Jesus Christ: The Atonement For The Human Race

[JonShaff]

do you understand both "atonement" and "reconciliation" as the same thing?

Yes.

At-One-Ment

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I believe the context suggests that Christ Himself is the appeasement that turns aside the wrath to come. I think this because of the verses prior to 2:2.

That said, when we speak of "the Atonement" we are not normally as specific (I am thinking of a few authors like Piper and Carson). It seems we often deal with "atonement" to represent many aspects beyond atonement itself.

But theology often clouds what the Bible actually teaches and causes more confusion than helping us understand Bible Doctrine

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Atonement in the Old Testament "covered" the Sins of God's People--already reconciled People. They were awaiting the Day for Christ to "Purge" them with His Blood...

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

NASB
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

You see, the sins that were "Covered" were those of the Israelites who were already in Covenant relationship with God. They were completely "done away with" when Christ Shed His blood.

Hebrews 9
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God! 15Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant

Verse 26 of Romans 3 expands on verse 25, "It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ only became "effective" in the sinner, when they had faith in Jesus, being born-again.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Yes.

At-One-Ment

But that meaning is not what the definitions in the languages say, though I have seen this in theology. Theology often distorts what the Bible is actually trying to say!

 

[JonShaff]

But that meaning is not what the definitions in the languages say, though I have seen this in theology. Theology often distorts what the Bible is actually trying to say!

Context, my brother. The Word Atonement in the NT Greek means "Reconciliation"...it's used 4 times in the NT...translated "Reconciliation" 3 Times and "Atonement" 1...and the context of that "1 time" says it should be "reconciliation".

 

[TCassidy]

The English word 'atonement' originally meant "at-one-ment", i.e. being "at one", in harmony, with someone.

Check a good dictionary with both and etymology and a philology section.

All those to whom the Atonement is applied are "at-one" with God. If the Atonement is Universal, the At-One-Ment is Universal and all are at One, in harmony, with God.

 

[JonC]

But theology often clouds what the Bible actually teaches and causes more confusion than helping us understand Bible Doctrine

It can, and often does, I agree. But that isn't the fault of theology itself.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The English word 'atonement' originally meant "at-one-ment", i.e. being "at one", in harmony, with someone.

Check a good dictionary with both and etymology and a philology section.

All those to whom the Atonement is applied are "at-one" with God. If the Atonement is Universal, the At-One-Ment is Universal and all are at One, in harmony, with God.

This might be true in some English dictionaries, but as we know the Bible was not written in English. I am yet to see any standard Hebrew or Greek lexicon defining it as "harmony" or "at one". If you know of any, please quote them

“theol.) (a.) The influence or effects of the death of Christ in appeasing the divine Justice, and conciliating the divine favor, (b.) That which propitiates; atonement or atoning sacrifice.” (Webster’s Complete Dictionary)

“Propitiation, appeasement, atonement” (Oxford English Dictionary)

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Context, my brother. The Word Atonement in the NT Greek means "Reconciliation"...it's used 4 times in the NT...translated "Reconciliation" 3 Times and "Atonement" 1...and the context of that "1 time" says it should be "reconciliation".

ca you quote one English translation, which uses the word "reconcile" at either Romans 3:25, or 1 John 2:2, 4:10?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

It can, and often does, I agree. But that isn't the fault of theology itself.

well, it can't be the fault with what the Bible says? ALL "theology" is man-made, supposed to be from the Bible

 

[JonShaff]

ca you quote one English translation, which uses the word "reconcile" at either Romans 3:25, or 1 John 2:2, 4:10?

Those are not the same words we are talking about though?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Those are not the same words we are talking about though?

I thought you said that you take "atonement" and "reconcile" as the same thing? In which case surely the English versions would have used the latter?

 

[JonShaff]

καταλλαγή

Translated

Rom 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. G2643

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling G2643 of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

2Co 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; G2643

2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. G2643

 

[JonC]

well, it can't be the fault with what the Bible says? ALL "theology" is man-made, supposed to be from the Bible

No, the fault is with man. But theology is simply the study of God. Some theology is good, some not so good. The issue is when people start believing their study, their conclusions, their theology is the Word of God.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

καταλλαγή

Translated

Rom 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. G2643

Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling G2643 of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

2Co 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; G2643

2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. G2643

Hi Jon, I think that you are not getting what I mean.

In #38 I asked you, "do you understand both "atonement" and "reconciliation" as the same thing?", and in #41 you replied yes.

My point is this. when the Apostles John used "ἱλασμός" in 1 John 2:2, 4:10, which has been translated, "propitiation"; and Paul in Romans 3:25 uses the Greek, "ἱλαστήριος", where it is also rendered "propitiation". Why did not any serious English version render either Greek word by "reconcile", if this is what it means? I am aware that the so called "Jubilee Bible", uses "reconciliation" in each place, but this is hardly a translation that is serious for any study.

 

[JonShaff]

Hi Jon, I think that you are not getting what I mean.

In #38 I asked you, "do you understand both "atonement" and "reconciliation" as the same thing?", and in #41 you replied yes.

My point is this. when the Apostles John used "ἱλασμός" in 1 John 2:2, 4:10, which has been translated, "propitiation"; and Paul in Romans 3:25 uses the Greek, "ἱλαστήριος", where it is also rendered "propitiation". Why did not any serious English version render either Greek word by "reconcile", if this is what it means? I am aware that the so called "Jubilee Bible", uses "reconciliation" in each place, but this is hardly a translation that is serious for any study.

yes, you have me confused lol.

When propitiate is used, It is used in regard to God, not man. Something of God's had to be propitiated.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

yes, you have me confused lol.

When propitiate is used, It is used in regard to God, not man. Something of God's had to be propitiated.

I understand that part. What I am getting at, is the fact that the greater majority (except 1 or maybe 2) of English versions do not use the English word "reconciliation" at either Romans 3:25, or 1 John 2:2, 4:10. If this Greek is equivalent as you say the English is, then surely these places would have translated by "reconciliation". So, 1 John 2:2, would read, "He is the reconciliation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world", etc.

Do you know of any Hebrew or Greek lexicon or dictionary that renders ἱλαστήριος, ἱλασμός, or כִּפֻּר, etc, by "reconciliation"?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Oxford English Multi-Volume Dictionary



Webster’s Complete English Dictionary



Samuel Johnson English Dictionary

 

[JonShaff]

I understand that part. What I am getting at, is the fact that the greater majority (except 1 or maybe 2) of English versions do not use the English word "reconciliation" at either Romans 3:25, or 1 John 2:2, 4:10. If this Greek is equivalent as you say the English is, then surely these places would have translated by "reconciliation". So, 1 John 2:2, would read, "He is the reconciliation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world", etc.

Do you know of any Hebrew or Greek lexicon or dictionary that renders ἱλαστήριος, ἱλασμός, or כִּפֻּר, etc, by "reconciliation"?

You have me confused with saying "propitiation" is equated to reconciliation. I have not said that.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You have me confused with saying "propitiation" is equated to reconciliation. I have not said that.

But aren't you saying that "atonement" equates to "reconciliation"?