Jesus is the Savior of All, Especially those that Believe

[SovereignGrace]

Bro. mwc...

God is a God of Love, man has the innate ability to love God gave man the ability to love the innate ability to Love, eros love as well as Philadelphia Love that is brother love. Man whether saved or not has the ability to fall in Love with a woman and a woman with a man. Parents have a great love for their children at least most do. But man does not possess agape’ Love that is the unconditional Love that God shows to sinners.

Again, anything innate focuses upon anything and everything BUT God. The lost, the unregenerate, do not love God. To love God, the bible says Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.[1 John 4:7] Those who love God in a true biblical manner have been born of God and born of His love. This is not innate love. And to know God as the bible ascribes to loving God is in an intimate manner. No lost person has an intimate relationship with Him. That is why I avered that those who have saving faith, have a relationship with Him, seeing it was He who initiated that relationship to begin with.

God is a God of mercy and many humans have the ability to show mercy upon others.

Yet many do not have mercy on other.

God is truth man has an innate ability to tell the truth but is not constantly telling the truth.

Tighten the screws on the unregenerate hard enough and they'll lie like it's easier than taking a breath. Just because someone is honest as the day is long does not mean they're saved. I was just as honest as I could be, but if I got into trouble, I'd lie to keep my fanny out of the fire.

God is wise, men are wise many genius level but they are not spiritual wise.

Many wise folk deny God's existence. Einstein was an atheist. God did not reveal Himself to the wise and learned, but unto babes. Then Jesus said “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.[Matthew 7:24-25] True wisdom, that wisdom required of His people comes from God. The wisdom man innately has does not honor God in fact, it spits at Him.

God is a God of wrath and man can be very much full of wrath.

Men are not holy, however, God is. We are not to allow our wrath to remain after sundown. God is Holy, and every attribute of His is pure and sinless.

Come on Brother. You're striking out here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Bro. mwc...

So man was created with several attributes which are innate in him, where does purity of heart come in as an innate purity of heart?

Adam was created without sin. Any and all attributes he had were not tainted by and with sin when he was created upright. Here is a verse that abused by your side of the debate..."This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”[Ecc. 7:29] Adam was made upright, and Eve, after being taken from Adam, was too. However...there's always that pesky 'however' in every debate ain't there?....after the fall, all of these attributes became corrupted by sin. It's like taking a pond with water clean and clear as a crystal. Dump a gallon of poison in it. That water is no longer clean but contaminated by poison. That was Adam. Once sin polluted him, it also polluted his posterity.

So there is no innate purity of heart. The heart is so wicked, so evil, that no one can know it.[/I]

 

[revmwc]

Bro. mwc...

You're looking at the heart of man as that heart that was given to Adam pre-fall, yet post-fall, the bible says The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?[Jeremiah 17:9] Look at how Jeremiah described the heart of mankind.

1) It is deceitful above all things
2) Beyond cure(and you came to God with a pure heart?)
3) Who can understand it?

We are made in the image of God, but that image was marred when Adam sinned. We now bear Gods image through Adam's fallen state. As Moses plainly wrote When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and named him Seth.

Now, what caused you to come to Christ with a pure heart?

Let’s break your points down:

1) It is deceitful above all things,

It remains deceitful even after salvation, Let’s see Calvin on Jeremiah 17:

“What is taught here depends on what is gone before; and therefore they ought to be read together. Many lay hold on these words and mutilate them without understanding the design of the Prophet. This is very absurd: for we ought first to see what the prophets had in view, and by what necessity or cause they were led to speak, what was their condition, and then the general doctrine that may be gafilered from their words. If we wist to read the prophets with benefit, we must first consider the reason why a thing is spoken, and then elicit a general doctrine. Thus we shall be able rightly to apply this passage to a common use, if we first understand why the Prophet said, that the heart of man was insidious. He wished, no doubt, to be more earnest with the Jews; for he saw that they had so much wantonness and obstinacy, that a simple and plain doctrine would not have penetrated into their hearts. The declaration, that they are accursed who trust in men, and that no blessedness can be expected except we rely on God, ought to have been sufficient to move them; but when he saw that there was no sufficient power in such a declaration, he added, “I see how it is, the heart is wicked and vicious; so ye think that you have so much craftiness, that ye can with impunity deride God and his ministers: I, says Jehovah, I will inquire and search; for it belongs to me to examine the hearts of men.”

We hence see that there is an implied reproof, when he says, that the heart is insidious and wicked; (175) as though he had said, “Ye think yourselves in this instance wise; is not God also wise?” Isaiah says ironically the same,

“Woe to them who go down to Egypt and make secret covenants, and who trust in horses, as though they could deceive me: ye are wise, I also have a portion of wisdom.” (Isaiah 31:1)

Notice especially the expression, “Ye are wise, etc.;” that is, “Ye are not alone wise; leave to me some portions of wisdom, so that I may be wise like yourselves.” So also in this place, “Ye are deceitful and insidious, and think that I can be deceived:” for astute men are ever pleased with their own counsels, and seek to deceive God with mere trumperies. “Ye are,” he says, “very cunning; but I, Jehovah, will search both your hearts and your reins.” I cannot finish the whole to-day. Deceitful the heart above every thing, And incurable it is,
who can know it?”

