Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

[DHK]

The angel Gabriel said "Hail full of grace ... . and Elizabeth said "the mother of my Lord ..." Then Jesus said "behold your mother...

Now that you have come to the Scriptures, look at it in its context and quote it accurately.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
--Mary was "highly favored." In five different translations there is no "full of grace." She was favored. She was highly favored in the sense that God chose her to bear the body of Jesus. She was a vessel used of God in a point in history and that is all.
"The Lord is with thee." Amen. The Lord is with every believer. He promises never to forsake us or leave us.
"Blessed art thou among women" Among the women of that time in that area she was blessed to bear the child Jesus. It in no way refers to all women of all ages.

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be.

So who is it? Jael or Mary that is blessed above all women? It can't be both can it?

"And Elizabeth said, the mother of my Lord."
What did Elizabeth say?
Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
--The context shows that the Holy Spirit was telling Elizabeth that Mary would give birth to the Messiah.

Mary's role flows directly from Christ. She stood at the cross, consented to the immolation of her Son and then received the beloved disciple at Jesus' Words, ‘Woman, behold your son" (Jn 19:26-27).

That is right. Woman behold thy son. Not "mother." Jesus did not address her as mother. That is important to note, for Jesus did not consider Mary as his mother. He was also making Mary to understand that she was not His mother. In fact he told John: "Behold 'thy' mother." John was to take care of Mary as if Mary was his mother.

After Jesus' Ascension, she aided the early Church by her prayers and implored the gift of the Spirit who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation.

Do you have Biblical proof here.

Mary said that "all generations will call me blessed" (Lk 1:48). From ancient times the Church has honored her as "the Mother of God."

Whatever you say. Then from ancient times people have been in gross error. Every writer of the NT has warned about false error, false teachers, false prophets. If they were there in the time of Christ and in the time of the Apostles, then your statement could very well be true. But that doesn't make it doctrinally correct. Ever since the garden of Eden people have believed the serpent's lie: "ye shall be as gods." Does that make it true? Antiquity does not equal truth.

The Church has special devotion to Mary which differs essentially from the adoration given to the Trinity. Her liturgical feasts and the rosary ("the epitome of the whole Gospel") express this devotion.

The practice of the rosary is heretical. It takes away worship from God and blasphemously gives it to Mary, making Mary into an idol. It is idolatry and blasphemy.

Furthermore Jesus said:
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The rosary is vain repetitions as the heathen do.
53 times is the "Hail Mary" repeated. It is a vain repetition. It is prayer to Mary as a god. There is only one God and it is not Mary. This kind of thing puts Catholicism in a class of pagan religions like Hinduism. It sets it apart from Christianity. Christianity has no part in goddess worship. That is a pagan practice.

You say the rosary is the epitome of the whole gospel. I laugh. I was a Catholic for 20 years, and never heard the gospel once. I prayed through the rosary almost every day. I can post for you the Hail Mary. There is no gospel there; only the worship of Mary. There is no gospel in the rosary; even to post such is a lie. Demonstrate how there is the gospel in the rosary. That should be interesting.

 

[Joe]

BTW, I don't have an "I'm always right hat"... where can I find one?

For you or Howdy Doody? :laugh:

Toys R Us!

 

[annsni]

Well, I pray to my dead grandmother and cousin in Heaven. Does that make me a bad Christian?

And yes, I DO pray to Mary. Why shouldn't I? I pray to her just as much as I do to God and Jesus.

My praying to Mary is a way to honor her for giving birth to my Lord and my Savior. This is what I believe. Who are you or anyone else, for that matter, to tell me that I'm wrong? I'm strong in my beliefs just as you are in yours. IMHO, that's all that matters

It makes me wonder where you are putting your faith. If it's in the wrong place, it makes one NOT a Christian.

Praying to Mary is one of the greatest gifts the Church has to offer us.

The church has no gifts for us other than fellowship and teaching. Praying to Mary does nothing.

I have a very deep love and a very high regard for this blessed woman [Mary]. I had no idea that loving and respecting the person who gave birth to my Lord and my Savior was a crime in your eyes and in other people's eyes. Maybe I should be stoned to death for it?

Respecting Mary because she gave birth to a baby under very bad circumstances and following through with faith in God that He had a plan for her is fine. Revering her to worship is heresy.

I have a feeling I'll be "jumped on" for this without respect for my belief and that's okay... I'm used to it now.

If I came to a Catholic board and posted what Scripture said, I'd expect to be "jumped on" too. If you do not want to hear the truth of Scripture and instead follow the "Church" and tradition, then this is not the right fit for you. If you DO want to hear the truth of God's Word, and of His love for you, then please stay.

 

[DHK]

Why? Because you say it is?

Again, NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole source for docrine and authority. Please give me a Bible verse that reads as follows:

The Bible is the sole source for doctrine and authority.

Did you not read my posts. Look again at post #66. I quoted for Isa.8:20; Acts 17:11, and Luke 24:27, all of which teach sola scriptura--the Bible is the sole source for doctrine and authority. It doesn't have to say it in those exact words just as the Bible doesn't use the word "trinity." But they do teach the principle.

The believers at Berea were commended by Paul for searching the Scriptures in order to verify the message that Paul was giving them was true. That is sola scriptura. This they did on a daily basis, and were commended for it. They did not consult tradition, but the Scriptures only. In fact it is interesting that they could use the OT to verify a NT message.

The Bible DOES'T say that we should use Catholic tradition, but it DOES say this:

2 Thess. 3:6, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us."

A gross misinterpretation of the verse.
The word "tradition" simply means "truth" as in the truth of God's word. Think of it.
First, I looked up the word tradition in a Catholic Encycopedia. It said that it was teaching, oral or written, passed down from generation to generation over many years throughout centuries.
Now apply that to this verse. The beginning of the church was at Pentecost shortly after the resurrection of Christ, about 29 A.D. Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonians around 60 A.D. How much "tradition" (according to a Catholic definition) could be passed down in a period of 30 years? Obviously none! There was no time for any tradition to develop. There is no logical sense here whatsoever.
"The tradition (the teaching of the Word of God) which you have received from us--whether by preaching and teaching (orally) or by written letter (written). There is no tradition as interpreted by the Catholics.
The term is simply used as the truth of God's Word, which Paul had been teaching to them.

2 Thess. 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

Again, the same gross misinterpretation has been used.
The term "tradition" simply refers to the truth of God's Word as explained above.
"Hold to the 'truth of God's Word' which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter."
What and how did Paul teach them?
1. He taught them the Word of God and only the Word of God. That was the commission that God gave him.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

The obvious point is that he did not preach tradition. He always preached Christ, the Word of God. "Tradition" cannot mean 'tradition' in the sense that Catholics define it. It is impossible.

1 Cor. 11:2, "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you."

I don't know where you are quoting from, but it sounds like a bad or inaccurate translation. Here is what the KJV says:

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
--These are not traditions. They are ordinances or commands. A command is far different than a tradition. Read the rest of the chapter and you will find a series of commands that Paul gives to the Corinthians.

The Bible is for tradition where it supports the teachings of the apostles (2 Thess. 2:15) and is consistent with biblical revelation.

The Bible does not support any such tradition at all. You have read into the Bible your own pre-conceived ideas (no doubt reading it from a Catholic web site).

Yet, it is against tradition when it "transgresses the commands of God" (Matt. 15:3). By Jesus' own words, tradition is not to transgress or contradict the commands of God. In other words, it should be in harmony with biblical teaching and not oppose it in any way.

And this is what the Catholics do. Their traditin opposes Biblical teaching.

The abuse lies within the fact that NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole authority for doctrine and authority. Again, please give me a Bible verse that reads as follows:

The Bible is the sole source for doctrine and authority.

I already gave you three. I still could give you more, but when you ignore the ones I gave I find that unnecessary.

How does the Catholic Churc abuse the Bible through tradition? They use the following verses to defend tradition:

2 Thess. 3:6, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us."

2 Thess. 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

1 Cor. 11:2, "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you."

They don't use them; they abuse them. Here is what Peter says about that:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Again, the Bible is for tradition where it supports the teachings of the apostles (2 Thess. 2:15) and is consistent with biblical revelation. Yet, it is against tradition when it "transgresses the commands of God" (Matt. 15:3). By Jesus' own words, tradition is not to transgress or contradict the commands of God. In other words, it should be in harmony with biblical teaching and not oppose it in any way.

But the Catholic Tradition contradicts the Bible in almost every way.

 

[Eliyahu]

Many godly women try to find a clue in the Bible to worship the goddess !

 

[annsni]

Why? Because you say it is?

Again, NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole source for docrine and authority. Please give me a Bible verse that reads as follows:

The Bible is the sole source for doctrine and authority.

The Bible DOES'T say that we should use Catholic tradition, but it DOES say this:

2 Thess. 3:6, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us."

2 Thess. 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

1 Cor. 11:2, "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you."

The Bible is for tradition where it supports the teachings of the apostles (2 Thess. 2:15) and is consistent with biblical revelation. Yet, it is against tradition when it "transgresses the commands of God" (Matt. 15:3). By Jesus' own words, tradition is not to transgress or contradict the commands of God. In other words, it should be in harmony with biblical teaching and not oppose it in any way.



The abuse lies within the fact that NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole authority for doctrine and authority. Again, please give me a Bible verse that reads as follows:

The Bible is the sole source for doctrine and authority.



How does the Catholic Churc abuse the Bible through tradition? They use the following verses to defend tradition:

2 Thess. 3:6, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us."

2 Thess. 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

1 Cor. 11:2, "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you."

Again, the Bible is for tradition where it supports the teachings of the apostles (2 Thess. 2:15) and is consistent with biblical revelation. Yet, it is against tradition when it "transgresses the commands of God" (Matt. 15:3). By Jesus' own words, tradition is not to transgress or contradict the commands of God. In other words, it should be in harmony with biblical teaching and not oppose it in any way.

I will copy and paste something for you to read. It's from this site http://www.ankerberg.com/ - it's got a lot of great information. On the left side is a link to their articles on Roman Catholicism.

Are the Scriptures alone sufficient and authoritative for the Christian life? The Word of God says "yes!" The Roman Catholic Church says an emphatic "No," foolishly declaring its tradition is also the Word of God and therefore equally authoritative. However, as we study the Bible we see overwhelming evidence as to why Scripture stands alone as the supreme authority in all matters of faith. The internal testimony of the Bible reveals the Word of God is pure, perfect, inerrant, infallible, living, truth, light, holy, eternal, and forever settled in heaven. It illuminates, cleanses, saves, frees, guides, converts, heals, quickens, judges, and sanctifies. It also brings conviction, gives knowledge, gives wisdom, produces faith, refutes error, searches the heart, equips for every good work, and is used as a weapon. God has magnified His Word according to His Name (Psalm 138:2)

Compare this with what the Bible says about tradition. Jesus told the religious leaders of His day that by holding on to their tradition they were nullifying and invalidating the word of God (Mat. 7:7-13). Paul warned his readers: "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ" (Col. 2:8). Every time Paul spoke of tradition in a positive sense, it always referred to the tradition they had already received from the apostles. There is not one indication from Scripture that new traditions should be followed or developed. In fact Jude exhorts all Christians to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). Yet the Roman Catholic Church has developed new traditions over the last 1600 years that oppose and nullify the word of God and the grace of God. In doing so they supplant the authority of God’s word with traditions of men. Because of this Catholics who fear God should take the exhortation of Peter seriously: "we ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). The Bible represents the perfect character of God, whereas Roman Catholic tradition represents the imperfect character of man.

Thus, the Scriptures provide our only trustworthy and objective basis for authority. Through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, who provides illumination, conviction and discernment, we have confidence that the Bible is true. This dual authority, the Spirit of God working with the Word of God, is sufficient in all matters of faith and Christian living. Catholics, on the other hand, submit to a dual authority of tradition and Scripture, under the subjective interpretation of their church. The pope, who believes he speaks for all Christianity, is said to be infallible in all matters pertaining to faith and morals.

Many Roman Catholics have asked, "Where does it say in the Bible that Scripture alone should be the authority for faith?" Is "Sola Scriptura," the battle cry of the Reformers, found in the Bible? First we must define what "Sola Scriptura" means: Scripture is the sole source of written divine revelation and is sufficient to function as the sole, infallible rule of faith and practice for the Church. Everything that one needs to know, understand and believe for salvation is found in the Scriptures. The Scriptures (as the sufficient rule of faith) do not refer us to or point us to any other rule of faith. Given this definition, there are at least nine biblical justifications for Sola Scriptura.

1. All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God and useful for reproof and correction of error (2 Timothy 3:16). Since Scripture is used to correct and reprove then it must be the authoritative standard by which everything else is judged for its truthfulness.

2. Jesus said, "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:34). The character of God is on the line. "God is not a man that He should lie... and hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good (Numbers 23:19). Submitting to the authority of God’s revealed word will guide us in His perfect will.

3. Christ used the authority of Scripture to rebuke Satan’s attempt to deceive Him (Matthew 4:1-11). He gave prepositional statements to accurately convey the truth that Satan attempted to distort. Jesus was our perfect model for rebuking deception.

4. Jesus used the authority of Scriptures to rebuke false teachers (Matthew 22:29). The only way false teachers can be confronted and exposed is in the power of God’s Word.

5. Repentant sinners are saved by hearing and believing the Word (Ephesians 1:13-14). The integrity of the Gospel must be maintained and proclaimed for true conversions (Gal. 1:6-9).

6. Jesus prayed for Christians to be sanctified (set apart) by the truth of His Word (John 17:17). Christians must separate themselves from apostates and false teachers (2 Cor. 6:14-17). God uses His word to divide and to show which people have His approval (1 Cor. 11:19).

7. One must look to the authority of Scripture to be set free from religious deception and become a disciple of Christ (John 8:31-32). Those who follow the traditions and teachings of men remain in legalistic bondage and are often led astray.

8. Christ rebuked the religious leaders for nullifying the Word of God with their tradition (Mark 7:13). Any tradition or teaching that nullifies the Scriptures must be exposed and renounced so others will not be deceived (Eph. 5:11).

9. The Scriptures were written to all people, not to popes or the Magisterium to be interpreted for lay people. Paul delivered the uncorrupted Word of God to every man’s conscience in the sight of God (2 Cor. 4:2). Anytime we allow others to interpret God’s word for us, we leave ourselves open to deception. That is why the Lord Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

God foreknew the teachings and traditions of men would become corrupt and would lead many astray. In His wisdom, He left us with His Word, as the only objective, absolute authority for truth. Why would the Roman Catholic Church want to add anything subjective to the objective standard God has given us? Apparently, it is to control their flock with legalistic bondage by supplanting God’s authority with an authority of their own.

 

[annsni]

OK - Finished reading the thread.

Can I just answer something you said Godlywoman?

You said that because Jesus is God, and Mary gave birth to Jesus, she is the mother of God.

However, when Jesus died on the cross, did God die?

 

[mrtumnus]

Did you not read my posts. Look again at post #66. I quoted for Isa.8:20; Acts 17:11, and Luke 24:27, all of which teach sola scriptura--the Bible is the sole source for doctrine and authority. It doesn't have to say it in those exact words just as the Bible doesn't use the word "trinity." But they do teach the principle.

2 Corinthians 10:8-11
For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it. I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. For some say, "His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing." Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

2 Corinithians 13: 9-10
We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection. This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority--the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.


Heb 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you

It doesn't seem to me that the Bible indicates it is the sole source for authority.

It does many times demonstrate the apostles using their authority to authoritatively teach scripture. I can't seem to find the passage where they indicate to the believers that they should read and the Holy Spirit would provide them with a correct interpretation.

 

[Joe]

I can't seem to find the passage where they indicate to the believers that they should read and the Holy Spirit would provide them with a correct interpretation.

Nice to meet you

1 Corinthians 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

The words of the holy spirit are only found in the bible.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1 Corinthians 2:14 is also good with that verse.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

To try to teach the things of the Spirit of God using sources that do not line up with the Word of God is foolishness. One that tries to explain God's will for man by using anything other than the Word of God is in direct disobedience to God's Word.

 

[mrtumnus]

Nice to meet you

1 Corinthians 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

The words of the holy spirit are only found in the bible.

Nice to meet you too. :wavey:

You're of the belief that the Holy Spirit only worked through men directly until the Bible was completed, and then stopped?

 

[Joe]

Nice to meet you

1 Corinthians 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

The words of the holy spirit are only found in the bible.

Nice to meet you too. :wavey:

You're of the belief that the Holy Spirit only worked through men directly until the Bible was completed, and then stopped?

No. This verse you asked about points to the words of the holy spirit. Obviously, the words are in the bible so if you want to know the holy spirit, you get to know what is in your bible front and back. You trust it as the sole authority, not man's wisdom. Until I look something up, or someone offers bible verses as proof for their beliefs, it's not worth anything as it is only man's opinion.

The only way to know the spirit is to get serious, read and believe what your bible says as the only source of truth. Don't let man made interpretations or man made beliefs keep you from going to the source to for proof of what you believe.

You picked an interesting handle

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Holy Spirit still works through men today, but in a different manner. The Working of the Holy Spirit today does not add to, nor will it ever add to the Written Word of God. The Written Word is complete.

If one claims the Holy Spirit is giving him or her some new divine revelation that has never been revealed to man before, then that one is bearing false witness.

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[mrtumnus]

No. The words of the holy spirit are only found in the bible, so if you want to know the holy spirit, you get to know what is in your bible front and back. You trust it as the sole authority, not man's wisdom. Until I look something up, or someone offers bible verses at the very least, it's not worth anything as it is only man's opinion.


The only way to know the spirit is to get serious, read and believe what your bible says as the only source of truth. Don't let man made interpretations or man made beliefs keep you from going to the source to for proof of what you believe.

You picked an interesting handle

I would assume that lots of prayer would go along with that Bible study as part of the 'only' way to know the spirit?

The catch I see to this idea (and probably always will) is that you are then relying on your wisdom for a correct interpretation, which would be equivalent to "man's wisdom", is it not? And how would your interpretation not be man-made, whereas someone else's is?

And also, you've read no Bible commentaries or interpretations by others (ever) that may have influenced the conclusions you've reached?

Does my handle trouble you? I'm aware many are not big fans of CS Lewis.

 

[Joe]

No. I read your handle and didn't catch it at first. I love mr. tumnis. He's my favorite character on the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe

Honestly, I don't read any other books except the bible. It seems many others do. As a new Christian, I read the Purpose Driven life. Took it apart verse by verse practically, looked each and everything up. It didn't take a bible scholar to look up verses and notice right off they didn't mean what the author was trying to intend them to. Eventually, 1/3 of the book was marked up as inaccurate.

Maybe this is why I don't trust any books except the bible. There are living translations which make it easier to understand.
Prayer helps of course, but you can only get closer to him in knowing him. You can't know him if you don't read his instruction book (The Bible). I don't concern myself over the holy spirit, it's not a salvation issue anyway. It took a while for me to feel the Holy Spirit's presence. It will happen, so there is no reason to dwell upon it.

You can check out e sword (free program) to look up verses. The program has many features. I don't use it though.

Are you female? There is a bible study called BSF which is free, and there are locations all over the world. It is non-denominational, various denominations attend this study. My neighbor is a teacher.

 

[mrtumnus]

No, I read your handle and didn't get it at first. I love mr. tumnis! He's my favorite character on the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe

Honestly, I don't read any other books except the bible. It seems many others do, but I have never done so except as a new Christian, I read the Purpose Driven life. Took it apart verse by verse almost, looked each and everything up. It didn't take a bible scholar to look up verses and notice right off they didn't mean what the author was trying to intend them to. Eventually, 1/3 of the book was marked up as inaccurate.

Maybe this is why I don't trust any books except the bible. There are living translations which make it easier to understand.

I don't use them but people here mentioned free programs from e sword you can use to look up verses. Are you female? There is a bible study called BSF which is free, and there are locations all over the world. It is non-denominational so many different denominations of folks attend this study. My neighbor is a teacher.

Glad you like Mr. Tumnus. I identify with him because he found courage to do the right thing, although he didn't start out that way. And yes, I am female -- don't let the "Mr." fool you.

I like to use a variety of Bible study tools and go back and forth. Do you have some info on the BSF?

Lately I have been working through much of what Scott Hahn has put together. Sure it wouldn't appeal to many here, but he is extremely well educated in both Protestant and Catholic theology and tends to be a little more realistic about both perspectives than some.

Related to the topic at hand, interesting enough he and his wife both received graduate degrees from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, which is a Bible-based non-denominational evangelical seminary (you can check out their statement of faith to see if it aligns or not with your beliefs). His wife states that "In seminary we used the technical term, theotokos which means God-bearer or even Mother of God. Now I have to admit that when we heard that in seminary, I kind of bristled. That doesn't sound right. Mother of God sounds like she made God. You know that's not right. But my Protestant seminary professor assured all of us it was a very important title because if she only mothered Jesus in his humanity, then Jesus wasn't fully God. But if Jesus, in one person, was fully God and fully man, then we can honestly say that she is the Mother of God, not the creator of God but the Mother of God. And there's no need to be offended by that. "

Thought that was kind of interesting seeings that people here seem to think that's just a Catholic/Orthodox heresy.

 

[Joe]

Oh, you're female. This is good
Here is the link http://www.bsfinternational.org/

For a new Christian, just understanding salvation issues should be your goal. You want to ensure your own salvation, this is most important. Google salvation issues

Obsessing over who the mother of God is only distracts us from knowing who he is, thus it makes no sense. Let's say that Mary is the mother of God. So what? I want to live! I have better things to worry about, like what the Lord expects of me. He is a jelous God so praying to or thru his mother Mary would probably irk him. He told us otherwise. Christ Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the father except thru me" When I pray, I pray to God in Jesus name. It is through Jesus death I have salvation. Mary was just an incubator.

 

[Joe]

Lately I have been working through much of what Scott Hahn has put together.

I just skimmed his name on Wikipedia, which isn't always accurate. It appears a works based salvation. Google works based salvation if you choose.

Salvation is very simple, and when works are added to it, this is often the definition of a Cult.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Glad you like Mr. Tumnus. I identify with him because he found courage to do the right thing, although he didn't start out that way. And yes, I am female -- don't let the "Mr." fool you.

I like to use a variety of Bible study tools and go back and forth. Do you have some info on the BSF?

Lately I have been working through much of what Scott Hahn has put together. Sure it wouldn't appeal to many here, but he is extremely well educated in both Protestant and Catholic theology and tends to be a little more realistic about both perspectives than some.

Related to the topic at hand, interesting enough he and his wife both received graduate degrees from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, which is a Bible-based non-denominational evangelical seminary (you can check out their statement of faith to see if it aligns or not with your beliefs). His wife states that "In seminary we used the technical term, theotokos which means God-bearer or even Mother of God. Now I have to admit that when we heard that in seminary, I kind of bristled. That doesn't sound right. Mother of God sounds like she made God. You know that's not right. But my Protestant seminary professor assured all of us it was a very important title because if she only mothered Jesus in his humanity, then Jesus wasn't fully God. But if Jesus, in one person, was fully God and fully man, then we can honestly say that she is the Mother of God, not the creator of God but the Mother of God. And there's no need to be offended by that. "

Thought that was kind of interesting seeings that people here seem to think that's just a Catholic/Orthodox heresy.

Your theology teacher got that one wrong. Mary is not the Mother of God. To say she was the Mother of God would be to say she existed before God did... which is heresy. One would also have to come to the conclusion that God had a beginning if Mary was the Mother of God... another heresy.

Just because one teaches a seminary does not make one unquestionable in his or her doctrine. The Mother of God doctrine should be questioned and discarded as heresy.

 

[Eliyahu]

No one can claim the theory of Mother of God unless she or he is obssessed with the devout goddess worship, because it contradicts Divine Trinity.
Mother of God theory started from Divine Trinty but it contradicts Divine Trinity again.

One may claim Mary is Mother of 1/3 Godheads, Mother of God the Son, but it is limied to a certain time after the birth of Jesus while the Divinity of God ( God the Son) is eternal. Nobody in the Bible called her like that.
Instead, the Hebrews writer denies Mother of Son of God ( Heb 7:1-5)

So many stories about Mary is a Hoax or contradiction to the Bible teachings. Let's see some of them.

1. Immaculate Conception:
All human race are sinners, and everyone of Adam's race was born sinners. ( Romans 3:10-23)
Some Roman Catholics claim that Mary was protected from sins.
If anyone can be protected from the sins, why didn't God allow it to all the people on this earth?
If anyone can be protected from the sins without the Blood of Jesus, why didn't God apply that method to all the human beings so that His beloved Son wouldn't have to die the terrible death?
Why did Mary rejoice in her Savior ? ( Luke 1:47)
Why couldn't the Immaculate Mary understand what Jesus was telling to her? ( Luke 2:50)

2. Assumption of Mary

Why does the Bible keep silence about it?
Apostle John may have taken care of her during the rest of her life. Why does he keep silence about her in Gospel JOhn, Epistle John 1, 2, 3, Revelation? Was it because the assumption was so trivial thing to mention? Then why so many people are taught to believe it?

3. Queen of Heaven

Where is such title in the Bible?
We can find this only in the paganism mentioned by Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 44
15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, 16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. 17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. 18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men

Calling Mary the Queen of Heaven will bring the blessings to the people?

But God says this:

12 And I will take the remnant of Judah, that have set their faces to go into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, and they shall all be consumed, and fall in the land of Egypt; they shall even be consumed by the sword and by the famine: they shall die, from the least even unto the greatest, by the sword and by the famine: and they shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach.

4. Statue of Mary

This is apparently Idol prohibited in the Bible so many times. If you disagree, please check Deuteronomy 4 and Isaiah 42-48, and many other OT Bibles and Revelation 16-18.

16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: 19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

5. Mary, Mother of Church

Where is such heresy stated in the Bible?

Read Galatians 4:22-31, which tells us our mother is the Jerusalem symbolizing Sarah

6. Prayer to Mary

Can she accept the prayers from 1.3 billion people all over the world, for 2000 years?

Why couldn't she understand what Jesus was telling her ( Luke 2:50)?

Is Mary Omni-present? She must be busy then ! Can she understand the prayers from various countries in hundreds of languages?

When did the capacity of Mary explode such? Only in the minds of the goddess worshippers ! Devout goddess worshippers !