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Jesus Christ: The Atonement For The Human Race

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It does get confusing as the words are used differently. For example, F. F. Bruce wrote that he preferred "propitiation" or "atonement" in 1 John 2:2 as it was not necessary to narrow it down to "expiation". At the same time he viewed this atonement/propitiation as a provision for the world.
     
    #61 JonC, Mar 9, 2018
  2. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    These are the basic meanings that the Greek lexical authorities give.
     
    #62 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    = bringing into harmony.
     
    #63 TCassidy, Mar 9, 2018
  4. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Yes, but propitiation is not equal to atonement or reconciliation.
     
    #64 JonShaff, Mar 9, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I see the problem with ἱλασμός being translated "atonement", as it better means, with LXX usage, "sin-offering", as Liddell and Scott have it. You are right, that the meaning of "atonement" is basically "at-one-ment", but this is more problematic with rendering the Greek ἱλασμός or Hebrew כִּפֻּר. I do agree, that no unsaved person can be said to "at one" with God, without the eminity being first removed in Christ. Nor can they be "reconciled" while they are "enemies" of God (John 3:36).
     
    #65 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018
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  6. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    "Propitiation" is defined by Greek and English lexicons as "atonement" as I have shown above. Though I prefer the more Biblical "sin-offering" for the former, as this is how the LXX uses it.
     
    #66 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree, but we are still talking about a 17th Century English word to represent a 1st Century idea represented by the Greek word. Words sometimes expand over time and gain a wider range of meaning. So I recognize the "at one ment" definition but I have also seen it used as our dictionaries suggest.
     
    #67 JonC, Mar 9, 2018
  8. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, "sin-offering" is a far better and more Biblical term to use.
     
    #68 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018
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  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What are the "range of meanings" for propitiation? That is what we consider for doing proper hermeneutics.
     
    #69 JonShaff, Mar 9, 2018
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  10. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    check #58
     
    #70 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God intent by the death of Jesus was to have His elect now saved out from sinful Humanity, and he did not mean it to save all sinners!
     
    #71 Yeshua1, Mar 9, 2018
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Or only those who believe...
     
    #72 Yeshua1, Mar 9, 2018
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    RIght, (Good job BTW) and we see that Something of God was appeased. I believe it is the Just Demands of the Law. Propitiation does not reconcile Man to God, It Satisfies a reality of God, apart from man--Namely, His Justice.

    I hope this makes sense :)
     
    #73 JonShaff, Mar 9, 2018
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Any time you read the bible and apply it, you are doing theology though, as you are giving to it your meaning...
     
    #74 Yeshua1, Mar 9, 2018
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    if it meant the same, than Christianity teaches Universalism!
     
    #75 Yeshua1, Mar 9, 2018
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God thru the death of Jesus has provided the means by which any sinner can get reconciled back to God, but onlky the Elect will avail themselves of it!
     
    #76 Yeshua1, Mar 9, 2018
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I'm ok with most of what you say, But why do you presuppose "But only the elect will..." in almost all of your statements concerning a theological component?
     
    #77 JonShaff, Mar 9, 2018
  18. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Well, that is YOUR personal theology. We are more interested in what the Bible actually teaches. 1 john 2:2 is very clear that there is NO "limit" on Jesus' saving only the "elect".
     
    #78 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018
  19. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    yes, Calvinism!
     
    #79 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 9, 2018
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The reason I like "propitiation" in 2:2 is this has the advocacy of Christ in mind (a mediator able to effect forgiveness).

    But I am also in favor of choosing the word which encompasses the widest range given the context of the passage.
     
    #80 JonC, Mar 9, 2018
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