Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

[mrtumnus]

As far as I know, this is most of what mainstream Christianity believes. There is biblical support for it, but whether you believe in the pre-trib rapture is not a salvation issue.

Is soul sleep a Baptist belief anybody? Do Baptists believe that when we die we aren't judged immediately for heaven or hell and enter one of these two states, but rather we sleep until the final judgement with no consciousness or awareness at all?

That would not be consistent with what my Southern Baptists friends believe

 

[Joe]

No, she's concerned people will not be ready to experience the tribulation, because their false theology has convinced them that they won't have to face it.

http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm

I believe she held both beliefs from what I recall. They do coincide with one another.
Gotta go to work now. Thanks for the chat Hope we talk later
I wish I could call you mrs tumnus but that won't work

 

[annsni]

Is soul sleep a Baptist belief anybody? Do Baptists believe that when we die we aren't judged immediately for heaven or hell and enter one of these two states, but rather we sleep until the final judgement with no consciousness or awareness at all?

That would not be consistent with what my Southern Baptists friends believe

I do not believe in soul sleep at all. Jesus told the man on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise" - not later. Paul also says in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. " Being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

However, it is not our BODY that is present with the Lord at our death - and that is what will raise later when Jesus returns. We will be reunited with our new glorified bodies at that time.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Do you have the scripture reference for 'the dead know not anything'?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[DHK]

So your doctrine would be that the apostles were the authority for doctrine until they died, and then the Bible became the sole authority?

Can you provide the scripture reference that indicates that this change in authority would occur at the death of the apostles?

Jesus performed miracles that never can be duplicated. They demonstrated his deity. They were miracles like raising Lazarus from the dead, walking on water, feeding of the 5,000, the miraculous catch of fish, etc.

The Apostles were able to heal the sick, give sight to the blind, cast out demons, and occasionally raise the dead. They also had the power to do miracles. These miracles were signs given to them to verify that they were indeed true Apostles of Christ, and that their message was the true message of Christ. Here is what the Bible says:

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

"By them that heard him" is a direct reference to the Apostles. Signs and wonders, miracles and the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given specifically to the Apostles as a sign that they were the true Apostles and that their message was the true message from God.
Primarily it was to convince the Jews. Especially the gift of tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I will speak unto "this people" which is Israel. He quotes out the law, specifically Isaiah 28. The "wherefore" of verse 22 connects the two versese together. Tongues are a sign to unbelieving Jews. That is the context. It is a sign to the unbelieving Jews of the first century by the Apostles to whom they were given.
In the three instances of speaking of tongues given in the book of Acts--chapters 2, 10, and 19, all three of these events had these conditions present.

History tells us that by the end of the first century tongues had ceased. They had served its purpose. The Jews had rejected the signs and miracles, and tongues in particular, and judgment came upon them in the form of Titus destroying Jerusalem and in particular their Temple. And Israel was thus scattered. The prophecy in Isaiah 28 had been fulfilled.
1Cor. 13:8 tells us that tongues, prophecy, and (revelatory) knowledge would cease, and they did.

Now:
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God spoke in different ways in OT times to His people--visions, audibly, dreams, theophanies, etc.
Now, in these last days God speaks to His people through His Son. Who is that? He speaks to us through His Word which reveals to us His Son. Everything that we need to know about Jesus Christ is contained in the NT, which was written down by eyewitnesses of the Lord.
The Apostles are dead; but the Word of God lives on forever, especially the words of our Lord, and his apostles.

 

[mrtumnus]

I do not believe in soul sleep at all. Jesus told the man on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise" - not later. Paul also says in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. " Being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

However, it is not our BODY that is present with the Lord at our death - and that is what will raise later when Jesus returns. We will be reunited with our new glorified bodies at that time.

So are those in heaven dead or alive, according to NT scripture?

 

[mrtumnus]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So do you believe in soul-sleep as well?

Because this scripture doesn't indicate that they know nothing about those of us still on earth, but rather than they know nothing. Period.

Also, does Hebrews not teach that we are surrounded by this great crowd of witnesses? How can they 'surround' us if they are not aware of us?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No, I do not believe in soul sleep. At time of death, the spirit returns to the Lord, the body goes to the grave.

 

[annsni]

So are those in heaven dead or alive, according to NT scripture?

Those in heaven are alive but their bodies are dead and rotting.

 

[Frogman]

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Case closed.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen! Selah! Amen!!

 

[Just As I Am]

Thank you to all who have participated, especially to Mr Tumnus for the link to Corrie Ten Boom's writing. Believe it or not, this debate has been a blessing to me!

:love2:

 

[annsni]

OK - This is totally off topic but I have to ask before I go to bed and you all start posting....

WHAT are you doing up in the middle of the night???? I see so many of these posts - GodlyWoman and others - posting at 3AM and such!! Don't you people SLEEP??????

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

[DHK]

OK - This is totally off topic but I have to ask before I go to bed and you all start posting....

WHAT are you doing up in the middle of the night???? I see so many of these posts - GodlyWoman and others - posting at 3AM and such!! Don't you people SLEEP??????

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Some of it is time difference. What you posted at 10:18 is only 8:18 where I live. You live in NY out on the east coast. There is three hour difference between you and those who live in California.

 

[DHK]

Thank you to all who have participated, especially to Mr Tumnus for the link to Corrie Ten Boom's writing. Believe it or not, this debate has been a blessing to me!

:love2:

Welcome to BB Just As I Am. Feel free to jump in the waters at any time. Trust that they won't be too rough for you.

 

[annsni]

Some of it is time difference. What you posted at 10:18 is only 8:18 where I live. You live in NY out on the east coast. There is three hour difference between you and those who live in California.

That I understand but I think GodlyWoman is in my time zone!

 

[DHK]

That I understand but I think GodlyWoman is in my time zone!

I don't know about her (posting); but this one thing I do know--she won't be posting any more.

 

[annsni]

I don't know about her (posting); but this one thing I do know--she won't be posting any more.

I just saw that. I pray that she's learned something and will open her Bible rather than the catechism.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

OK - This is totally off topic but I have to ask before I go to bed and you all start posting....

WHAT are you doing up in the middle of the night???? I see so many of these posts - GodlyWoman and others - posting at 3AM and such!! Don't you people SLEEP??????

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

I have required little sleep ever since my circus days back when I was a teen. Four years of traveling the roads with Hoxie Brothers Circus with only 3 hours of sleep a night and an occasional catnap conditioned me to accept little sleep.

When you see me posting at 2, 3 or even 4 AM, I really am posting that early... as is my wife as well who has grown accustomed to sleeping until noon on some days.

We both are retired and able to stay up whenever we want.

 

[annsni]

I have required little sleep ever since my circus days back when I was a teen. Four years of traveling the roads with Hoxie Brothers Circus with only 3 hours of sleep a night and an occasional catnap conditioned me to accept little sleep.

When you see me posting at 2, 3 or even 4 AM, I really am posting that early... as is my wife as well who has grown accustomed to sleeping until noon on some days.

We both are retired and able to stay up whenever we want.

MAN! I can use some of that!! LOL! But I'm with your wife - I sleep in. Usually until 9 AM now that my little ones can make their own breakfast!