Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

[mrtumnus]

You may be talking about the following verses, but we never find any clue that the True believers in the Early Churches prayed along with the spirits of the dead believers.

Heb 12:
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


We have joined the Assembly of the Believers, Heavenly Jerusalem, but it doesn't mean that we are praying with the spirits of the dead believers.

Where do you find such clue?

The red is the first indication I've seen from anyone that yes, we are indeed joined with Heavenly Jerusalem, not separate from them. We are one with them in the body of Christ.

I find such a clue in this. When Christians approach God, it's not as a fearful mountain. Nor is it God alone.

Paul says rather that we have come to:

1) Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jeruesalem, the city of the living God
2) thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly
3) to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven
4) God, the judge of all men,
5) the spirits of righteous men made perfect
6) Jesus the mediator of a new covenant
7) the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel

So, how do you "come to" "The spirits of righteous men made perfect", as Paul says we do? My answer is we come to them the same way we come to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, which is in prayer. Through prayer, we come to the city of the living God.

 

[mrtumnus]

Yes, the Holy Spirit, the Angels are assisting us in our prayers. However, do you find any dead Believers are praying for you ?

Problem is this. When you said you are praying with the spirits of the dead believers, you need their consent and amen and a certain communication with them. Do you hear them? Without knowing whether the dead are praying with you or not, how can you say that you are praying with the dead? When we pray directly to God, we get the answers from God because He is alive and quick to answer to us.

However, what do you hear from the dead? Have you ever prayed with Paul the Apostle? What did he say to you ? Have you ever prayed to Mary? What did she say to you ?

When you call up a friend on the phone and ask them to pray for you and they agree, do you have to hear their prayer?

I do not have to hear them communicate with me to know they are praying for me. They are the spirits of righteous men made perfect, living in the heavenly Jerusalem, to which I am joined. Paul tells me that I have 'come to them', in the same breath he tells me I have come to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant.

What more do I need?

To boot, I believe there are several scriptures that speak to the power of the prayer of a righteous man. Since none are more righteous than these, why would I dream of not acknowledging their role in building up the body of Christ with their prayers, specifically, me?

 

[annsni]

Since you have come up with all sorts of wonderful ideas about this - without the backing of Scripture saying that those who have passed on can hear our prayers, it's just not going to fly. If those who are in heaven are to be prayed to, God would have told us so and He did not. As a matter of fact, we are taught to only pray to the Father. He is the only one worthy of prayer which is a form of worship.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Since you have come up with all sorts of wonderful ideas about this - without the backing of Scripture saying that those who have passed on can hear our prayers, it's just not going to fly. If those who are in heaven are to be prayed to, God would have told us so and He did not. As a matter of fact, we are taught to only pray to the Father. He is the only one worthy of prayer which is a form of worship.

Amen, annsni!

 

[mrtumnus]

Since you have come up with all sorts of wonderful ideas about this - without the backing of Scripture saying that those who have passed on can hear our prayers, it's just not going to fly. If those who are in heaven are to be prayed to, God would have told us so and He did not. As a matter of fact, we are taught to only pray to the Father. He is the only one worthy of prayer which is a form of worship.

I haven't come up with any ideas; I have read the Scripture and taken it by faith.

Paul says that we come "to the spirits of righteous men made perfect". Your conclusion is there is no evidence that they can hear us. So you conclude that even though Paul says that we come to them, that's no reason to think they have any awareness of us? I would ask if they truly are not aware of us, then how can Paul believe we come to them?

Prayer may certainly be a form of worship. To conclude that prayer by definition can only be a form of worship is incorrect.

Pray
transitive verb
1 : entreat implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

To request, or plea. To make a request in a humble manner. These are forms of prayer that are not worship.

For example, we are shown in 1 Kings (chapter 2) that Bathsheba approaches King Solomon with a request. The newer translations use the word 'request'. In the KJV however, she says "I pray thee" to her son. This is an example of prayer that is not seen as worship, but rather a humble request or plea.

 

[annsni]

I haven't come up with any ideas; I have read the Scripture and taken it by faith.

Paul says that we come "to the spirits of righteous men made perfect". Your conclusion is there is no evidence that they can hear us. So you conclude that even though Paul says that we come to them, that's no reason to think they have any awareness of us? I would ask if they truly are not aware of us, then how can Paul believe we come to them?

Prayer may certainly be a form of worship. To conclude that prayer by definition can only be a form of worship is incorrect.

Pray
transitive verb
1 : entreat implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

To request, or plea. To make a request in a humble manner. These are forms of prayer that are not worship.

For example, we are shown in 1 Kings (chapter 2) that Bathsheba approaches King Solomon with a request. The newer translations use the word 'request'. In the KJV however, she says "I pray thee" to her son. This is an example of prayer that is not seen as worship, but rather a humble request or plea.

However, this is not the context we are speaking of. We are speaking of prayer as in speaking to someone who is NOT present with us here right now. BIG difference.

We do not come to speak with those who have passed away but we join in the family of God along with them. If you choose to read that passage as permission to pray to those other than God, then you are ignoring all other Scripture that has already been shown to you. I'm sorry you do not accept it.

 

[mrtumnus]

However, this is not the context we are speaking of. We are speaking of prayer as in speaking to someone who is NOT present with us here right now. BIG difference.

We do not come to speak with those who have passed away but we join in the family of God along with them. If you choose to read that passage as permission to pray to those other than God, then you are ignoring all other Scripture that has already been shown to you. I'm sorry you do not accept it.

My conclusion has come to be that you guys really do not believe that we have joined them in the family of God (for what family is not aware of each other?) nor do you believe that we truly have come to the heavenly Jerusalem where they reside, at least not in the same way I do. For if you did believe this, I cannot see how you would consider them to be among the dead, instead of the living.

I understand that would just be my interpretation of that, and I mean no offense. It does seem we have reached an impasse though, and I appreciate all the input to try to understand how you view this. I do wish you all peace beyond all understanding.

 

[Zenas]

But mark this Mary is never referenced as the mother of God, nor is ever referenced as a type of Eve. She isn't a type of Eve. There is no NT reference to refer to her as such, no Biblical evidence to make that inference. It is pure speculation, and unbiblical speculation at that.
I hope that helps.

DHK, I know you're not a Southern Baptist but you may find it of interest that Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, finds scriptural support for the proposition that Mary is the new Eve. He states this emphatically in a chapel message he gave at SBTS on 10/10/2007. If you're not familiar with Dr. Mohler, he is one of the most influential theologians of our time, a five point Calvinist, and head of perhaps the largest seminary in the United States. He is also a very gifted preacher. You can listen to this and other of his sermons on his website, www.albertmohler.com.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Stating 'Mary is the new Eve' is just as ridiculous as saying ''Golf balls are replacing footballs on the gridiron'.

Both are untrue statements.

 

[Linda64]

DHK, I know you're not a Southern Baptist but you may find it of interest that Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, finds scriptural support for the proposition that Mary is the new Eve. He states this emphatically in a chapel message he gave at SBTS on 10/10/2007. If you're not familiar with Dr. Mohler, he is one of the most influential theologians of our time, a five point Calvinist, and head of perhaps the largest seminary in the United States. He is also a very gifted preacher. You can listen to this and other of his sermons on his website, www.albertmohler.com.

Just because R. Albert Mohler, Jr. or anybody else for that matter, claims to find scriptural support for heretical teachings (that Mary is the new Eve), doesn't mean that they are correct. This is just another heretical Roman Catholic teaching. Roman Catholicism is permeating the Southern Baptist Convention, so it is no surprise that its leaders (R. Albert Mohler Jr.) are also teaching this heresy.

At his general audience in St. Peter's Square on April 9, Pope John Paul II said that Mary uniquely collaborated in the work of salvation. According to the Vatican Information Service, April 9, 1997, the pope stated that 'in union with Christ and yielding to Him, She collaborated to obtain the grace of salvation for all humanity."

He also said: "Having created man 'male and female,' in the Redemption too, the Lord wanted to put the New Eve next to the New Adam. ... Mary, the New Eve, thus becomes the perfect icon of the Church. She, in the divine plan, represents under the Cross redeemed humanity, which, needy of salvation, is made capable of offering a contribution to the development of the saving work."

This is nonsense, of course. The Bible nowhere says that Mary collaborated in salvation. The Bible nowhere says that Mary is the New Eve. To the contrary, the Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5) and that he "BY HIMSELF purged our sins" (Heb. 1:3). Christ had absolutely no help in obtaining our salvation. Mary was a sinner and was saved in the same way that all sinners are saved -- by placing her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. She is not the Mother of God or the Queen of Heaven. The Apostles did not exalt Mary nor did they teach us to pray to her. She cannot answer prayer nor assist anyone in their needs, neither spiritually or physically.

POPE SAYS MARY "COLLABORATED" IN THE WORK OF SALVATION

 

[D28guy]

Mrtumnus,

Annsi said...

Since you have come up with all sorts of wonderful ideas about this - without the backing of Scripture saying that those who have passed on can hear our prayers, it's just not going to fly. If those who are in heaven are to be prayed to, God would have told us so and He did not. As a matter of fact, we are taught to only pray to the Father. He is the only one worthy of prayer which is a form of worship."

And you responded...

"I haven't come up with any ideas; I have read the Scripture and taken it by faith.

Paul says that we come "to the spirits of righteous men made perfect".

True. But he does not say that we can pray to/worship them.

"Your conclusion is there is no evidence that they can hear us."

Thats correct. They are not God. They can not hear us.

"So you conclude that even though Paul says that we come to them, that's no reason to think they have any awareness of us?"

Exactly.

"I would ask if they truly are not aware of us, then how can Paul believe we come to them?"

Because as born again Christians we are part of the same "body" as they are. The body of Christ. But we are still HERE, on earth....while they are now THERE, in spirit form in Heaven. The only person we are to attempt to contact in Heaven is Almighty God. Nobody else can hear us and help us. Not our brothers and sisters in heaven, and not Mary.

"Prayer may certainly be a form of worship. To conclude that prayer by definition can only be a form of worship is incorrect.

But it without a doubt IS a form of worship, if the prayer is being directed to an entity in Heaven. It is only God we are to seek for help. If we substitute anyone else for God, and contact them 1st, we have commited idolatry.

"Pray
transitive verb
1 : entreat implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

To request, or plea. To make a request in a humble manner. These are forms of prayer that are not worship."

Yes, it is...if the one someone is praying to is in heaven. And it is idolatry if the person is anyone other than Almighty God.

"For example, we are shown in 1 Kings (chapter 2) that Bathsheba approaches King Solomon with a request. The newer translations use the word 'request'. In the KJV however, she says "I pray thee" to her son. This is an example of prayer that is not seen as worship, but rather a humble request or plea."

King Solomon was not in Heaven at that time.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[mrtumnus]

Just because R. Albert Mohler, Jr. or anybody else for that matter, claims to find scriptural support for heretical teachings (that Mary is the new Eve), doesn't mean that they are correct. This is just another heretical Roman Catholic teaching. Roman Catholicism is permeating the Southern Baptist Convention, so it is no surprise that its leaders (R. Albert Mohler Jr.) are also teaching this heresy.

Quote:
At his general audience in St. Peter's Square on April 9, Pope John Paul II said that Mary uniquely collaborated in the work of salvation. According to the Vatican Information Service, April 9, 1997, the pope stated that 'in union with Christ and yielding to Him, She collaborated to obtain the grace of salvation for all humanity."

He also said: "Having created man 'male and female,' in the Redemption too, the Lord wanted to put the New Eve next to the New Adam. ... Mary, the New Eve, thus becomes the perfect icon of the Church. She, in the divine plan, represents under the Cross redeemed humanity, which, needy of salvation, is made capable of offering a contribution to the development of the saving work."

This is nonsense, of course. The Bible nowhere says that Mary collaborated in salvation. The Bible nowhere says that Mary is the New Eve. To the contrary, the Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5) and that he "BY HIMSELF purged our sins" (Heb. 1:3). Christ had absolutely no help in obtaining our salvation. Mary was a sinner and was saved in the same way that all sinners are saved -- by placing her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. She is not the Mother of God or the Queen of Heaven. The Apostles did not exalt Mary nor did they teach us to pray to her. She cannot answer prayer nor assist anyone in their needs, neither spiritually or physically.

POPE SAYS MARY "COLLABORATED" IN THE WORK OF SALVATION

While you certainly may disagree, please approach this with a correct understanding of what is meant by this.

Catholic theology is that we all collaborate in the work of salvation. Mary is seen as the model of this, but it is not a 'unique' role she possesses.

For example, if you know someone who is not saved, and you witness to them (which appears to be unfruitful), and then you begin praying for them, and do this for some period of time, and then they accept Christ, you have collaborated with Christ in the work of salvation.

The question becomes -- did your witness and prayer make a difference in whether or not the person ultimately was saved? If you believe it does not, then why do it? If you believe it does, then you must also believe that because of your efforts, this person is now saved. This is not a replacement of the work Jesus accomplished for their salvation. Without his work, there is nothing to 'collaborate' with, and all is lost.

The Bible calls us 'fellow workers' with God. This does not mean we are equal of course. It does mean we work alongside him, and collaborate with him. Paul also says that "Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."

We are called to suffer with Christ, for the sake of his church. We are called to be 'fellow workers' with God. This is 'collaborating' with Him for the salvation of men.

 

[annsni]

Amen Mike - Thank you for saying what I was thinking last night.

Shortly after my mother died (she was my adoptive mother who adopted me as an infant), I went to visit her sister in California. While I was there, my aunt asked me if I wanted to know more about my background and I said "yes". She told me that I have a full blood brother - a boy who was born to my birth mother and birth father 3 years after I was born. They never told my adoptive mother because she and my dad were having marriage problems.

Now, did I have a brother before I knew about him? Yes. Do I have a brother now? Yes. Have I ever met him, know anything about him or know where he lives? No. I know nothing about him other than the fact that he existed about 39 years ago.

Do we know each time another person believes in Jesus and is brought into God's family? Are we aware of them joining the family? According to your thinking, mrtumnus, because they're joining the family, we should all be aware of them as they accept Christ! But we are not aware because we can't know all things, see all things or hear all things. It is the same with the saints who have gone before us. We joined them in the body of Christ, but they are not our mediators, are not able to hear our prayers and are not able to know all about us. However, we join in with them in being citizens of the Kingdom of God and one day WILL be able to see them, speak with them and worship our almighty God alongside them one day.

 

[mrtumnus]

Amen Mike - Thank you for saying what I was thinking last night.

Shortly after my mother died (she was my adoptive mother who adopted me as an infant), I went to visit her sister in California. While I was there, my aunt asked me if I wanted to know more about my background and I said "yes". She told me that I have a full blood brother - a boy who was born to my birth mother and birth father 3 years after I was born. They never told my adoptive mother because she and my dad were having marriage problems.

Now, did I have a brother before I knew about him? Yes. Do I have a brother now? Yes. Have I ever met him, know anything about him or know where he lives? No. I know nothing about him other than the fact that he existed about 39 years ago.

Do we know each time another person believes in Jesus and is brought into God's family? Are we aware of them joining the family? According to your thinking, mrtumnus, because they're joining the family, we should all be aware of them as they accept Christ! But we are not aware because we can't know all things, see all things or hear all things. It is the same with the saints who have gone before us. We joined them in the body of Christ, but they are not our mediators, are not able to hear our prayers and are not able to know all about us. However, we join in with them in being citizens of the Kingdom of God and one day WILL be able to see them, speak with them and worship our almighty God alongside them one day.

I understand and appreciate your concerns Ann.

According to my way of thinking, it would be true that I don't believe that in heaven we would have the same limitations as a spirit as we do bound to the earth and a physical body. We're not limited to what two 'ears' can hear. However, I think we all believe we will be able to hear without ears, which would be impossible on earth. After all, what would heaven be without being able to hear the angels sing? Yet, we must be able to do this without ears.

So I don't think the requirements for them to be able to hear us would be limited by those we have in physical bodies. I also don't think they would have to be 'omni-present'. I do believe the spiritual gifts in heaven will exceed those on earth, and be different.

I understand you believe this is an assumption on my part. I would also say that to believe the spirits in heaven are limited in the same ways as those on earth in also an assumption.

I believe someone asked earlier when the practice of praying to saints came into existence? To my knowledge, the earliest recording of this is in the catacombs where the early persecuted Christians were hiding. There are supposed to be hundreds writings in Latin, Greek and Aramaic that say "Peter and Paul, pray for us” and "Peter and Paul, pray for victory.”

 

[Zenas]

Just because R. Albert Mohler, Jr. or anybody else for that matter, claims to find scriptural support for heretical teachings (that Mary is the new Eve), doesn't mean that they are correct. This is just another heretical Roman Catholic teaching. Roman Catholicism is permeating the Southern Baptist Convention, so it is no surprise that its leaders (R. Albert Mohler Jr.) are also teaching this heresy.

You mean like when Dr. Mohler was on Larry King about four years ago and declared, "The Pope [referring to John Paul II] teaches a false gospel!"?

 

[DHK]

DHK, I know you're not a Southern Baptist but you may find it of interest that Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, finds scriptural support for the proposition that Mary is the new Eve. He states this emphatically in a chapel message he gave at SBTS on 10/10/2007. If you're not familiar with Dr. Mohler, he is one of the most influential theologians of our time, a five point Calvinist, and head of perhaps the largest seminary in the United States. He is also a very gifted preacher. You can listen to this and other of his sermons on his website, www.albertmohler.com.

And do I care? Peter Ruckman graduated from BJU, was a supposed Baptist also, but I really don't care for much of his teachings or his writings for that matter. Those who know of him simply call his belief system as "Ruckmanism."

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DHK, surely you aren't saying Donald Duck is not an alien??!!!!!:laugh:

(Everyone knows it is Petunia Pig that is an alien anyway.):wavey:

 

[Linda64]

You mean like when Dr. Mohler was on Larry King about four years ago and declared, "The Pope [referring to John Paul II] teaches a false gospel!"?

In that case, Dr. Mohler is a "double-minded" man!

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

What is a the seminary president and professing Christian doing on the Larry King Live show? Preaching the gospel??????? I think not!!

 

[Frogman]

Eve is the mother of us all.

Mary is not. The church itself is not.

No comparison.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[mrtumnus]

So is in the opinion of most of the Baptist members of this board that the Southern Baptists have fallen into doctrinal error?

If so, what errors have they adopted?