Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

[standingfirminChrist]

Jesus never told anyone to pray to Him. He always told them to pray to the Father.

Whatsoever you ask the Father in My name...
Our Father which art in Heaven...

 

[Eliyahu]

When one uses a syllogism, it is only as true as the reality it reflects. Suggesting that Mary is 'not' the Mother of the Person Jesus Christ and that Person is not the unity of both Divine and Human Natures unravels our whole faith in Jesus as Lord.



Because there are 'truly' three persons of the Holy Trinity and 'each' of these persons are 'all' equally God. If even 'one' of them dwelt within the womb of Mary then 'truly' God 'whole and complete' was present in her, bodily. In your attempt to undermine Mary as the Theotokos you are undermining the very Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.



Let me turn the question around on you. What of the Nature of God is lacking in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity? If you do not agree that 'nothing' was lacking of the Nature of God within the Second Person of the Holy Trinity then your argument is mute for 'truly' God dwelt among us bodily.

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Bound,

Let me comment on the highlighted part.

Calling Mary the mother of Jesus or mother of Lord is OK as we find them in the Scriptures ( John 19:25, Ac 1:14).
There is nothing wrong with them. But when we turn to Mother of God, we can easily find the contradiction with the other Godheads, and you cannot present any refutation in support of Mother of God.

I believe Jesus was the son of Mary, and Is the God the Son. But I don't call Mary the Mother of God, because she is neither Mother of God the Father nor Mother of God the Holy Spirit, and nobody in the Bible called her Mother of God.
Do you think Peter, Paul John called Mary the Mother of God ever? but they didn't record it in the Bible?

Mother of Lord is no problem. Then you can call Mary the mother of the Lord. Why do you try to change from it?
Are you claiming Lord = God?
Sarah called Abraham " Lord" ( 1 Peter3:6-9) Did she believe her husband was God? Jacob called Esau my Lord ( Gen 33:13-4), does it mean that Easu is God?

The others were answered in my previous post.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus never told anyone to pray to Him. He always told them to pray to the Father.

Whatsoever you ask the Father in My name...
Our Father which art in Heaven...

True but God never stated that "we should not consult God the Son" as He tells us that "we should not consult the DEAD on behalf of the living" in Isaiah 8:19.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It is true, we are not to consult the dead.

 

[mrtumnus]

True but God never stated that "we should not consult God the Son" as He tells us that "we should not consult the DEAD on behalf of the living" in Isaiah 8:19.

in Christ,

Bob

Sorry, I thought the whole point being made regarding praying to Mary was that it wasn't stated anywhere in the Bible that this was okay. It just seems to me that this would apply to Jesus as well.

But your response does bring up an interesting point -- is there a difference between physical death and spiritual death?

It seems to me that somebody can be physically dead yet spiritually alive (in Christ), or they could be physically alive, yet spiritually dead (in Christ).

So is every time the Bible refers to the DEAD, is it always in reference to physical death as opposed to spiritual death?

 

[DHK]

So is every time the Bible refers to the DEAD, is it always in reference to physical death as opposed to spiritual death?

Death, in the Bible, always means "separation." There are different types of death described in the Bible, but always described as "separation.

1. Physical death.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the spirit separates from the body it is death. Death is separation; never annihilation. That spirit lives forever in either heaven or hell, and with the resurrection will either live in an immortal body in heaven or the lake of fire depending on whether or not they have received or rejected Christ as their Saviour. Death is always separation; never annihilation. However this verse speaks of physical death, what the doctors claim as "dead." It is a mere departure or separation of the spirit from the body.

2. Eternal death.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--Eternal life is compared here to (eternal) death. It is speaking of eternal death as a comparison to the eternal life in the latter part of the verse. A person without Christ will find themselves eternall separated from Christ; not annihilated, but eternall separated in a place called hell, which will later on be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

3. Spiritual Death (separation)
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Paul explains to the Ephesians believers that they were once dead (not physically) but are now alive. How could this be? They were once separated from God by their sin. But now, being born again, God has restored them unto himself. It was a spiritual death--spiritual separation from God. Thus Jesus emphasizes the necessity of the new birth. We are dead. We need to be born from above.