Very clear from Calvin in this case “that a simple and plain doctrine would not have penetrated into their hearts” he directed this to the Jewish people and for that matter to all who see themselves as wise, that they don’t need God and they therefore harden their hearts. As we see in Zechariah 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.

 

[Rippon]

I haven't checked the entire thread, but Alan Kurschner has said:
The term for "especially" is malista. George W. Knight 111 argues that this term here should be rendered 'that is,' thereby functioning as an explanation or furthur clarification of the preceding statement. The translation 'who is the Savior of all people, that is, of those who believe.' So this interpretation does not view, 'those who believe' as a subset of 'all people', instead, 'those who believe' identifies the 'all people.' (NIGTC, The Pastoral Epistles,203-4)

 

[revmwc]

Bro. mwc...

You're looking at the heart of man as that heart that was given to Adam pre-fall, yet post-fall, the bible says The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?[Jeremiah 17:9] Look at how Jeremiah described the heart of mankind.

1) It is deceitful above all things
2) Beyond cure(and you came to God with a pure heart?)
3) Who can understand it?

We are made in the image of God, but that image was marred when Adam sinned. We now bear Gods image through Adam's fallen state. As Moses plainly wrote When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and named him Seth.

Now, what caused you to come to Christ with a pure heart?

2) Beyond cure (and you came to God with a pure heart?)

Paul says we never lose that nature in us to sin, we see that in Romans 17:16-18, in our sarx which is translated flesh (Thayer’s/Strong’s = 3. The sinuous nature), we keep that nature in us for all of our physical life. Again we see Calvin on verse 18.”For I know, etc. He says that no good by nature dwelt in him. Then in me, means the same as though he had said, “So far as it regards myself.” In the first part he indeed arraigns himself as being wholly depraved, for he confesses that no good dwelt in him; and then he subjoins a modification, lest he should slight the grace of God which also dwelt in him, but was no part of his flesh. And here again he confirms the fact, that he did not speak of men in general, but of the faithful, who are divided into two parts — the relics of the flesh, and grace. For why was the modification made, except some part was exempt from depravity, and therefore not flesh? Under the term flesh, he ever includes all that human nature is, everything in man, except the sanctification of the Spirit. In the same manner, by the term spirit, which is commonly opposed to the flesh, he means that part of the soul which the Spirit of God has so re-formed, and purified from corruption, that God’s image shines forth in it. Then both terms, flesh as well as spirit, belong to the soul; but the latter to that part which is renewed, and the former to that which still retains its natural character.”

Here again we have an Old Sinful Nature translated as flesh. Yet we are to come to Christ with a Pure Heart that is a heart which is humble before Him, that is innately in us, that is how everyone must come to Christ, with a humble and contrite heart. Others will harden their hearts and reject God, they are on equal ground with those who believe, they have the same choice to make and yet we are told they hardened their heart.

1 Timothy 4: 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Hebrews 9: : 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



Who can understand it? God and God alone.

What caused me and all who come to Christ to have a pure heart that innate conscience built into us by God from the creation. That innate gift of volition from God for all to consciously chose to come to Him with a pure, humble and contrite heart. Those who refuse to come to Him in that way are condemned already because they have refused to belivie on him according to John 3:18, Paul in Romans 10:13 stated Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Believe and Call that is the Godpel and Revelation 22 says the Spirit and the Bride say come, we as believers call the unbeliever to come, but we cannot force them and the Spirit must convict them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let’s break your points down:

1) It is deceitful above all things,

It remains deceitful even after salvation, Let’s see Calvin on Jeremiah 17:

“What is taught here depends on what is gone before; and therefore they ought to be read together. Many lay hold on these words and mutilate them without understanding the design of the Prophet. This is very absurd: for we ought first to see what the prophets had in view, and by what necessity or cause they were led to speak, what was their condition, and then the general doctrine that may be gafilered from their words. If we wist to read the prophets with benefit, we must first consider the reason why a thing is spoken, and then elicit a general doctrine. Thus we shall be able rightly to apply this passage to a common use, if we first understand why the Prophet said, that the heart of man was insidious. He wished, no doubt, to be more earnest with the Jews; for he saw that they had so much wantonness and obstinacy, that a simple and plain doctrine would not have penetrated into their hearts. The declaration, that they are accursed who trust in men, and that no blessedness can be expected except we rely on God, ought to have been sufficient to move them; but when he saw that there was no sufficient power in such a declaration, he added, “I see how it is, the heart is wicked and vicious; so ye think that you have so much craftiness, that ye can with impunity deride God and his ministers: I, says Jehovah, I will inquire and search; for it belongs to me to examine the hearts of men.”

We hence see that there is an implied reproof, when he says, that the heart is insidious and wicked; (175) as though he had said, “Ye think yourselves in this instance wise; is not God also wise?” Isaiah says ironically the same,

“Woe to them who go down to Egypt and make secret covenants, and who trust in horses, as though they could deceive me: ye are wise, I also have a portion of wisdom.” (Isaiah 31:1)

Notice especially the expression, “Ye are wise, etc.;” that is, “Ye are not alone wise; leave to me some portions of wisdom, so that I may be wise like yourselves.” So also in this place, “Ye are deceitful and insidious, and think that I can be deceived:” for astute men are ever pleased with their own counsels, and seek to deceive God with mere trumperies. “Ye are,” he says, “very cunning; but I, Jehovah, will search both your hearts and your reins.” I cannot finish the whole to-day. Deceitful the heart above every thing, And incurable it is,
who can know it?”

Very clear from Calvin in this case “that a simple and plain doctrine would not have penetrated into their hearts” he directed this to the Jewish people and for that matter to all who see themselves as wise, that they don’t need God and they therefore harden their hearts. As we see in Zechariah 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.

Nothing of Calvin's words above support you. You are misunderstanding them, Monsieur.

Think about this a minute or two...a plain and simple message would not penetrate their heart. A plain and simple message. That is how wicked the unregenerates' hearts are. A plain and simple message would not penetrate their heart.

Now, how did a plain and simple message penetrate your pure heart? Better yet, what need does a pure(clean) heart need of a plain and simple message?

 

[revmwc]

Nothing of Calvin's words above support you. You are misunderstanding them, Monsieur.

Think about this a minute or two...a plain and simple message would not penetrate their heart. A plain and simple message. That is how wicked the unregenerates' hearts are. A plain and simple message would not penetrate their heart.

Now, how did a plain and simple message penetrate your pure heart? Better yet, what need does a pure(clean) heart need of a plain and simple message?

Same as it penetrated every believers heart by the conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have already stated!

 

[Internet Theologian]

2) Beyond cure (and you came to God with a pure heart?)
.

This is unfair and untrue. You stated, when asked why you came to God, Matthew 5:8 as your answer. That you did so because your heart was pure was the indication. So it appears you are one who believes you did it because of the purity of your own heart.

I've not seen you deny this that you've claimed. You've been asked to do so several times.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Same as it penetrated every believers heart by the conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have already stated!

Good good!!

Now, why did it penetrate your heart and not others who heard the same message? I am being honest here, and not badgering you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is unfair and untrue. You stated, when asked why you came to God, Matthew 5:8 as your answer. That you did so because your heart was pure was the indication. So it appears you are one who believes you did it because of the purity of your own heart.

I've not seen you deny this that you've claimed. You've been asked to do so several times.

Actually, Brother, that was my question to him. He didn't put quotes around it, so it appears to be his. But that was my question to him.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Actually, Brother, that was my question to him. He didn't put quotes around it, so it appears to be his. But that was my question to him.

my bad!

I would still like an answer to why he claims he came to God because his heart was pure.

 

[SovereignGrace]

my bad!

I would still like an answer to why he claims he came to God because his heart was pure.

Until he realizes the change of heart has ALREADY happened and that is what causes one to run to Christ, he'll never grasp it.

Verses such as Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, and Colossians 2:11 confirm a work of the heart wrought by God is what causes one to believe. We had a new heart when we came to Him, but He was the One who worked it anew...anew to love Him.

The Doctrines of Grace link this unbreakable chain of salvation so beautifully.

 

[revmwc]

Good good!!

Now, why did it penetrate your heart and not others who heard the same message? I am being honest here, and not badgering you.

Because I hadn't hardened my heart as some others do.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Because I hadn't hardened my heart as some others do.

How did you not harden it as much? How do you know this? The heart is desparately wicked, beyond cure and who can know it? And you know your heart wasn't as hard as others? Srsly?

So again, how do you know that your heart was not as hard?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm noticing quite a few 'I' in your posts, Bro. rwc.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Because I hadn't hardened my heart as some others do.

So it isn't Soli Deo Gloria, but Soli Huminis Gloria?

The first two words of your post portend the error to which you hold my friend!

 

[revmwc]

How did you not harden it as much? How do you know this? The heart is desparately wicked, beyond cure and who can know it? And you know your heart wasn't as hard as others? Srsly?

So again, how do you know that your heart was not as hard?

The same question was asked 1 Samuel 6:6

 

[SovereignGrace]

The same question was asked 1 Samuel 6:6

But how do you know your heart wasn't harder than your neighbors? What biblical scale determines which person's heart is harder and which one is softer?

You keep saying your heart wasn't as hard as others. How do you know?

 

[TCassidy]

The same question was asked 1 Samuel 6:6

Why haven't you answered it? You have been asked the same question over and over and over again. But you can't come up with an answer you are will to stand by.

Why not just come right out and say what every one of your answers has implied: You are better than your lost neighbor.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Ah, I love relentless tenacity and adherence to the truth!!!! Jude 1:3.

Is it Soli Deo Gloria, or is it Soli Huminis Gloria? For the record it cannot be both, because if there is a human element to salvation, then it is not 100% God at all. Ever. Therefore it is either Sola Deo, or Sola Huminis. The latter will not tend to eternal life.