Jesus Christ - God Incarnate - Lamb of God ... ALWAYS the plan, or just a patch after the fall?

[Ascetic X]

It is about JESUS. The core issue is whether Jesus was ALWAYS the centerpiece of God's creation plan (in which case, every action points towards Jesus) or God intended Adam and Eve to NOT SIN and Jesus is a "fix" for a broken creation.


Q2: Do I believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world for Sin and eat the apple?
Direct Response: Yes.

Going Deeper:
Do YOU believe that it was God‘s predetermined plan before the foundation of the world to redeem for himself a people FROM sin through the incarnation, death and resurrection of God the Son (second person of the trinity)? If that was always God's (Father-Son-Spirit) plan, goal and heart's desire, then the FALL was always part of the MEANS to God's ends.

"You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." - [Genesis 50:20 NLT] We see events in one way, but God controls the narrative of the story towards His goals [which are always infinitely GOOD].

Habakkuk 1:13

Your eyes are too pure to look on evil, and you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.


The bottom line is that sin is NEVER what God wills. God allowed Adam to be tempted and fall, but to say God wanted Adam to fall is wrong. It was the devil who wanted Adam to fall.

God knew Adam would disobey Him, but that does not mean God wanted Adam to sin. God does not give a command, hoping it will be disobeyed. What God foreknows, and allows, is not what God wills.

A God who gives commandments, and wants humanity to disobey them, is not what the Bible teaches.

A human father commands his son to not use drugs. The son disobeys, uses drugs, then loses his job and suffers poverty. The son repents, stops using drugs, tells his dad that his command was good. The son gets money from his dad, so the son can get educated to become a counselor who helps addicts get off drugs. The son enjoys prosperity and a good life. His father is happy with how things turned out.

The father is not glad his son disobeyed. The father did not want his son to disobey and use drugs.

Even though the son’s disobedience and drug use eventually got turned around, and ultimately resulted in a good thing, the father would prefer that the son’s counselor job could have happened without his son disobeying him and using drugs.

Our holy God never wills that anyone commits sin. Even though God has a plan to resolve the issue of humanity’s sin problem, to say God wanted Adam to sin is a declaration that contracts all the scripture that says God hates sin. God cannot hate sin and also will sin to happen.

 

[Aaron]

No I agree that Christ was always the plan, but that doesnt mean it was Gods plan for Adam to sin.

Pretend that God has no foreknowledge.

Don't get all holy and virtuous on me. You can pretend that for argument's sake.

The Son must be a Redeemer, because He is the Son, not because of some feeling that something bad might happen. Now, something must be arranged so that the Son can accomplish Redemption. There must be someone to Redeem. Someone on whose behalf gifts and sacrifices are offered.

So the world was made, and someone was made through whom sin and death might enter that world, and the Son could fulfill His destiny.

That is what I mean when I say Christ was always the plan.

You end up impugning Gods glory and His love because you chose to infer rather than accept what the scripture says.

Oh no. What I'm saying is exactly what Paul preached to the Hebrews.

And its comical to think that my view would glorify man, when actually it elevates the character of God. The truth is that the Calvinist view elevates “Elect” men and make the gospel only about man and what type of man God chose to make you. There is nothing more man-centered than the view you just laid out.

When you make yourself the object of God's love, instead of Christ; when you think God loves you for your own sake instead of the for sake of Christ, you are making it all about you.

I make it all about Christ. No one is more humble before God than he who understands He had nothing to do with his own salvation, and given the freedom to chose, would choose darkness rather than light because he loves the darkness more.

How can it not be man-centered to think that when given the freedom to choose, one had more love for the light than those chose darkness?

 

[Psalty]

The sickness (CDS) that afflicts folks like @Psalty is dreadful.

You can call names, but you wont acknowledge the truth of your system because you are simply afraid to verbalize it.

No, Ill continue defending God as all-loving and you can keep rejecting it all you want against scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

To say that the ordination of Christ as High Priest was due to the foreknowledge of sin, instead of by virtue of His Identity, is to make man the center of His will and purpose, and His Son subservient.