4. The Second Death.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
--This is the final sentencing of all unsaved. No believer will be present. All unsaved will appear before God in their resurrected bodies to receive their one final sentence and that is to be cast into the Lake of Fire where they shall suffer torment day and night forever and ever (20:10,15).
Death in the Bible is always separation; never annihilation.

 

[Linda64]

Death, in the Bible, always means "separation." There are different types of death described in the Bible, but always described as "separation.

1. Physical death.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the spirit separates from the body it is death. Death is separation; never annihilation. That spirit lives forever in either heaven or hell, and with the resurrection will either live in an immortal body in heaven or the lake of fire depending on whether or not they have received or rejected Christ as their Saviour. Death is always separation; never annihilation. However this verse speaks of physical death, what the doctors claim as "dead." It is a mere departure or separation of the spirit from the body.

2. Eternal death.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--Eternal life is compared here to (eternal) death. It is speaking of eternal death as a comparison to the eternal life in the latter part of the verse. A person without Christ will find themselves eternall separated from Christ; not annihilated, but eternall separated in a place called hell, which will later on be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

3. Spiritual Death (separation)
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Paul explains to the Ephesians believers that they were once dead (not physically) but are now alive. How could this be? They were once separated from God by their sin. But now, being born again, God has restored them unto himself. It was a spiritual death--spiritual separation from God. Thus Jesus emphasizes the necessity of the new birth. We are dead. We need to be born from above.

4. The Second Death.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
--This is the final sentencing of all unsaved. No believer will be present. All unsaved will appear before God in their resurrected bodies to receive their one final sentence and that is to be cast into the Lake of Fire where they shall suffer torment day and night forever and ever (20:10,15).
Death in the Bible is always separation; never annihilation.

:thumbs: AMEN!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

For the Child of God, death means separation from the cares of this world. Separation from the pain, sorrow, disease, etc...

 

[Linda64]

Roman Catholic Church Puts Mary On The Cross

In spite of claims of contemporary Catholic propagandists, the Roman Catholic Church worships Mary.

She has been exalted as the sinless Mother of God who was bodily assumed into Heaven and crowned Queen of the Universe by Jesus Christ. According to Roman Catholic doctrine, Mary sits on Jesus’ throne and acts as His co-mediatrix.

In the Church of the Mother of God of Polish Martyrs in Warsaw, Poland, Mary is depicted as hanging on the cross holding the child Jesus.

Outside of the main Mary basilica in Rome (Santa Maria Maggiore) there is a large crucifix with Jesus hanging on one side and a crowned Mary hanging on the other.

This statue depicts Rome’s dogma that Mary is the co-redemptress with Christ, that she intercedes for men from heaven and aids in their salvation.

Note the following quotations from the Vatican II Council of the 1960s:

“As St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ... ‘death through Eve, LIFE THROUGH MARY.’ This UNION OF THE MOTHER WITH THE SON IN THE WORK OF SALVATION is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, and MEDIATRIX” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

A plaque in the Chapel of the Virgin of the Grace at Saints Vincent and Anastasius Church in Rome says, “Cardinal Benedetto Odescalchi, who became the pope with the name of Innocent XI, initiated THE WORSHIP OF THE IMAGE, placed on the altar in 1677, and wanted his heart to be buried here, not in the main chapel.”

This is only one example of many that could be given of the term “worship” used in regard to Mary in Rome’s churches.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/rcc-puts-mary-on-cross.html

For the pictures of Mary hanging on the cross in the Church of the Mother of God of Polish Martyrs in Warsaw and outside of the main Mary basilica in Rome (Santa Maria Maggiore) there is a large crucifix with Jesus hanging on one side and a crowned Mary hanging on the other.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, I thought the whole point being made regarding praying to Mary was that it wasn't stated anywhere in the Bible that this was okay. It just seems to me that this would apply to Jesus as well.

I understand but my point is that in the special case of prayers to the dead we are told not to do it.

In the case of praying to God the Son the issue is not so clear that God tells us "NOT" to do it as He does in the case of praying to the dead.

I "happen" to believe that praying to God the Father is the correct way to do it - but I don't have anything in scripture that say "Praying to God the Son is wrong".

But your response does bring up an interesting point -- is there a difference between physical death and spiritual death?

It seems to me that somebody can be physically dead yet spiritually alive (in Christ), or they could be physically alive, yet spiritually dead (in Christ).

You are using spirit two different ways in that case.

in Matt 10 Christ said "do not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul/spirit" without reference to the person being a saint or not - death in this life does not "destroy" the spirit.

But the Bible also says "the dead know not anything" and Christ in Matt 22 says "God is not the God of the dead" speaking of the relationship that the dead have with God.

This is in fact why God tells us not to try to communicate with them. Nothing there listening to us.

So is every time the Bible refers to the DEAD, is it always in reference to physical death as opposed to spiritual death?

No - for example "Dead in tresspasses an sins" refers to a living person who is not born-again.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I usually pray to God the Father, in Jesus name.

Praying to Jesus has nothing to do with praying to Mary.

Mary is dead...Jesus is alive!

 

[mrtumnus]

You are using spirit two different ways in that case.

in Matt 10 Christ said "do not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul/spirit" without reference to the person being a saint or not - death in this life does not "destroy" the spirit.

But the Bible also says "the dead know not anything" and Christ in Matt 22 says "God is not the God of the dead" speaking of the relationship that the dead have with God.

This is in fact why God tells us not to try to communicate with them. Nothing there listening to us.

Do you have the scripture reference for 'the dead know not anything'?

Regarding "God is not the God of the dead", perhaps I am wrong, but this seems to me to be a clear case of 'spiritual death' and not 'physical death' that Jesus is speaking of? "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." These are obviously folks who are physically dead, yet God is still their God, yet states he is not the God of the dead but of the living. Or I am mis-understanding this?

 

[mrtumnus]

I usually pray to God the Father, in Jesus name.

Praying to Jesus has nothing to do with praying to Mary.

Mary is dead...Jesus is alive!

Now this is what confuses me.

For example, I have family members who have died. Obviously they are physically dead, and Jesus is not.

But I would never say 'they are dead and Jesus is alive'. I consider them to be very much alive -- alive in Christ!

Do Baptists not believe that those in heaven are alive in Christ?

 

[mrtumnus]

The Apostles were given authority. It was confirmed with signs, wonders, and spiritual gifts. That is true. That was in the Apostolic Age. But the Apostles couldn't be everywhere at all times. And they would eventually die. The spiritual gifts would come to an end by the end of the first century.

So your doctrine would be that the apostles were the authority for doctrine until they died, and then the Bible became the sole authority?

Can you provide the scripture reference that indicates that this change in authority would occur at the death of the apostles?

 

[Joe]

Now this is what confuses me. But I would never say 'they are dead and Jesus is alive'. I consider them to be very much alive -- alive in Christ!

The dead are dead right now. They are rotting in their graves, they know nothing. They are dead, not "alive in Christ" There is no biblical support for this false belief.

Do Baptists not believe that those in heaven are alive in Christ?

Baptists believe the dead are in their graves at the moment and the living are living. It is not time to ascend into heaven yet. Everyone in this forum, to my knowledge, everyone on this message board, regardless of their faith, believes this. It is not disputable.

Right before the 7 year tribulation on earth, (also known as pre tribulation) all saved Christians will accend into the sky. This includes the living saved christians, and the dead saved Christians who will rise from their graves into the heavens above. All saved Christians. They will not suffer 7 years of hell on earth. People will mourn the loss of their friends and loved ones.

All others will be left alone here on earth to endure 7 years of chaos and hell on earth. The Antichrist will rule. Most will not come to the Lord during this time. After the seven years, then the one's who came to know the Lord in the 7 years will be saved. After the 7 years, the dead left will rise out of their graves and go to hell with the unsaved living people. They will be thrown into the lake of fire where there will be knashing of teeth. They will remain in hell forever.

It is so important to learn what your Bible says and not just find ways to worship others because we misunderstand the bible. Worship or prayer to anyone except our Father, is gross sin. You may go to hell over it, pretty risky thing to do. God says he is a jelous God.
It is through Jesus death on the cross that we have a gift of eternal life.

 

[mrtumnus]

The dead are dead right now. They are rotting in their graves, they know nothing. They are dead, not "alive in Christ"



The dead are in their graves at the moment and the living are living. It is not time to ascend into heaven yet.

Right before the 7 year tribulation on earth, (also known as pre tribulation) all saved Christians will accend into the sky. This includes the living saved christians, and the dead saved Christians who will rise from their graves into the heavens above. All saved Christians. They will not suffer 7 years of hell on earth. People will mourn the loss of their friends and loved ones.

All others will be left alone here on earth to endure 7 years of chaos and hell on earth. The Antichrist will rule. Most will not come to the Lord during this time. After the seven years, then the one's who came to know the Lord in the 7 years will be saved. The dead who are destined to hell will rise out of their graves and go to hell with the unsaved living people. They will be thrown into the lake of fire where there will be knashing of teeth. They will remain in hell.

It is so important to learn what your Bible says and not worship, or pray to anyone except our Father, our creator in Jesus name. It is through Jesus death on the cross that we have a gift of eternal life.

Is this the doctrine of 'soul sleep'? I thought that was a Seventh Day Adventist belief, not a Baptist one.

 

[mrtumnus]

Right before the 7 year tribulation on earth, (also known as pre tribulation) all saved Christians will accend into the sky. This includes the living saved christians, and the dead saved Christians who will rise from their graves into the heavens above. All saved Christians. They will not suffer 7 years of hell on earth. People will mourn the loss of their friends and loved ones.

I am curious -- are you familiar with the writings of Corrie Ten Boom at all (the Dutch Holocaust survivor who was interned because her family was helping Jews hide from the Germans)?

She has explicitly rejected the pre-tribulation rapture theory and being non-Biblical, and says it has left the church woefully unprepared to face persecution.

Her books are amazing testaments to Christianity.

 

[Joe]

Is this the doctrine of 'soul sleep'? I thought that was a Seventh Day Adventist belief, not a Baptist one.

Yes, Soul Sleep is an SDA doctrine. It is not a Baptist Doctrine.
No matter what, whether you believe in soul sleep or not, this makes no difference. Soul Sleep means unconscious, and not knowing. Similar to being dead. They know nothing.

Bob Ryan is SDA. He also said this in a post somewhere, but I can't recall where. That the dead are dead, they know nothing.

 

[Joe]

I am curious -- are you familiar with the writings of Corrie Ten Boom at all (the Dutch Holocaust survivor who was interned because her family was helping Jews hide from the Germans)?
I am somewhat familiar because of the interest I had in researching the holocaust. You have to think of it from her point of view. She was abruptly hauled off like cattle to concentration camps where most everyone suffered an unimaginable death. This probably caught her by surprise. She likely decided she would never let that happen again!!
She is concerned people will not be ready for the rapture since many may believe they have more time to come to the Lord (those extra 7 years). I can see her point of view.

She has explicitly rejected the pre-tribulation rapture theory and being non-Biblical, and says it has left the church woefully unprepared to face persecution.

Her books are amazing testaments to Christianity.

As far as I know, this is most of what mainstream Christianity believes. There is biblical support for it, but whether you believe in the pre-trib rapture is not a salvation issue.

I am somewhat familiar with her because of the interest I had in researching the holocaust. You have to think of it from her point of view. She was suddenly taken abruptly to concentration camps where most everyone suffered an unimaginable death. This probably caught her by surprise. She likely decided she would never let that happen again!!
She is concerned people will not be ready for the rapture since many may believe they have more time to come to the Lord (those extra 7 years). I can see her point of view, but do not hold to it.

 

[mrtumnus]

As far as I know, this is most of what mainstream Christianity believes. There is biblical support for it, but whether you believe in the pre-trib rapture is not a salvation issue.

I am somewhat familiar with her because of the interest I had in researching the holocaust. You have to think of it from her point of view. She was suddenly taken abruptly to concentration camps where most everyone suffered an unimaginable death. This probably caught her by surprise. She likely decided she would never let that happen again!!
She is concerned people will not be ready for the rapture since many may believe they have more time to come to the Lord (those extra 7 years). I can see her point of view, but do not hold to it.

No, she's concerned people will not be ready to experience the tribulation, because their false theology has convinced them that they won't have to face it.

http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm