Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

[DHK]

So is in the opinion of most of the Baptist members of this board that the Southern Baptists have fallen into doctrinal error?

If so, what errors have they adopted?

finds scriptural support for the proposition that Mary is the new Eve.

In spite of this quote, there is no scriptural support that Mary is the "new Eve." That simply is an unbiblical assertion.

 

[annsni]

So is in the opinion of most of the Baptist members of this board that the Southern Baptists have fallen into doctrinal error?

If so, what errors have they adopted?

One man's beliefs doesn't an entire group's beliefs make.

 

[Eliyahu]

The red is the first indication I've seen from anyone that yes, we are indeed joined with Heavenly Jerusalem, not separate from them. We are one with them in the body of Christ.

I find such a clue in this. When Christians approach God, it's not as a fearful mountain. Nor is it God alone.

Paul says rather that we have come to:

1) Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jeruesalem, the city of the living God
2) thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly
3) to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven
4) God, the judge of all men,
5) the spirits of righteous men made perfect
6) Jesus the mediator of a new covenant
7) the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel

So, how do you "come to" "The spirits of righteous men made perfect", as Paul says we do? My answer is we come to them the same way we come to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, which is in prayer. Through prayer, we come to the city of the living God.

1. Where is the statement in he Bible Scriptures that we should pray to Mary?

2. Where is the statement in the Bible that we should pray to the assembly of the firstborn ?

Read the followings:

Re 19:
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Re :22
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Do you read the above?

You may say that you are not worshipping the dead believers but pray to them or oray with them.

However, if they see you praying to them, they would say the same thing to you, saying I am not worthy to receive your prayers, and therefore please pray directly to God, the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

Have you ever received the answer froom God for your prayers?

What did He say to your prayers?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Mary is not the new Eve.

Nor is it correct to say Mary knew Eve.

 

[Eliyahu]

If Mary is the new Eve, did Mary bring the sins into the world again as Eve did?

 

[mrtumnus]

1. Where is the statement in he Bible Scriptures that we should pray to Mary?

2. Where is the statement in the Bible that we should pray to the assembly of the firstborn ?

Read the followings:

Re 19:
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Re :22
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Do you read the above?

You may say that you are not worshipping the dead believers but pray to them or oray with them.

However, if they see you praying to them, they would say the same thing to you, saying I am not worthy to receive your prayers, and therefore please pray directly to God, the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

Have you ever received the answer froom God for your prayers?

What did He say to your prayers?

Yes, I've received the answer to prayers. Sometimes the answer has been quite unexpected.

I've never worshipped a saint. You conclude I have because I believe they can hear me, and pray for me. You are certainly entitled to that opinion. However, I have to conclude then that it would also be your opinion that those early Christians hiding in the catacombs were commiting idolatry by requesting Peter and Paul to pray for them?

 

[mrtumnus]

If Mary is the new Eve, did Mary bring the sins into the world again as Eve did?

Well, if Christ is the new Adam, what would you conclude from that?

 

[mrtumnus]

One man's beliefs doesn't an entire group's beliefs make.

That is true, but it does seem that like this someone who is in a position that wouldn't be too far from the mainstream thought. If he was, why would he have that position?

 

[DHK]

Yes, I've received the answer to prayers. Sometimes the answer has been quite unexpected.

I've never worshipped a saint. You conclude I have because I believe they can hear me, and pray for me. You are certainly entitled to that opinion. However, I have to conclude then that it would also be your opinion that those early Christians hiding in the catacombs were commiting idolatry by requesting Peter and Paul to pray for them?

The Bible says about heaven that there will be no more pain, no more sorrow and all tears shall be wiped away.
If that be true: then how could those that are in heaven possibly see all the tragedy of what is going on down on earth--their sons and daughters dying in war, being savagely raped, grandchildren being aborted, some of their own relatives turning into sexual predators, etc. Is that the heaven you envision? Would there be joy in heaven if the saints in heaven were continuously looking down on all the tragedy of this earth especially as it is presently affecting their own loved ones? That is not my kind of heaven.

 

[mrtumnus]

The Bible says about heaven that there will be no more pain, no more sorrow and all tears shall be wiped away.
If that be true: then how could those that are in heaven possibly see all the tragedy of what is going on down on earth--their sons and daughters dying in war, being savagely raped, grandchildren being aborted, some of their own relatives turning into sexual predators, etc. Is that the heaven you envision? Would there be joy in heaven if the saints in heaven were continuously looking down on all the tragedy of this earth especially as it is presently affecting their own loved ones? That is not my kind of heaven.

Revelation 21:4?

 

[Zenas]

And do I care? Peter Ruckman graduated from BJU, was a supposed Baptist also, but I really don't care for much of his teachings or his writings for that matter. Those who know of him simply call his belief system as "Ruckmanism."

I would hesitate to put Peter Ruckman and his strange conspiracy theories in the same category with the president of the flagship seminary of the largest non-Catholic denomination in the United States.

 

[Eliyahu]

Well, if Christ is the new Adam, what would you conclude from that?

If Christ is the new Adam, how come Mary who was born before Jesus become the new Eve?

Do you mean Mary has become the wife of Jesus Christ?

 

[Eliyahu]

Yes, I've received the answer to prayers. Sometimes the answer has been quite unexpected.

