Jesus Christ: The Atonement For The Human Race

[JonC]

It does get confusing as the words are used differently. For example, F. F. Bruce wrote that he preferred "propitiation" or "atonement" in 1 John 2:2 as it was not necessary to narrow it down to "expiation". At the same time he viewed this atonement/propitiation as a provision for the world.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

It does get confusing as the words are used differently. For example, F. F. Bruce wrote that he preferred "propitiation" or "atonement" in 1 John 2:2 as it was not necessary to narrow it down to "expiation". At the same time he viewed this atonement/propitiation as a provision for the world.

These are the basic meanings that the Greek lexical authorities give.

 

[TCassidy]

conciliating

= bringing into harmony.

 

[JonShaff]

But aren't you saying that "atonement" equates to "reconciliation"?

Yes, but propitiation is not equal to atonement or reconciliation.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

= bringing into harmony.

Yes, I see the problem with ἱλασμός being translated "atonement", as it better means, with LXX usage, "sin-offering", as Liddell and Scott have it. You are right, that the meaning of "atonement" is basically "at-one-ment", but this is more problematic with rendering the Greek ἱλασμός or Hebrew כִּפֻּר. I do agree, that no unsaved person can be said to "at one" with God, without the eminity being first removed in Christ. Nor can they be "reconciled" while they are "enemies" of God (John 3:36).

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Yes, but propitiation is not equal to atonement or reconciliation.

"Propitiation" is defined by Greek and English lexicons as "atonement" as I have shown above. Though I prefer the more Biblical "sin-offering" for the former, as this is how the LXX uses it.

 

[JonC]

These are the basic meanings that the Greek lexical authorities give.

I agree, but we are still talking about a 17th Century English word to represent a 1st Century idea represented by the Greek word. Words sometimes expand over time and gain a wider range of meaning. So I recognize the "at one ment" definition but I have also seen it used as our dictionaries suggest.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I agree, but we are still talking about a 17th Century English word to represent a 1st Century idea represented by the Greek word. Words sometimes expand over time and gain a wider range of meaning. So I recognize the "at one ment" definition but I have also seen it used as our dictionaries suggest.

Yes, "sin-offering" is a far better and more Biblical term to use.

 

[JonShaff]

"Propitiation" is defined by Greek and English lexicons as "atonement" as I have shown above. Though I prefer the more Biblical "sin-offering" for the former, as this is how the LXX uses it.

What are the "range of meanings" for propitiation? That is what we consider for doing proper hermeneutics.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

What are the "range of meanings" for propitiation? That is what we consider for doing proper hermeneutics.

check #58

 

[Yeshua1]

but even those who say that Jesus "died" for the world without exception, will argue that this does not extend to the "atonement", which they claim is only for the "elect". I believe, till shown otherwise, that this passage from 1 John shows that Jesus' death in every way, is for the entire human race. However, this does not mean that the entire world is saved automatically, but, only to those who will "accept" what Jesus has done for them, as Paul says in Romans 3

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a mercy-seat (covering) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus." (24-26)

Where the verb, προτίθεμαι (set forth), here has the meaning, "to offer", or, “provided” for a propitiatory gift. To those who would "accept" this "gift of atoning sacrifice"

God intent by the death of Jesus was to have His elect now saved out from sinful Humanity, and he did not mean it to save all sinners!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. But in the OT people offered an atonement (an atoning sacrifice). I think in the same way we can say that Christ is the atonement or propitiation for our sins without meaning that Christ has reconciled sin or even all men to God.

Another way of saying this would be that Christ is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Or only those who believe...

 

[JonShaff]

check #58

RIght, (Good job BTW) and we see that Something of God was appeased. I believe it is the Just Demands of the Law. Propitiation does not reconcile Man to God, It Satisfies a reality of God, apart from man--Namely, His Justice.

I hope this makes sense

 

[Yeshua1]

But theology often clouds what the Bible actually teaches and causes more confusion than helping us understand Bible Doctrine

Any time you read the bible and apply it, you are doing theology though, as you are giving to it your meaning...

 

[Yeshua1]

But aren't you saying that "atonement" equates to "reconciliation"?

if it meant the same, than Christianity teaches Universalism!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, I see the problem with ἱλασμός being translated "atonement", as it better means, with LXX usage, "sin-offering", as Liddell and Scott have it. You are right, that the meaning of "atonement" is basically "at-one-ment", but this is more problematic with rendering the Greek ἱλασμός or Hebrew כִּפֻּר. I do agree, that no unsaved person can be said to "at one" with God, without the eminity being first removed in Christ. Nor can they be "reconciled" while they are "enemies" of God (John 3:36).

God thru the death of Jesus has provided the means by which any sinner can get reconciled back to God, but onlky the Elect will avail themselves of it!

 

[JonShaff]

God thru the death of Jesus has provided the means by which any sinner can get reconciled back to God, but onlky the Elect will avail themselves of it!

I'm ok with most of what you say, But why do you presuppose "But only the elect will..." in almost all of your statements concerning a theological component?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God intent by the death of Jesus was to have His elect now saved out from sinful Humanity, and he did not mean it to save all sinners!

Well, that is YOUR personal theology. We are more interested in what the Bible actually teaches. 1 john 2:2 is very clear that there is NO "limit" on Jesus' saving only the "elect".

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I'm ok with most of what you say, But why do you presuppose "But only the elect will..." in almost all of your statements concerning a theological component?

yes, Calvinism!

 

[JonC]

The reason I like "propitiation" in 2:2 is this has the advocacy of Christ in mind (a mediator able to effect forgiveness).

But I am also in favor of choosing the word which encompasses the widest range given the context of the passage.