Scripture is clear that all things were created for Christ Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This included a redemption purpose Col 1:14

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Jesus was setup/anointed High Priest from the beginning Prov 8:22-23

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

This word set up nāsaḵ:

1. 1. (Niphal) to be anointed
   2. (Piel) to pour out (as a libation)
   3. (Hiphil) to pour out libations
   4. (Hophal) to be poured out
2. to set, install

He was innstalled into His Office and anointed of Mediator, Prophet, Priest and King,

And His delight was with the elect portion of man who was going to inhabit the earth Prov 8 31

Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

 

[kyredneck]

It was the devil who wanted Adam to fall.

Yes. The age-old sin of jealousy/covetousness on the part of Satan.

Few seem to consider that Satan also 'fell' in the garden.

 

[Psalty]

Pretend that God has no foreknowledge.

Don't get all holy and virtuous on me. You can pretend that for argument's sake.

The Son must be a Redeemer, because He is the Son, not because of some feeling that something bad might happen. Now, something must be arranged so that the Son can accomplish Redemption. There must be someone to Redeem. Someone on whose behalf gifts and sacrifices are offered.

He is only a redeemer once the choice is made to create humans. Before that He has love and compassion as traits from within the Trinity. Because he is triune, Love is a primary trait.

So the world was made, and someone was made through whom sin death might enter that world, and the Son could fulfill His destiny.

That is what I mean when I say Christ was always the plan.

Correct, might.

Oh no. What I'm saying is exactly what Paul preached to the Hebrews.

Sorry, youd have to expand on this for me to follow. James and Paul and John describe God as dwelling in unapproachable light with no sin or darkness at all.

When you make yourself the object of God's love, instead of Christ; when you think God loves you for your own sake instead of the for sake of Christ, you are making it all about you.

So you believe God only loves us because He loves Christ? You dont think He created us because He loves us? How do you then jump to the place that if God loves us, somehow Christ is still not primary in purpose and plan? You are making huge jumps.

I make it all about Christ. No one is more humble before God than he who understands He had nothing to do with his own salvation, and given the freedom to chose, would choose darkness rather than light because he loves the darkness more.

Right, and because Calvinists believe its all God and not a God who created humans with a will, they come to the place where you are, He is the logical and necessary direct cause of Sin.

How can it not be man-centered to think that when given the freedom to choose, one had more love for the light than those chose darkness?

What do you mean “chose”? You believe God decreed them unable to believe. You also believe that God effectually cause people to ”chose“ light? You dont get to use that language for the God you are defining.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You are not addressing the underlying issue which was brought up.

God created humans. Calvinists believe he ordained that they fall. Now He has fallen children.

You believe that he is loving because he saves some. That is loving. But on your view he is now unloving of those he does not save. You have diminished his Love. You have a God who is pleased to hate and condemn many of his children.

The problem with calvinism is that it is so man centered that they cant put themselves in the shoes of the reprobate.

The Bible tells us that God makes His sun rise on the evil as well as on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. He is kind to the unthankful and evil. He has compassion on all that He has made. If you believe that is love, then God does indeed love everybody.
But the word 'love' is not used in any of those texts. Rather, it is used here: '.... Having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end [or 'to the uttermost']' (John 13:1).
The problem with Arminianism (if that is the theory you subscribe to) is that it teaches that God loves everybody a bit, but nobody enough to save him. It is all left up to us. I hope you never pray for anyone to be saved. According to you, God will not answer that prayer. He is not in the actual salvation business. He offers salvation, but then backs off and leaves it up to us. If He really did that, no one would ever be saved for the reasons I gave in post #77.

 

[Ascetic X]

Pretend that God has no foreknowledge.

Don't get all holy and virtuous on me. You can pretend that for argument's sake.

The Son must be a Redeemer, because He is the Son, not because of some feeling that something bad might happen. Now, something must be arranged so that the Son can accomplish Redemption. There must be someone to Redeem. Someone on whose behalf gifts and sacrifices are offered.

So the world was made, and someone was made through whom sin and death might enter that world, and the Son could fulfill His destiny.

That is what I mean when I say Christ was always the plan.

“Don’t get all holy and virtuous on me.” ???

“someone was made through whom sin and death might enter that world” ???

So in your strange theology, Adam was created, not to be an image of God, not to enjoy God’s presence and blessings, not to work in the garden, not to be a companion to Eve, not to be fruitful with her and replenish the earth with more humans — but solely to sin and introduce death into the world?

Once again, this doctrine is implied, that God wanted Adam to sin.

So, according to this doctrine, God gave Adam a command, but God was hoping Adam would disobey.

Apostle Paul debunked this when he said he was foolishly accused of saying “let us do evil, that good may come.” Romans 3:8

 

[Psalty]

The Bible tells us that God makes His sun rise on the evil as well as on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. He is kind to the unthankful and evil. He has compassion on all that He has made. If you believe that is love, then God does indeed love everybody.
But the word 'love' is not used in any of those texts. Rather, it is used here: '.... Having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end [or 'to the uttermost']' (John 13:1).
The problem with Arminianism (if that is the theory you subscribe to) is that it teaches that God loves everybody a bit, but nobody enough to save him. It is all left up to us. I hope you never pray for anyone to be saved. According to you, God will not answer that prayer. He is not in the actual salvation business. He offers salvation, but then backs off and leaves it up to us. If He really did that, no one would ever be saved for the reasons I gave in post #77.

Sun rising on the evil and Good is not love, just God operating creation for all His creatures. The question is does He love them all?

The difference is that Calvinists believe that God created children, then damned them all, then only loved some of them enough to save them. He does not Agape them all, only ones predetermined.

In my view, (not speaking to Arminianism as I dont know that system,) God created everyone and loves them all, but sovereignly chose to let them accept redemption through His grace or not. Even if they dont choose Him, He still maximally Loves them, but respects their choice.

On my understanding, this is what allows humans to love God, because effectual action on Gods part to ontologically change their hearts to “love” Him cannot be love in its english definition at all.

God still retains all glory because on this view, even if the person choses God, they are powerless. Only Christ get the glory because their “choice” is meaningless if Christ did not die for their sin.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Sun rising on the evil and Good is not love, just God operating creation for all His creatures. The question is does He love them all?

What do you think God ought to do for evil people?

The difference is that Calvinists believe that God created children, then damned them all, then only loved some of them enough to save them. He does not Agape them all, only ones predetermined.

In my view, (not speaking to Arminianism as I dont know that system,) God created everyone and loves them all, but sovereignly chose to let them accept redemption through His grace or not. Even if they dont choose Him, He still maximally Loves them, but respects their choice.

On my understanding, this is what allows humans to love God, because effectual action on Gods part to ontologically change their hearts to “love” Him cannot be love in its english definition at all.

God still retains all glory because on this view, even if the person choses God, they are powerless. Only Christ get the glory because their “choice” is meaningless if Christ did not die for their sin.

Unfortunately, not only do you not know Arminianism, but you don't know Calvinism either.
Calvinists have always preached that 'Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' However, the fact is that people will not turn to the Lord of themselves. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world and men preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). This is not because God prevents them, but because they refuse to (John 5:40; Rev. 9:20-21). If God merely 'allows' humans to love Him, then no one will be saved. People exercise their free will not to come to Christ because their hearts are wicked and unbelieving. That is why the Lord Jesus says, 'Unless one is born again [or 'from above'], he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Now how much say did you have in your own birth? None! The time simply came for you to be born, and you were. Having been born anew, men and women exercise their free will in a different way, and come to Christ.

 

[Ascetic X]

Having been born anew, men and women exercise their free will in a different way, and come to Christ.

There you have it — you can be born again without coming to Christ. Coming to Christ comes after.

Then why did John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter preach “Repent and believe the gospel”?

To comply with this Calvinist error, there would be no command in the preaching, since the unsaved cannot seek God. So they should have preached “Attention, everyone. Maybe God will rebirth you and force you to repent.”

Calvinist evangelists and pastors should never preach the gospel, since the elect do not need to hear it and the unsaved cannot respond to it.

 

[Psalty]

What do you think God ought to do for evil people?

Offer forgiveness to them because He is a father who created them and loves them.

Unfortunately, not only do you not know Arminianism, but you don't know Calvinism either.
Calvinists have always preached that 'Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' However, the fact is that people will not turn to the Lord of themselves. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world and men preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). This is not because God prevents them, but because they refuse to (John 5:40; Rev. 9:20-21).

You arent being honest about Calvinism here. Be honest… you know that in Calvinism God has decreed that those in sin cannot turn to Him. This is the teaching of your system. You dont get to only go to the surface level and not talk about the underlying truth of the system.

Not only that but your system teaches that from the foundation of the world God did not love the reprobate, only those that loved before the foundation of the world.

If God merely 'allows' humans to love Him, then no one will be saved. People exercise their free will not to come to Christ because their hearts are wicked and unbelieving.
That is why the Lord Jesus says, 'Unless one is born again [or 'from above'], he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

Right… except that the message of the gospel is the power of God that people can respond to.

Now how much say did you have in your own birth? None! The time simply came for you to be born, and you were. Having been born anew, men and women exercise their free will in a different way, and come to Christ.

Exactly. Its God choice to forgive. All of your wanting and desire and will cannot save you. The power of God through the grace of the gospel is required. Praise God that in His time the wind blew and the Gospel came to the earth and blows across this world, coming to individuals through His disciples in obedience to the Great Commission through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Aaron]

“Don’t get all holy and virtuous on me.” ???

“someone was made through whom sin and death might enter that world” ???

Yeah, just like you're doing right now.

So in your strange theology, Adam was created, not to be an image of God, not to enjoy God’s presence and blessings, not to work in the garden, not to be a companion to Eve, not to be fruitful with her and replenish the earth with more humans — but solely to sin and introduce death into the world?

Once again, this doctrine is implied, that God wanted Adam to sin.

So, according to this doctrine, God gave Adam a command, but God was hoping Adam would disobey.

Apostle Paul debunked this when he said he was foolishly accused of saying “let us do evil, that good may come.” Romans 3:8

Maybe don't focus on my one statement about Adam, and focus on what I'm saying about Christ. All the assumptions at the root of your consternation have been hashed out countless times in this forum. Your position can be summed up thusly: Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

And the Spirit's answer is geared to shut down the presumptuous pride at its root: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So I'm not interested in dancing around the tree. I'm interested in going to the root of our disagreement, and that is our view of Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Right, the Calvinist view is that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass:

Isaiah 46:9-10 [NASB] "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; [I am] God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My plan will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’”

Ephesians 1:11 [NASB] “In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,”

Hebrews 6:17 [NASB] “In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath,”

Not just the “Calvinist” view, but also the Biblical view: God decrees “all things” and what God decrees “will be established”.

 

[Ascetic X]

Yeah, just like you're doing right now.


Maybe don't focus on my one statement about Adam, and focus on what I'm saying about Christ. All the assumptions at the root of your consternation have been hashed out countless times in this forum. Your position can be summed up thusly: Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

And the Spirit's answer is geared to shut down the presumptuous pride at its root: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So I'm not interested in dancing around the tree. I'm interested in going to the root of our disagreement, and that is our view of Christ.

No, my position is: What God allows is not what God wills to happen.

I see our disagreement being centered on God wanting Adam to sin.

This is blasphemy, making our holy God to be the champion of evil.

 

[Psalty]

Isaiah 46:9-10 [NASB] "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; [I am] God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My plan will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’”

What singular plan is God talking about? You just quoted this to say that God decrees everything! In context, the plan to restore Israel through Christ:

“I bring near My righteousness, it is not far off;
And My salvation will not delay.
And I will grant salvation in Zion,
And My glory for Israel.
— Isaiah 46:13

Ephesians 1:11 [NASB] “In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,”

Again, what is The Plan of His will? To determine everything? This does not say so. To determine some things? Or does it say that in the plan of His will is that IF we are in Christ through faith, according to His Plan we will be holy and blameless? He chose us IN HIM, not TO BE IN HIM. Yes, He works all things in the purpose of His plan for those of us IN HIM to become holy and blameless, exactly what he said previously.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. — Ephesians 1:4

Hebrews 6:17 [NASB] “In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath,”

Again, you quote this to support God decreeing ALL THINGS, yet in contrct this is about God keeping His singular promise of blessing to Abraham!

Not just the “Calvinist” view, but also the Biblical view: God decrees “all things” and what God decrees “will be established”.

Friend, you are extrapolating far beyond scripture, yet you think you are being faithful to the text. You quotes your strongest 3 verses which you have taken all out of context to say far more than what they mean.

And you still dont escape from God decreeing evil in the garden, which you quickly try to get away from. If I take your stance, I have a God who decrees a plan of sin so He can be a redeemer. This does not line up with the heart of God revealed in the bible.

 

[percho]

1 John 3:8 YLT he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

Gen 1:2 YLT the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

From 2 Cor 4:4 YLT in whom the god of this age
From 2 Cor 4:6 YLT because it is God who said, Out of darkness light, to shine

Was the devil, the sinner from the beginning, the god of this age of darkness mixed with the light of God, the purpose for the flesh and blood man Adam in order the Son of God could me manifested as flesh and blood to destroy the already existing works of the devil, which soon thereafter would include in the man to be created, sin and death? How is the manifested Son of God as flesh and blood going to destroy the devil and his works, thus redeeming the man in whose image he is going to be manifested? Is it through the following?

Hebrews 2:14 YLT Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

Was the battle raging before the man was created? How long has the darkness of this age existed?

Eph 6:12 YLT

because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

 

[Ascetic X]

And you still dont escape from God decreeing evil in the garden, which you quickly try to get away from. If I take your stance, I have a God who decrees a plan of sin so He can be a redeemer. This does not line up with the heart of God revealed in the bible.

Psalty, you nailed it! They fabricate a fiction, that God decrees a plan of Adam disobeying God and committing sin, so that God can employ His Son as the redeemer.

 

[atpollard]

Friend, you are extrapolating far beyond scripture, yet you think you are being faithful to the text. You quotes your strongest 3 verses which you have taken all out of context to say far more than what they mean.

Not at all.
Isaiah 46:9-10 … Will God’s plan BE ESTABLISHED? Will God accomplish ALL HIS GOOD PLEASURE?
[A simple ‘yes‘ or ‘no’ will do.]

Ephesians 1:11 … Does God work ALL THINGS according to His will?
[A simple ‘yes‘ or ‘no’ will do.]

Hebrews 6:17 … Is God’s purpose UNCHANGEABLE?
[A simple ‘yes‘ or ‘no’ will do.]

Does the “context” really spin “BE ESTABLISHED” and “ALL HIS GOOD PLEASURE” and “ALL THINGS” and “UNCHANGEABLE” to ‘really mean’ exactly the opposite … NOT established, NOT what God wants, NOT all things, and NOT unchangeable?

 

[Ascetic X]

Not at all.
Isaiah 46:9-10 … Will God’s plan BE ESTABLISHED? Will God accomplish ALL HIS GOOD PLEASURE?
[A simple ‘yes‘ or ‘no’ will do.]

Ephesians 1:11 … Does God work ALL THINGS according to His will?
[A simple ‘yes‘ or ‘no’ will do.]

Hebrews 6:17 … Is God’s purpose UNCHANGEABLE?
[A simple ‘yes‘ or ‘no’ will do.]

Does the “context” really spin “BE ESTABLISHED” and “ALL HIS GOOD PLEASURE” and “ALL THINGS” and “UNCHANGEABLE” to ‘really mean’ exactly the opposite … NOT established, NOT what God wants, NOT all things, and NOT unchangeable?

People sin, but God never wills anyone to sin. To say God wants evil to happen is blasphemy.

People reject God and perish, but God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Yet Jesus says the road to life is narrow, and few there be that find it.