. "You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." - [Genesis 50:20 NLT] We see events in one way, but God controls the narrative of the story towards His goals [which are always infinitely GOOD].

 

[Ben1445]

It is about JESUS. The core issue is whether Jesus was ALWAYS the centerpiece of God's creation plan (in which case, every action points towards Jesus) or God intended Adam and Eve to NOT SIN and Jesus is a "fix" for a broken creation.

By focusing on Adam and Eve and ignoring Jesus the Christ, we are nibbling around the crust of the sandwich and refusing to take a bite out of the MEAT that IS the sandwich.

My understanding is that the Jewish teachers teach it this way.
God knew that man would fall and would not have created the world if the Messiah had not been willing to redeem the world.

In other words, there is a step back further than you have gone that allows a completely different view.
God’s knowledge of something doesn’t make it His will. As God chastens Satan, it is not a Just God who will hold Satan accountable for what Satan has been willed to do by God.
Deviation from God was never the plan. That would make God deviant from Himself. And a house, even God’s, divided against itself cannot stand. But there is no iniquity in God. God could not judge any if He had willed the sin to happen. He would not be able to “cast the first stone” in judgment. And I assure you that there is a time when He will “cast the first stone.”

However, you wanted a "direct answer" so here goes:

Q1: Do I believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for Adam and Eve to have free will?
Direct Response: Yes, God created Adam and Eve with Free will; therefore it was part of God's plan.

Going Deeper:
What is "free will"? It is merely the ability to choose from among possible options. It is not "perfect". It is not "unbiased". It is not "immune to outside influences". It is not free from "human nature". "For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world." - [1 John 2:16 NLT] The "free will" of Adam and Eve were subject to influence by all of these ..."The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too." - [Genesis 3:6 NLT]

There are videos upon videos of people who use their free will to choose what is not an option despite the call of law enforcement officers to make right choices. The often inebriated, but many times just belligerent people are corrected, against their free will, into what are their options whether or not they chose their outcome or not. The reality of it is that they have actually chosen their own outcome. They are judged by their own actions under the same law of the land as their peers are accountable to.
It is true that you can not ignore God and create a third option. You must either accept or reject God.

Q2: Do I believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for Sin and eat the apple?
Direct Response: Yes.

For clarity, it was not the apple. The apple is still food that we may freely eat.
And I disagree.
God does not need to plan that sin happen for it to happen. His foreknowledge can make corrections for it without planning it.
To say that God’s plan was for Adam and Eve to sin is to attribute sin to God.

Going Deeper:
Do YOU believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world to redeem for himself a people FROM sin through the incarnation, death and resurrection of God the Son (second person of the trinity)? If that was always God's (Father-Son-Spirit) plan, goal and heart's desire, then the FALL was always part of the MEANS to God's ends. "You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." - [Genesis 50:20 NLT] We see events in one way, but God controls the narrative of the story towards His goals [which are always infinitely GOOD].

The the Bible is clear that God knew that this would happen before the world was made. Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

The real question is has God excluded anyone from salvation or have that excluded themselves?
That is the question that truly affects our behavior.
The other questions are speculative and have no real effect on our behavior. But if God has predetermined who will be saved (which thought is unscriptural) then it doesn’t matter what I do as God’s will, will be done.

 

[atpollard]

The real question is has God excluded anyone from salvation or have that excluded themselves?

Then my answer to the "real question" is found in the famous John 3 ...

John 3:19-20 [NASB] "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed."

God is not the one pushing anyone away. We are a "chip off the old block" ... just like Adam and Eve ...

Genesis 3:7-8 [NASB] Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves waist coverings. Now they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

[We would rather try to fix it ourselves than turn to God, and when our efforts fail, we hide from God.]

The solution is "But God ..." [Ephesians 2:4] (does something about it.)

 

[Ben1445]

Then my answer to the "real question" is found in the famous John 3 ...

John 3:19-20 [NASB] "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed."

God is not the one pushing anyone away. We are a "chip off the old block" ... just like Adam and Eve ...

Genesis 3:7-8 [NASB] Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves waist coverings. Now they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

[We would rather try to fix it ourselves than turn to God, and when our efforts fail, we hide from God.]

The solution is "But God ..." [Ephesians 2:4] (does something about it.)

God was never not the solution.
The Calvinist premise boils down to salvation twice.
A work of God for only some to help out the first work that was ineffective.
It is ridiculous on its face.

 

[atpollard]

God was never not the solution.

At least we agree on the "ESSENTIALS".

The Calvinist premise boils down to salvation twice.
A work of God for only some to help out the first work that was ineffective.
It is ridiculous on its face.

Respectfully, I find a "god" not in control of his creation or salvation to be the thing that is "ridiculous".
You have too much FAITH in men and too little FAITH in God.

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - [Romans 9:15-16]