Jesus/God in Hell?

[Moriah]

You are contadicting yourself!

I am not contradicting myself.

In the first quotation above you acknolwedge that all come into the world as unbelievers while in the second quotation you deny all come into the world as God rejectors (unbelievers).

We do not come into the world as believers, nor do we come into the world as rejecters. We have to be taught about God. If a person is taught about God then believes, they obviously are not rejecters. The scripture in Romans is about people who knew God and rejected God. The passage is about even if they said they did not know God, that they should have known just from the world and all creation that there is a God. That there are people who love their sin; however, not everyone loves their sin.

Paul claims there is "NONE, NO, NOT ONE" among both Jews and Gentiles that do not fit this description - Rom. 3:9-20 but YOU DO!

I have already explained to you that Paul is explaining why even the Gentile sinners can be saved, that the children of God sinned just like everyone else; the Jews sinned just like everyone else who does not even have a relationship with God. God told His children the Jews that He would walk among them! Yet they still were sinners like anyone else.
Again, Paul was quoting the Old Testament scriptures that say no one is righteous and does not ever sin.

Paul is not talking about SOME specially wicked people but "ALL THE WORLD" and excluding "NO FLESH" and including "EVERY MOUTH" while you call Paul an outright liar by denying those "Jew and gentile" include ALL THE WORLD but only a special wicked class! Can't you understand "ALL THE WORLD" does not mean JUST SOME SPECIAL WICKED CLASS?

Even you gave an example using steps to show how a person gets worse and worse as time goes by if he is not saved! If a person was saved before the fourth step or the third step, then they are not the person Paul is talking about in Romans. Let me say, though, I do not believe in your step explanation for everyone.

HE IS TALKING ABOUT MORIAH - YOU and EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING EVER BORN AND WILL BE BORN. He is quoting from Psalm 14:2 where God looked down from heaven upon "THE CHIDLREN OF MEN" not Jews, not Gentiles but MEN in general and God saw NONE, NO NOT ONE who were seekers, good, as you keep erroneously claiming there are such!

You quote a Psalm and try to say every human being ever born and will be born is evil and does not want God, but Psalm 14 proves you wrong. Psalm 14:1 says it is about fools. Psalm 14:3 says, “all have turned aside,” if someone can turn aside, that alone shows you they were not always so evil. Then Psalm 14:9 proves you wrong even further by telling us that God is present in the company of the righteous! You however say no one is righteous.

Jesus said to a very religious man that "THERE IS NONE GOD but ONE and that is God." Jesus denie the rich young ruler was a "good" person and that you are a "good" person. That is why sinners must be saved by "GRACE" and "MERCY" because there are NONE, NO NOT ONE good, righteuos or seekers.

Jesus says no one is good but God. That does NOT mean people do not do good. You do not know the scriptures, if you knew the scriptures, you would understand what Jesus says, and if you needed someone to explain it to you, then you would believe it when the truth is explained to you.
You misunderstand Jesus so now you are confused about the word ‘good,’ and afraid to call anyone good. Even Jesus calls a man good in Matthew 12:35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
Only God is good is explaining that anyone who does anything good it is done through God. Read John 3:21, the people who do good and learn about Jesus, they are the ones who come to the light to show that what they do is through God.

Go ahead and fine these so called good persons that are not ungodly in Romans 1:18-3:23! Go ahead an attempt to contradict Paul's universal language "ALL the world" "no flesh" and "every mouth" and "NONE, NO, NOT ONE" and produce these so-called good people seeking righteousness and God in this context of sin and salvation context? I dare you to point them out.

I quoted the Lord Jesus Christ calling some good. Matthew 12:35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
Of course, though, you have been so indoctrinated by your false teachers that you cannot see the truth.
Here is another scripture where Jesus says there are good and bad people. Do not say they were saved first, because the scripture says the servants went out into the streets and gathered people.
Matthew 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
In addition, read about the Good Samaritan. The Jews did not even associate with Samaritans, yet Jesus uses a parable about a Good Samaritan.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not contradicting myself.

Oh yes you are! You have a false theological talking point that has absolutely no basis in scripture and you are repudiating scriptures by your theological presumptions. Leave your EISGETICAL explanations outside of this text and deal with the langauge and context of the text instead of making it fit your theological talking points.