I've never worshipped a saint. You conclude I have because I believe they can hear me, and pray for me. You are certainly entitled to that opinion. However, I have to conclude then that it would also be your opinion that those early Christians hiding in the catacombs were commiting idolatry by requesting Peter and Paul to pray for them?

1. How do you know the graffiti in the Catacombs were written before the Catholicism ?

2. Didn't the saints tell you that you should pray directly to God the Father as written in the Bible? If not, the answers may not be from them, are they?

 

[Zenas]

Linda64 said:

In that case, Dr. Mohler is a "double-minded" man!

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Not so! Although regarding Mary as the new Eve is a well established Catholic belief, it is not a uniquely Catholic belief. It is highly inferable from the Bible, just as the doctrine of the Trinity is inferable from the Bible. Neither is expressly stated. Linda64 also said:

What is a the seminary president and professing Christian doing on the Larry King Live show?

Because he got invited, something that will never happen to you or me. You seem to think it is a sin to appear on a worldly TV show. Yet we are told to be in the world but not of it. I thank God that we have Christians in this country with enough credibility to get invited to go on Larry King. If I recall correctly, he was on a panel with the president of a Catholic university and a jewish scholar. I don't recall the topic, but the three guests got along famously. Near the end of the program, Larry King said something to Mohler about Baptists and Catholics getting closer, or words to that effect. Mohler bristled and made his "pope teaches a false gospel" statement.

 

[mrtumnus]

1. How do you know the graffiti in the Catacombs were written before the Catholicism ?

2. Didn't the saints tell you that you should pray directly to God the Father as written in the Bible? If not, the answers may not be from them, are they?

The catacombs were lost for hundreds of years. Those writings were either written in the first couple of centuries, or not until hundreds of years later. My assumption would be that archeologists would be able to tell if they were actually written after they were re-discovered, instead of prior to their being lost.

Regarding #2, saints do not answer prayers. They hear prayers, and join with you in prayer. They have no ability to 'answer' prayers.

I'm assuming you're implying that the answers are from some demonic force. There are two problems with that from my perspective. The first is the fruits are indeed grace-filled. Secondly, I was not aware that denoms could remain in the presence of the name of Jesus. As I've said before, you folks seem to view that it's an either/or. You either pray to God, or you re-focus your prayer to a saint. The correct perception would be that one petitions a saint to join with you in prayer to God.

 

[mrtumnus]

If Christ is the new Adam, how come Mary who was born before Jesus become the new Eve?

Do you mean Mary has become the wife of Jesus Christ?

No, I don't mean that at all. I simply meant that it made no sense to conclude that Mary brought sin into the world simply because she was called the new Eve.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Mary is called the new Eve only by those who want to cast doubt on God's Word.

 

[DHK]

I would hesitate to put Peter Ruckman and his strange conspiracy theories in the same category with the president of the flagship seminary of the largest non-Catholic denomination in the United States.

Why? They are both Baptist. They are both leaders in their respective movements. They both have made ludicrous statements that cannot be supported by God's Word. I don't agree with either one's associations. I am an IFB, which means I am independent from the SBC and all other denominations or such associations. My beliefs are based solely on the Word of God.
Why should I be bound to a man's teaching?

 

[DHK]

Linda64 said: Not so! Although regarding Mary as the new Eve is a well established Catholic belief, it is not a uniquely Catholic belief. It is highly inferable from the Bible, just as the doctrine of the Trinity is inferable from the Bible. Neither is expressly stated.

This is the lamest argument that is so often repeated it becomes ad nauseum. OK Zenas: theology, Christology, Bibliology, theophany, soteriology, rapture, and hundreds of other theological terms are not found in the Bible. Do you believe in the study of God and His Word: Yes or No? If Yes, then you believe in theology--the study of God--but your reaosning tells me you don't because "theology isn't found in the Bible This is the most inane reasoning I have come across.

The trinity is clearly taught in the Bible:
There is only one God: Isaiah 43:10 and all throughout ch.44.
Christ is God: John 1:1, 14; 10:27-30; 1John 5:7
The Holy Spirit is God Acts 5:1-4
The Baptism of Jesus in Mat.3 shows the trinity.
All throughout the Bible there are various places that demonstrate the trinity--three persons and yet one God. The name of the theological concept being taught (trinity) is of no consequence at all.
But the concept or teaching that Mary is the new Eve is heresy and contradicts all Biblical teaching. There is not an ounce of Scriptural evidence for this heretical teaching whatsoever. If there were someone would produce it.

Linda64 also said:
"Because he got invited, something that will never happen to you or me. You seem to think it is a sin to appear on a worldly TV show."

Yet we are told to be in the world but not of it. I thank God that we have Christians in this country with enough credibility to get invited to go on Larry King. If I recall correctly, he was on a panel with the president of a Catholic university and a jewish scholar. I don't recall the topic, but the three guests got along famously. Near the end of the program, Larry King said something to Mohler about Baptists and Catholics getting closer, or words to that effect. Mohler bristled and made his "pope teaches a false gospel" statement.

Then why would Mohler be speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Why would he espouse Catholic theology on one hand (belief that Mary is the new Eve), and claim, on the other hand, that the Pope teaches a false gospel. Something doesn't sit right.

 

[Zenas]

Why? They are both Baptist. They are both leaders in their respective movements. They both have made ludicrous statements that cannot be supported by God's Word.

Yeah but Ruckman doesn't get invited to go on Lary King. :laugh: