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Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

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D28guy

New Member
Annsni,

I work night shift. Not 3rd, but 2nd. So, I get home from work at around 1:00 am or so and am usually up until around 5 to 6AM. I then sleep until about noon or 1PM

The wee hours of the night...1:00AM to about 6 AM...are my favorite hours of the day. I love those hours. Its a wonderful time to be up and at leisure. And Walmart is open all night if I need to shop.

Thats why I'm up! :D

Mike
 

D28guy

New Member
DHK said...

"I don't know about her (posting); but this one thing I do know--she won't be posting any more."

And annsi said...

"I just saw that. I pray that she's learned something and will open her Bible rather than the catechism."

Saw what? What happened?

Mike
 
D2,

ann saw that GW was banned. Pray what we shared with her will be enough to cause her to study for herself instead of believing lies told by the Catholic Church.
 

D28guy

New Member
SFIC,

"ann saw that GW was banned."

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I too hope that we at least planted some seeds that someone else will water, and then come to fruition someday.

What was she banned for?

Mike
 
not sure.

I am sure the Mods and Administrators had good reason. Probably because she never changed her profile to reflect a Church and the way she bashed those who did not pray to Mary.
 

mrtumnus

New Member
Joe said:
The dead are dead right now. They are rotting in their graves, they know nothing. They are dead, not "alive in Christ" There is no biblical support for this false belief.


Baptists believe the dead are in their graves at the moment and the living are living. It is not time to ascend into heaven yet. Everyone in this forum, to my knowledge, everyone on this message board, regardless of their faith, believes this. It is not disputable.
Forgive me for back-tracking a little bit, but I am still confused about this.

There seems to have been a post or two that indicate this is indeed disputable among baptists. I would love to see a poll, but don't know how to set one up.

My experience with baptists (mostly the southern variety) would certainly disagree with this. I am curious as to what the numbers would be?
 

mrtumnus

New Member
DHK said:
Jesus performed miracles that never can be duplicated. They demonstrated his deity. They were miracles like raising Lazarus from the dead, walking on water, feeding of the 5,000, the miraculous catch of fish, etc.

The Apostles were able to heal the sick, give sight to the blind, cast out demons, and occasionally raise the dead. They also had the power to do miracles. These miracles were signs given to them to verify that they were indeed true Apostles of Christ, and that their message was the true message of Christ. Here is what the Bible says:

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

"By them that heard him" is a direct reference to the Apostles. Signs and wonders, miracles and the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given specifically to the Apostles as a sign that they were the true Apostles and that their message was the true message from God.
Primarily it was to convince the Jews. Especially the gift of tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I will speak unto "this people" which is Israel. He quotes out the law, specifically Isaiah 28. The "wherefore" of verse 22 connects the two versese together. Tongues are a sign to unbelieving Jews. That is the context. It is a sign to the unbelieving Jews of the first century by the Apostles to whom they were given.
In the three instances of speaking of tongues given in the book of Acts--chapters 2, 10, and 19, all three of these events had these conditions present.

History tells us that by the end of the first century tongues had ceased. They had served its purpose. The Jews had rejected the signs and miracles, and tongues in particular, and judgment came upon them in the form of Titus destroying Jerusalem and in particular their Temple. And Israel was thus scattered. The prophecy in Isaiah 28 had been fulfilled.
1Cor. 13:8 tells us that tongues, prophecy, and (revelatory) knowledge would cease, and they did.

Now:
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God spoke in different ways in OT times to His people--visions, audibly, dreams, theophanies, etc.
Now, in these last days God speaks to His people through His Son. Who is that? He speaks to us through His Word which reveals to us His Son. Everything that we need to know about Jesus Christ is contained in the NT, which was written down by eyewitnesses of the Lord.
The Apostles are dead; but the Word of God lives on forever, especially the words of our Lord, and his apostles.
Thank you for your response DHK. I have added this to my list of scriptures to work through when I have a moment.
 

mrtumnus

New Member
Eliyahu said:
7. Prayer to Mary

Can she accept the prayers from 1.3 billion people all over the world, for 2000 years?

Why couldn't she understand what Jesus was telling her ( Luke 2:50)?

Is Mary Omni-present? She must be busy then ! Can she understand the prayers from various countries in hundreds of languages? Mary must listen to all the prayers from all over the world, from 1.3 Billion Roman Catholics. Only God can be OMnipresent to listen to the prayers from all over the world, for 2000 years !

When did the capacity of Mary explode such? Only in the minds of the goddess worshippers ! Devout goddess worshippers !
I have a question regarding the idea that Mary must be omni-present in order to hear multitudes of prayers. (I think I've also seen omniscient used in the same lines).

Certainly Mary is not omni-present nor omniscient. I am not sure I would agree that being able to hear the prayers of multitudes would require these qualities however.

It seems to me that we are putting physical, human limitations on a spirit. Those of us who are in need of physical attributes to hear (2 ears) certainly have limitations in this area. But it's not clear to me that these types of limitations would occur in a pure spirit.

Nonetheless, if this is true, then how was Rachel able to be aware of the slaughering of the innocents by Herod? Matthew 2:17-18 says that "Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 'A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.'"

Also, when you look back at the prophecy in Jeremiah, the Lord says "Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded," declares the Lord. "They will return from the land of the enemy. So there is hope for your future," declares the Lord. "Your children will return to their own land. "

This seems to be an example of someone who is dead (Rachel) very aware of something that is happening to a large group of people (weren't there around 2000 innocent children slaughtered?), and her 'work' of intercession with the Lord is promised to be rewarded.
 
In Jeremiah 31, Rahel was mournful and lamented for her children who were taken into captivity.

In Matthew, Rachel is only a representation of every woman who had her male child age 2 and under slain. Not Jacob's wife herself.
 

Frogman

<img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
mrtumnus said:
Is soul sleep a Baptist belief anybody? Do Baptists believe that when we die we aren't judged immediately for heaven or hell and enter one of these two states, but rather we sleep until the final judgement with no consciousness or awareness at all?

That would not be consistent with what my Southern Baptists friends believe:confused:

J. R. Graves did believe this at one point, I don't think he convinced as many Baptists of this as he did of landmarkism:wavey:

You may do a search online and read his works as well as works refuting his arguments.

bro. Dallas:wavey:
 

mrtumnus

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
In Jeremiah 31, Rahel was mournful and lamented for her children who were taken into captivity.

In Matthew, Rachel is only a representation of every woman who had her male child age 2 and under slain. Not Jacob's wife herself.
I was not aware that the fulfillment of a prophecy is simply a representation.

Nonetheless, based on your interpretation, in Jeremiah 31 where Rachel is mourning and lamenting her children taken into captivity -- this is still several hundred years after the death of Rachel, correct? So I would still ask how this could be, if Rachel is capable of mourning the captivity of the thousands of her descendants?
 

Frogman

<img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
Jeremiah 30:7

Jeremiah 30:7 speaks of Jacob's trouble. Is this his personally? Or is this speaking collectively? If it is his personally, then death does not separate us from trouble?

bro. Dallas:wavey:
 

mrtumnus

New Member
Frogman said:
Jeremiah 30:7 speaks of Jacob's trouble. Is this his personally? Or is this speaking collectively? If it is his personally, then death does not separate us from trouble?

bro. Dallas:wavey:
It would be my opinion that the term Jacob and Israel are often used inter-changeably to refer to the nation of Israel.

I see no such explanation for Rachel.
 

Frogman

<img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
My Opinion

:smilewinkgrin:

my opinion is different.

Rachel represents the then living mothers weeping for their (her) children and her people while Jacob's trouble represents the time of Israel's national trouble.

Same concept.

bro. Dallas:wavey:
 

skypair

Active Member
Has anyone considered...

...that MAYBE Mary was still beneath her "age of accountability" when she conceived Jesus?? And THAT is why she was the perfect INNOCENT "vessel" for the birthing of our Savior???

skypair
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
skypair said:
Has anyone considered...

...that MAYBE Mary was still beneath her "age of accountability" when she conceived Jesus?? And THAT is why she was the perfect INNOCENT "vessel" for the birthing of our Savior???

skypair

But she still would have had the stain of original sin.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
mrtumnus said:
I have a question regarding the idea that Mary must be omni-present in order to hear multitudes of prayers. (I think I've also seen omniscient used in the same lines).

Certainly Mary is not omni-present nor omniscient. I am not sure I would agree that being able to hear the prayers of multitudes would require these qualities however.

It seems to me that we are putting physical, human limitations on a spirit. Those of us who are in need of physical attributes to hear (2 ears) certainly have limitations in this area. But it's not clear to me that these types of limitations would occur in a pure spirit.

Unless Mary has become a ghost, she must have a limitation, I believe. No one can receive the prayers from all over the world. If Mary can receive the prayers from France, South Africa, Japan, Canada, Australia, Hawaii, Ivorycoast, Italy, Poland, Ireland, UK, Argentine, Brazil, Portugal, Chile, Philippines, etc. taking care of various disease such as dementia, stroke, fracture, dental problem, and computer problem, traffic accidents, violence, economic problem, and other millions and billions of problems, she must have been already a God! However, in the Bible we know that she couldn't understand what Jesus was saying ( Luke 2:50), then she came to Jesus along with unbelieving children ( Mt 12:46-48). She tried to tell Jesus something ( trying to teach Him ! instead of listening from Him) then Jesus said "who is my mother ?" and pointing out those who were listening to Him, " Whosoever shall do the will of my Father in the Heaven is my brother, and my mother" Did Jesus exalt Mary as Mother of God or ask the people to pray thru Mary?
Acceptance of Prayers require the Deity, I am sure. Otherwise, the person receiving the prayers cannot understand, cannot accept from everywhere, cannot convey to God exactly.

Nonetheless, if this is true, then how was Rachel able to be aware of the slaughering of the innocents by Herod? Matthew 2:17-18 says that "Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 'A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.'"

Rachel in Jeremiah is a metaphor. Rachel had 2 sons like Joseph and Benjamin, which is different from the Prophecy. The reason why Jeremiah was mentioning the name of Rachel was, I believe, because she was the one who can represent the so-close, intimate and loving relationship between mother and children as we remember her labor pain at the time of delivering Benjamin. Such mothers like Rachel in Bethlehem must have wept for their kids vehemently when King Herod send the soldiers to kill them.

Also, when you look back at the prophecy in Jeremiah, the Lord says "Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded," declares the Lord. "They will return from the land of the enemy. So there is hope for your future," declares the Lord. "Your children will return to their own land. "
This seems to be an example of someone who is dead (Rachel) very aware of something that is happening to a large group of people (weren't there around 2000 innocent children slaughtered?), and her 'work' of intercession with the Lord is promised to be rewarded.

Some portion of Jeremiah is talking about the return of Israel after diaspora, but it doesn't give us any hint that the dead people are praying for the living or we should pray to the dead or that we should pray thru the dead. Read Isaiah 8:19.
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?


Why don't you pray to God directly? Is it too difficult for you ?
 
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mrtumnus

New Member
Eliyahu said:
Why don't you pray to God directly? Is it too difficult for you ?
It's not difficult. I just don't see it as an either/or as you do.

Paul describes in the 12th chapter of Hebrews the difference between the way we as Christians approach God and that of the OT. He references in the OT that God was not approachable, a mountain that could not be touched.

We're then told that as Christians, that we "have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."

Right there in between approaching God as judge, and Jesus as mediator, we see we also come to 'the spirits of righteous men made perfect'. While I do indeed have a personal relationship with Jesus, I do not see it as being conducted 1;1, but rather in the presence of the heavenly Jerusalem. I do not see it as being "me and Jesus" separate from the body of Christ.

I don't pray to a saint, or Mary instead of God. I pray with them to God. We're all there. People seem to think if you include Mary or others in your prayers, you're taking away time from God. I simply see it as joining with other members of the communion of saints in the heavenly Jerusalem where Jesus is the mediator, they are fellow members of the body of Christ, and all our prayers are to God.
 

mrtumnus

New Member
skypair said:
Has anyone considered...

...that MAYBE Mary was still beneath her "age of accountability" when she conceived Jesus?? And THAT is why she was the perfect INNOCENT "vessel" for the birthing of our Savior???

skypair
I would perhaps be able to consider that question if somebody could point me to the place in the Bible where it discusses an 'age of accountability'?
 
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