Paul is talking about EVERY HUMAN BEING ever born and their condition BEFORE they are saved. Every human being is born a REJECTOR of the light they are given and every human being RESISTS the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) by the very nature they come with born into this world (Rom. 8:7-8). There are NONE that come into the world LOVING or RECIEVING the light (Jn. 3:18-19) but hate the light by nature. This is Paul's point from Romans 1:18-3:23 without out giving ANY EXCEPTION to that rule. I dare you to find such an exception to that universal rule - "ALL THE WORLD" and "NO FLESH" and "EVERY MOUTH' and "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE FOR ALL" and "NONE, NO, NOT ONE."

What you do, is Jump ahead when a person is saved and then use them as the exception to the rule when in fact prior to salvation they are not an exception to this rule.

Again, Paul was quoting the Old Testament scriptures that say no one is righteous and does not ever sin.

He is apply Old Testament truth of UNIVERSAL DEPRAVITY to NEW TESTAMENT readers because what is true of all men before the cross is true of all men after the cross and only salvation makes the difference.

Even you gave an example using steps to show how a person gets worse and worse as time goes by if he is not saved![/ QUOTE]

you don'e even understand what you are saying here. You are admitting they are REJECTORS of the light as that is the FIRST step (Rom. 1:18-23) in digression into more corruptive steps. They could not be given over unto more corruption if the principle of corruption was not already at work IN THEM! Nothing prevents any sinner from being a "hitler" but Gods restraining grace as the potential comes with birth and is manifested by resistence and rejection as soon as they are confronted light because by nature they HATE THE LIGHT and WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT and that is precisely why they need to be SAVED as that IS the lost condition with full pontential for worsening.


You don't believe the Word of God as you repudiate Paul's step by step condemnation of ALL Jews and Gentiles by birth and practice if left to themselves as THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS provided by Paul in Romans 1:18-3:23 as he repudiates completely and entirely your false exceptions to the rule.

You quote a Psalm and try to say every human being ever born and will be born is evil and does not want God, but Psalm 14 proves you wrong. Psalm 14:1 says it is about fools.

What do you think an UNBELEIVER is but a "fool"? What do you think a "sinner" against God is but a "FOOL." This is God's estimation of not merely a specific group of humans but "THE CHILDREN OF MEN" universally as Paul quotes that text and then demands there is "NONE, NO, NOT ONE" human being that is any different as "ALL THE WORLD" not SOME of the world, and NO FLESH but SOME flesh, and EVERY mouth, not SOME mouths, and there is NO DIFFERENCE in regard to their state as sinners from birth continuously while in unbelief BEFORE salvation.

Your EXCEPTION doctrine calls Paul a liar, calls Christ a liar when he said "THERE IS NONE GOOD but one and that is God" as he addressed this to the very kind of person you would claim was THE EXCEPTION but Christ denies ANY exception - "THERE IS NONE good BUT ONE" and you are not that one and neither is any human ever born but God and Jesus is God.

Psalm 14:3 says, “all have turned aside,” if someone can turn aside, that alone shows you they were not always so evil. Then Psalm 14:9 proves you wrong even further by telling us that God is present in the company of the righteous! You however say no one is righteous.

First, the very text you quote denies that ANY have not turned aside and so that means ALL CHILDREN OF MEN have turned aside. So no exceptions to the rule. That in itself destroys your EXCEPTION class of humans.

Second, mankind turned aside from truth when Adam turned aside as "BY ONE MAN's DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" and then when they were individually born into this world with a SINFUL NATURE they turned aside from ANY and ALL light they are exposed to (Rom. 1:18) because Paul says they supress it, reject it. That is precisely what they need to be SAVED FROM.

Jesus says no one is good but God. That does NOT mean people do not do good.

If you were not so serious, what you say deserves to be mocked and ridiculed as so foolish it hardly understandable why you could even utter such nonsense with a straight face! You cannot DO GOOD if you are NOT GOOD because DOING GOOD comes from one who IS GOOD. Jesus said make the tree GOOD so that the fruit can be GOOD.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Oh dear, God forgot about Moriah when Job said that. He should have said "not one BUT Moriah"

 

[Moriah]

You have a false theological talking point that has absolutely no basis in scripture and you are repudiating scriptures by your theological presumptions. Leave your EISGETICAL explanations outside of this text and deal with the langauge and context of the text instead of making it fit your theological talking points.

I am speaking God’s Truth.
Anyone who can see can see how Biblicist is resorting to his horrible hostile attacks for his type of debate tactic.

Paul is talking about EVERY HUMAN BEING ever born and their condition BEFORE they are saved. Every human being is born a REJECTOR of the light they are given and every human being RESISTS the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) by the very nature they come with born into this world (Rom. 8:7-8). There are NONE that come into the world LOVING or RECIEVING the light (Jn. 3:18-19) but hate the light by nature. This is Paul's point from Romans 1:18-3:23 without out giving ANY EXCEPTION to that rule. I dare you to find such an exception to that universal rule - "ALL THE WORLD" and "NO FLESH" and "EVERY MOUTH' and "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE FOR ALL" and "NONE, NO, NOT ONE."

I have explained the scriptures to you, but you still do not believe. You go against the scriptures you go against common sense.

you don'e even understand what you are saying here. You are admitting they are REJECTORS of the light as that is the FIRST step (Rom. 1:18-23) in digression into more corruptive steps. They could not be given over unto more corruption if the principle of corruption was not already at work IN THEM! Nothing prevents any sinner from being a "hitler" but Gods restraining grace as the potential comes with birth and is manifested by resistence and rejection as soon as they are confronted light because by nature they HATE THE LIGHT and WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT and that is precisely why they need to be SAVED as that IS the lost condition with full pontential for worsening.

You go against common sense, for there are many atheists and unbelievers, are they ALL Hitlers, as you say? No, they are not, and you do not explain well, for you go against the Truth.

If you were not so serious, what you say deserves to be mocked and ridiculed as so foolish it hardly understandable why you could even utter such nonsense with a straight face! You cannot DO GOOD if you are NOT GOOD because DOING GOOD comes from one who IS GOOD. Jesus said make the tree GOOD so that the fruit can be GOOD.

Do you know how many doctors are atheists? With your explanation about humans, all doctors are Hitlers. Do you know how many atheist parents there are who love their children and take care of them? According to you, they are all Hitlers, are they all killing their children? You go against God and believe false doctrines that go against wisdom and common sense.
Why did you not comment on the Good Samaritan proof I gave you? The Jews did not even associate with Samaritans, yet Jesus uses a parable about a Good Samaritan.

 

[Jon-Marc]

The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus was in hell, but that He was in Paradise. There was a gulf between hell and Paradise that kept any from passing over from one to the other. You can read it in Luke 16.

 

[Fred's Wife]

The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus was in hell, but that He was in Paradise. There was a gulf between hell and Paradise that kept any from passing over from one to the other. You can read it in Luke 16.

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[Moriah]

The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus was in hell, but that He was in Paradise. There was a gulf between hell and Paradise that kept any from passing over from one to the other. You can read it in Luke 16.

The gospel was preached to those who disobeyed long ago. Does that sound like they got to go to paradise?
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 1 Peter 3:20.

 

[Fred's Wife]

The gospel was preached to those who disobeyed long ago. Does that sound like they got to go to paradise?
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 1 Peter 3:20.

Those to whom the gospel was preached were LIVING at the time Noah preached to them....he preached for 120 years. They did not go to paradise/Abraham's bosom...they went to hell/prison and were DEAD when Peter penned his epistle and they are STILL DEAD in hell/prison at the present time.

Jesus did not descend into hell/Hades to preach the Gospel to anyone.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am speaking God’s Truth.
Anyone who can see can see how Biblicist is resorting to his horrible hostile attacks for his type of debate tactic.


I have explained the scriptures to you, but you still do not believe. You go against the scriptures you go against common sense.


You go against common sense, for there are many atheists and unbelievers, are they ALL Hitlers, as you say? No, they are not, and you do not explain well, for you go against the Truth.


Do you know how many doctors are atheists? With your explanation about humans, all doctors are Hitlers. Do you know how many atheist parents there are who love their children and take care of them? According to you, they are all Hitlers, are they all killing their children? You go against God and believe false doctrines that go against wisdom and common sense.
Why did you not comment on the Good Samaritan proof I gave you? The Jews did not even associate with Samaritans, yet Jesus uses a parable about a Good Samaritan.

Look at your responses! Nothing but PERSONAL OPINIONS that I have repudiated WITH SCRIPTURES.

Look at how you respond! You can't even deal with the textual wording but simply give your worthless personal opinions that are in direct contradiction to what these texts actually and explicitly state to the contrary of your opinions.

 

[Moriah]

Look at your responses! Nothing but PERSONAL OPINIONS that I have repudiated WITH SCRIPTURES.

Look at how you respond! You can't even deal with the textual wording but simply give your worthless personal opinions that are in direct contradiction to what these texts actually and explicitly state to the contrary of your opinions.

Your accusations about me are not true. Why do you not stop personal attacking and try replying to what I said? You said ALL unbelievers are Hitlers. Does that sound logical in the slightest? No. You said no one can do anything good ever. Readers, does that make sense to you? For Jesus says even the wicked and ungrateful love those who love them.
Biblicist has been indoctrinated with false teachings.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your accusations about me are not true.

They are absolutely true! You never once answered one question that easily could be answered by the very scriptures I presented. You ignored the scriptuers, ignored the questions and simply rattled off WORTHLESS PERSONL OPINIONS that had nothing to do with the Scriptures presented you.

You said ALL unbelievers are Hitlers.

I said no such thing! That is an absolute lie! What I said was that every sinner has the same potential to be a hilter if not restrained by God's grace. You pervert the Scritpures and you pervert my words.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

They are absolutely true! You never once answered one question that easily could be answered by the very scriptures I presented. You ignored the scriptuers, ignored the questions and simply rattled off WORTHLESS PERSONL OPINIONS that had nothing to do with the Scriptures presented you.



I said no such thing! That is an absolute lie! What I said was that every sinner has the same potential to be a hilter if not restrained by God's grace. You pervert the Scritpures and you pervert my words.

I've come to expect nothing less from Moriah. He has been consistent in twisting one's words and then claiming that he didn't.

Can't win the debate using the Scripture, so he has to attack the messenger. Typical move.

 

[Moriah]

That is an absolute lie! What I said was that every sinner has the same potential to be a hilter if not restrained by God's grace. You pervert the Scritpures and you pervert my words.

You said it again right here. That is ridiculous to say all unbelievers have the same potential to be a Hitler. There are unbelievers who will not even eat an animal, or wear leather, you say they are potential Hitlers is a complete misunderstanding of the scriptures and a rejection of wisdom and common sense.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Fred has the gall to accuse Moriah of attacking the messenger; that shows Fred to be the biggest liar and hypocrite on the forum since he is the worst initiator of personal attacks here.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I don't think the grammar does settle it. An argument can be made that those who are now in hell due to just judgement in the time of Noah had the gospel preached to them by Noah in whom the Spirit of Christ was responsible for his preaching. This is consistent with Acts 10:43 and with Peter's own descriptive words in chapter one "the Spirit of Christ" which was in them. This is consistent with Noah being called a preacher of righteousness. This is consistent with the flow of the immediate context that warns Christians to be careful not to be the objects of just judgement and with the fact that Christ suffered unjustly by the hands of his enemies but suffered justly as a substitute for his people.

Furthermore, if your position were correct why is it limited to only those who are in hell due to the flood??? Why not to everyone in hell? Your interpretation is irrational.

However, let us suppose your theory is true. Let us suppose that Christ did descend into hell. There is nothing to support your conclusion that he went to hell to preach DELIVERANCE unto them and give them a second chance! In keeping with the context of JUST JUDGEMENT versus UNJUST JUDGEMENT he may have gone to hell to suffer the just judgement for his people as a substitute in their place in hell while preaching to those in hell their JUST condemnation for rejecting the preaching of Noah in whom the Spirit of Christ indwelt. His very presence was their just condemnation in hell.

First of all, you don't know what my conclusion is. Secondly, we are not dealing with that here; we are dealing with the correct meaning of a passage of scripture. For all the reasons I mentioned, it means one thing and one thing only; that's what the scripture explicitly states, and that's what the early church believed and taught. Period.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You gave a very well written explanation. Glad to see you back!

Thank you.

It is clear: The literal scripture, correct grammatical usage, and the early church prove what is true. But the contortionists will continue, no doubt.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Thank you.

It is clear: The literal scripture, correct grammatical usage, and the early church prove what is true. But the contortionists will continue, no doubt.

Yes, you sure will.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Fred has the gall to accuse Moriah of attacking the messenger; that shows Fred to be the biggest liar and hypocrite on the forum since he is the worst initiator of personal attacks here.

And MW also attacks the messenger because he cannot disprove the message.

 

[33ad]

Apostles creed translation

The oldest version of the apostles creed that we still have a record of from. 180 ad is below. The original is in Greek

I am a indepth researcher of early Christianity

Hell is translated from the word hades
"which means land of the dead separated from God"

Catholic is translated from the word catholikos
"which means universal united Christian"

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The truth is quite clear. The literal rendering of the scripture passage, its correct grammatical sense, and the belief of the early church all prove beyond doubt what the passage means. All to the contrary is merely "Chubby Checker time". :laugh:

 

[The Biblicist]

Fred has the gall to accuse Moriah of attacking the messenger; that shows Fred to be the biggest liar and hypocrite on the forum since he is the worst initiator of personal attacks here.

No the biggest liar and hypocrit on this forum is YOU! On your past forums you complained that others were calling you names and how hypocritical and ungodly that was BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING IN THIS POST.