Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE

[BobRyan]

Indeed - scripture is always "true" -

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


1 John 3
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.





1 John 5

Overcoming the World


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. [/quote]


Is it any surprise that Paul is in full agreement with John on this post-cross requirement to ”keep the commandments of God”?


1 Cor 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

James 1

21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,'' you are doing well.


9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Our legalistic friends produce smoke and mirrors in order to get around the fact that the Scriptures cleary deny justification by works of the law or doing the TEN COMMANDMENTS. (we are not saying the ten commandments are done away as the moral standard of right and wrong).

They argue that the "law" or "works" or "deeds" that do not justify anyone is the Torah or Mosaic legislation of ceremonial and civil law given to Israel as a "covenant" rather than the universal moral Ten commandments.

However, what they fail to understand is that the ten commandments is the basis for that covenant and ALL of the law is inseparably to the Ten commandments as all other ceremonial and civil laws are but extensions of the Ten Commandments as the moral principles applied in ceremonial and civil laws. To do away with the covenant as a MEANS OF JUSTIFICATION is to do away with the TEN COMMANDMENTS as a MEANS OF JUSTIFICATION. This is simple to prove.


1. Jesus dealt with the same kind of Jews and the same law as did Paul and spoke of the same law the Jews were attempting to gain eternal life by as did Paul and Jesus said that ALL the law and prophets hung on the two summarizations of the ten commandments:

Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mt.22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Lk 10:25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

mT. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. - Mt. 7:12


2. This is the very same Law that Paul claims to be now DELIVERED FROM because as a pharisee, this is the SAME LAW he attempted to be justified by observing but was only condemned by. This is the SAME LAW that he said was designed to reveal the knowledge of sin:

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without [B]the law [/B]is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The law in Romans 3:20 provides knowledge of sin just as the law in Romans 7:6-7 provides knowledge of sin. It is the same law and it is univeral "whole world" (Rom. 3:19) and includes the ten commandments (Rom. 7:7). The law in Romans 3:19-21 ("the law and the prophets") is the SAME LAW Jesus mentions in Mt. 22:40 or "the law and the prophets" which he summarizes under the Ten commandments.

This is the SAME LAW - summarized under the TEN COMMANDMENTS that Paul says that no flesh, no man is justified by doing its deeds or commands:

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

This is the SAME LAW containing the Ten Commandments in Gal. 3:10-12 that Paul attempted to observe and was CURSED instead of blessed with justification in Romans 7:7-11. Paul is addressing SAVED CHURCH MEMBERS not the lost in Galatians.

This Mosaic Law in its covenant form is nothing more than the EXPANSION of the Ten Commandments written on the conscience of Gentiles which Christ reduces unto TWO summary statements of the TEN COMMANDMENTS. This is the law that has been done away with in regard to JUSTIFICATION.

However, it has not been done away with as God's moral standard and never will be done away with as God's moral standard.

Now our legalistic friends will take this post and dice it and divide it into little statements they can jerk other scriptures from context and attempt to disprove what I have said. However, when all the above scriptures are TAKEN TOGETHER you will see they are inseparable because they are defined by characteristics they all have in common with each other, the most important of which is they are all inclusive of the TEN COMMANDMENTS as the primary base for each.

This evidence completely refutes the whole soteriology of our legalistic friends as their whole system of soteriology demands that they reject "the law" in Romans 3:19-21 and in Galatians 3:10-13 to be obedience to the TEN COMMANDMENTS as a means of justification before God.

 

[Andre]

I also keep my Father's commandments because I love Him.

The huge detail that is being missed here is that any of our "keeping of our Father's commandments" DO NOT JUSTIFY!

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

This has already been addressed in detail. As per the post I referred you to - I believe it was post 46 - Paul is not denying justification by "good works" here, he is denying justification by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

You really need to deal with my argument. We have of course, the parallel and related question as to whether it is even possible to deny justification by the works of Torah while affirming justification by good works. You appear to believe that this combination is incoherent.

I have argued that it is indeed coherent to deny that the Law of Moses justifies while affirming (ultimate) justification by good works.

But I am prepared to argue the point in more detail.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The only thing you have proven is that you know how to distort, pervert and read into the term "law" what is not there. The law of Moses is the Ten commandments and every other law hangs on them and is merely an expansion of them. Jesus repeatedly says this. Both passages quoted by Steaver correctly deny obedience to the TEN comandments as a means for justification before God as this is the exact same law in Romans 7:6-11 that the JEW Paul could not be justified under "THOU SHALT NOT COVET".

This has already been addressed in detail. As per the post I referred you to - I believe it was post 46 - Paul is not denying justification by "good works" here, he is denying justification by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

You really need to deal with my argument. We have of course, the parallel and related question as to whether it is even possible to deny justification by the works of Torah while affirming justification by good works. You appear to believe that this combination is incoherent.

I have argued that it is indeed coherent to deny that the Law of Moses justifies while affirming (ultimate) justification by good works.

But I am prepared to argue the point in more detail.

 

[Andre]

Our legalistic friends produce smoke and mirrors in order to get around the fact that the Scriptures cleary deny justification by works of the law or doing the TEN COMMANDMENTS. (we are not saying the ten commandments are done away as the moral standard of right and wrong).

They argue that the "law" or "works" or "deeds" that do not justify anyone is the Torah or Mosaic legislation of ceremonial and civil law given to Israel as a "covenant" rather than the universal moral Ten commandments.

Well you are making a generalization here about we "legalists". Perhaps others are drawing a distinction between the 10 commandments and the "ceremonial" law. I certainly am not.

There is no "smoke and mirrors" in my position (which, of course, I believe to be Paul's argument), although these issues are not easy and perhaps more explanation is needed.

It is clear from passages like the one at the end of Romans 3 and the beginning of Romans 4 (and all of Romans 9) that Paul is centrally concerned with advancing the argument that, despite what many Jews (and perhaps Gentiles) might believe, the true family of God is not limited to Jews to the exclusion of Gentiles.

So what does Paul do to advance his argument? He argues that the works of the Law of Moses do not justify. This is, of course, a way of making his point - if doing the Law of Moses did indeed justify, then the only people who could possibly be justified would be the ones who are under the Law of Moses.

That is, the Jews.

You seem to assume that the 10 commandments were given as a universal moral law.

They were not - they were given to the nation of Israel only. Does this mean that I am saying that God thinks its OK for non-Jews to murder, commit adultery, etc.

Of course not - the fact that the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments - were given to the nation of Israel only, does not mean that other people are morally free to do whatever they want.

The Law of Moses was an ethnic charter for the Jews - it marked them out as a special people. So now that Paul believes that all men - Jew and Gentile alike are to be understood as being in God's family, he (Paul) makes the perfect argument against special status for the Jew.

That is, he denies that the works of the Law of Moses justify the Jew.

I will address other elements of your post later.

 

[Andre]

The only thing you have proven is that you know how to distort, pervert and read into the term "law" what is not there.

Please engage the actual content of my argument and try to leave insulting tactics behind. My argument is what it is: please engage it on its own terms.

The law of Moses is the Ten commandments and every other law hangs on them and is merely an expansion of them. Jesus repeatedly says this.

I agree that the Law of Moses includes the 10 commandments, and I agree that the other elements of the Law hang on them.

You seem to think that my position is self-contradictory, that if I agree that the Law of Moses does not justify, I am effectively subverting my assertion that good works do indeed justify, because the Law of Moses is structured around the doing of good works.

My position is actually not self-contradictory although I concede that how this all works out may be not at all obvious.

I shall endeavour to come up with a tight and hopefully clear explanation as to how one can agree with Paul that the Law of Moses does not justify, yet also agree with him that good works do.

 

[Dr. Walter]

A "jew" is simply that portion of mankind that believe in justification by works of the law - God's Law - preeminently the Ten commandments.

When Paul says you are not justified by the works of the law, he is saying you are not justified by commandment keeping primarily seen in the ten commandments.

The Ten commandments are universal as they are written on the conscience of every man. Just as Jesus reduces all the law and the prophets into two summary statements of the two tablets and further reduces all the law and the prophet to one word "love" so what is written upon the conscience of all mankind is that same law in reduced form.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The WHOLE WORLD not merely the Jews are under the law which is expanded under Moses by "the law and the prophets." EVERY MOUTH not merely Jewish mouths.

To become a Jew or to commit to circumcision is nothing more or less to commit to a LIFE OF COMMANDMENT KEEPING in order to be justified by the works of the law. This is how Paul, a JEW attempted in Romans 7:6-11 tried to be justified but came under the curse of the TENTH COMMANDMENT, the very same curse he speaks of in Galatians 3:10-12 as it is the very SAME LAW in both passages.

Please engage the actual content of my argument and try to leave insulting tactics behind. My argument is what it is: please engage it on its own terms.


I agree that the Law of Moses includes the 10 commandments, and I agree that the other elements of the Law hang on them.

You seem to think that my position is self-contradictory, that if I agree that the Law of Moses does not justify, I am effectively subverting my assertion that good works do indeed justify, because the Law of Moses is structured around the doing of good works.

My position is actually not self-contradictory although I concede that how this all works out may be not at all obvious.

I shall endeavour to come up with a tight and hopefully clear explanation as to how one can agree with Paul that the Law of Moses does not justify, yet also agree with him that good works do.

 

[Chowmah]

Our legalistic friends produce smoke and mirrors in order.....

Now our legalistic friends will take this post .....

This is somethin i guess i dont quite get. Ive stated time and time again that we are saved by grace through faith. No other way. But there are so many other things that we are commanded to do. Why should they be ignored. You call me legallistic for believing these scriptures.

I dont intend to stand before Christ and say...Save me Lord! Im an illegallist! I did nothing you commanded me to do

 

[Dr. Walter]

No one has denied that Christians should obey the Lord's commands. However, WHY are you obeying them? If you stand before the Lord and make the profession of those in Matthew 7:21-23 "Lord, Lord....have we not done" IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED or IN ORDER to enter heaven his response will be "depart from me ye workers of iniquity" and not that I ONCE KNEW YOU but "I NEVER KNEW you".

The issue is justification by works. If you believe in justification by works in the sight of God then you are a legalist and the term fits as you do not believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone but you ADD to Christ YOUR PERFORMANCE which is pitiful in comparison and pollutes the grace of God and repudiates Jesus Christ as the sole satisfaction of the laws full demands for righteousenss and sin (Rom. 10:1-4).

This is somethin i guess i dont quite get. Ive stated time and time again that we are saved by grace through faith. No other way. But there are so many other things that we are commanded to do. Why should they be ignored. You call me legallistic for believing these scriptures.

I dont intend to stand before Christ and say...Save me Lord! Im an illegallist! I did nothing you commanded me to do

 

[Andre]

The Ten commandments are universal as they are written on the conscience of every man.

This is not the point - the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments was only given to the nation of Israel. As much as I look in my Bible, I see no evidence at all of hordes of Gentiles waiting for Moses to come down the mountain with the Law of Moses.

The point is this: whether or not elements of the Law of Moses are written on the heart of every human (I have a hard time believing that Sabbath observance is intuitively known to every human, but we'll let that pass), statements that the "Law of Moses" do not justify are statement that salvation is not limited to Jews, even though there may some "universality" in the Law of Moses.

I realize that an explanation for this is needed. I shall endeavour to produce one.

 

[Chowmah]

Mt.22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

MATT.22 [35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?[37] Jesus said unto him, THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THY HEART, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.[38] This is the first and great commandment.[39] And the second is like unto it, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Why Dr Walters do you believe that we no longer need keep Gods commandments (including His sabbath) because of what Jesus said in Matthew?

DEUT.6 [5] And THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THINE HEART, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.[6] And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart [17] Ye shall diligently KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

Jesus was only quoting scriptures from the old testament. And as you can see in above scripture the way to love GOD is to keep diligently the commandments. That includes the 4th

1JOHN 5 [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And the new testament verifies the old testament as to how we are to show our love for God? In the new testament book of John. When we love God, we keep His commandments.

LEV.19 [17] Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.[18] Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF: I am the LORD.

Again (thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself) Jesus is quoting scripture from the old testament. Do you agree that the people who lived in old testament times were under the 10 commandments. Of course they were. So why when Jesus quotes old testament scripture do you think the 10 commandments are now done away with?

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] AND THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

In John, you can read how we are to love our neighbour according to the NEW TESTAMENT. It’s the same way that it says in the old testament. KEEP GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS.

Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your words have a ring of sincerity and I appreciate that. However, why not accept Paul's explanation in Romans 3:19-21 wherein he bluntly, explicitly and clearly without any ambiguity says "THE WHOLE WORLD" is under the law and "EVERY MOUTH" is condemned and that "NO FLESH" is justified by keeping the law. These are universals by nature of the terms and therefore "the law" under consdieration is UNIVERSAL by application of these terms to it.

He does not say "THE JEW" or "THE MOUTH OF EVERY JEW" or "JEWISH FLESH"!

He is speaking of "the law" that is universal - the ten commandments as the very same reason he gives for "the law" here - to reveal sin is the very same reason he gives for "the law" in Romans 7:7-11 "I had not know sin but that the law had said "THOU SHALT NOT COVET" - The ten commandments.

The Ten commandments is reduced to TWO summary statements and these TWO summary statements are further reduced to ONE "love" so how difficult is it for you to believe that the TEN COMMANDMENTS can be written upon the conscience of every man including the fourth commandment, when you understand its real bottom line meaning. The fourth commandment is nothing less than the other nine lived out in your life - so that you enter into REST or HARMONY with God as before the fall. The Sabbath commemorated a time when there was no sin and all of creation was at REST and in HARMONY with their Creator. How is that attained? By repenting of your sins and believing in Jesus Christ as the promised REST that brings PEACE between you and God.

However, regardless of the fourth commandment, Jesus provides how the ten commandments should be interpreted in Mathew 5 and those principles are enscribed upon the conscience of every human and the gentile violates the ten commandments according to the LIGHT given him whereas the Jew is given MORE LIGHT in regard to them but the SAME LAW.

Why not just accept Paul's explanation in Romans 3:19-21????????? Any explanation that contradicts the UNIVERSALS he gives will only be man invented and wrong!

This is not the point - the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments was only given to the nation of Israel. As much as I look in my Bible, I see no evidence at all of hordes of Gentiles waiting for Moses to come down the mountain with the Law of Moses.

The point is this: whether or not elements of the Law of Moses are written on the heart of every human (I have a hard time believing that Sabbath observance is intuitively known to every human, but we'll let that pass), statements that the "Law of Moses" do not justify are statement that salvation is not limited to Jews, even though there may some "universality" in the Law of Moses.

I realize that an explanation for this is needed. I shall endeavour to produce one.

 

[Andre]

Your words have a ring of sincerity and I appreciate that. However, why not accept Paul's explanation in Romans 3:19-21 wherein he bluntly, explicitly and clearly without any ambiguity says "THE WHOLE WORLD" is under the law and "EVERY MOUTH" is condemned and that "NO FLESH" is justified by keeping the law. These are universals by nature of the terms and therefore "the law" under consdieration is UNIVERSAL by application of these terms to it.

I disagree that Paul is suggesting any kind of universal law here.

Here is Romans 3:19 in the NASB:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Now people will argue that Paul cannot mean “Law of Moses” (Torah) here when he uses the tem “law”. That argument goes like this: The “so that” connective strongly implies that “law” is something that all mankind is under. So since Torah is for Jews only, Paul must be referring here to some general principle of law, and not Torah.

I think that this is a mistake for at least three reasons:

1. Paul almost always uses the word “Law” to denote the Law of Moses, so why we would he do otherwise here?

2. The phrase “it says to those under the law” strongly suggests that he is talking about a “law” that is limited in its applicability. Otherwise, this qualifier is entirely unnecessary;

3. The context provided by verses 1-18 support a “Torah” reading, specific to Jews, for the word “law”

I will not make the case for point number 1 right here – that would be too lengthy a treatment and that case is made elsewhere. Point 2, I suggest, requires no further elaboration. So I now turn to point number 3 in relation to the understandable objection that it seems that the “so that the whole world….” clause makes it clear that this is some kind of universal law.

So why does he then talk about the whole world being accountable to God if “law” here is Torah, which is for Jews only. One needs to look at the preceding 18 verses where Paul has engaged in separate treatments of Jew and Gentile being sinners.

Here is the important point: He has just finished (in verses 9-18) an argument that the Gentile is a sinner just like the Jew. So his statement about the whole world being accountable is not only in relation to what he has just written about the Law - that could not be true since the Gentiles were never under the Law - but it is rather the capstone of his whole argument.

So Paul's basic point is this:

1. The Jews have been faithless (verses 1-8);

2. The Gentiles, too, are sinners (verses 9-18);

3. While the Law speaks only to those under the Law - the Jews - the whole world nevertheless stands condemned before God.

Besides, we know from later in the chapter that Paul sees the law of Moses as only for Jews. Otherwise, verse 29 makes no sense at all.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too

Here at least, it is clear that "law" is referring to something that only the Jew is under.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Why do you want to keep the commandments? Out of love? In order to be justified and enter heaven? What is your motive?

The Bible approves keeping them out of love but the Bible does not approve of keeping them in order to justify yourself before God and enter into heaven BECAUSE that is rejection of God's provision in the Person and work of Jesus Christ "for us" and our justification.

The Jews you mention below came with the wrong reason. They thought they could KEEP the law for justification and that is like beating your head against a stone wall - it won't work. However, in attempting to do so is the best way to show it won't work becuase you always COME SHORT of keeping it according to its demands and to violate it in "ONE POINT" is to violate all of it. James said this to professing Christians not lost people.

MATT.22 [35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?[37] Jesus said unto him, THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THY HEART, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.[38] This is the first and great commandment.[39] And the second is like unto it, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Why Dr Walters do you believe that we no longer need keep Gods commandments (including His sabbath) because of what Jesus said in Matthew?

DEUT.6 [5] And THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THINE HEART, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.[6] And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart [17] Ye shall diligently KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

Jesus was only quoting scriptures from the old testament. And as you can see in above scripture the way to love GOD is to keep diligently the commandments. That includes the 4th

1JOHN 5 [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And the new testament verifies the old testament as to how we are to show our love for God? In the new testament book of John. When we love God, we keep His commandments.

LEV.19 [17] Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.[18] Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF: I am the LORD.

Again (thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself) Jesus is quoting scripture from the old testament. Do you agree that the people who lived in old testament times were under the 10 commandments. Of course they were. So why when Jesus quotes old testament scripture do you think the 10 commandments are now done away with?

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] AND THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

In John, you can read how we are to love our neighbour according to the NEW TESTAMENT. It’s the same way that it says in the old testament. KEEP GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS.

Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

 

[Chowmah]

Your words have a ring of sincerity and I appreciate that. However, why not accept Paul's explanation in Romans 3:19-21 wherein he bluntly, explicitly and clearly without any ambiguity says "THE WHOLE WORLD" is under the law and "EVERY MOUTH" is condemned and that "NO FLESH" is justified by keeping the law.

Lets just look at what law Romans 3:19 is talking about. It begins with...

Romans 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Lets look how it ends

Romans 3:29-31
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The fact that the law of circumcision was no longer to be followed was a biggie for the Jews to handle. Its discussed in many of the books of the new testament. The whole book of Galations is about circumcision. Could you imagine how much discussion would have taken place if the Jews were told they no longer had to keep Gods sabbath day. It would be discussed in detail in all the books. Yet....not a word about it. Not one discussion.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Reformed Baptist...

Concerning the truth that salvation is by faith in Christ alone, you said...

"though nowhere in the bible will you find that phrase stated in that manner.

Stated in that manner???


Thats nothing but a silly response.

Where in the scriptures does it clearly say, in this manner....

God is a Trinity

It doesnt...so do you deny the truth?

Of course you dont, because the whole of the scriptures testify to the truth that God is Triune in nature. Because of that we know it is true.

Same with justification by faith in Christ ALONE

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Reformed Baptist...

Concerning the truth that salvation is by faith in Christ alone, you said...



Stated in that manner???


Thats nothing but a silly response.

Where in the scriptures does it clearly say, in this manner....



It doesnt...so do you deny the truth?

Of course you dont, because the whole of the scriptures testify to the truth that God is Triune in nature. Because of that we know it is true.

Same with justification by faith in Christ ALONE

Hey,

I think maybe you addressed this to the wrong person, or misunderstood me. If you took my statement above to mean that because it is not written in the Bible "We are saved in Christ Alone." that this is a reason to reject the doctrine, you missed my point. The point I was making is the same one you made here. The whole of Scripture is teaching that we are saved by grace alone, in Christ alone, through faith alone.

We don't have to find that phrasiology in Scripture to recognize it.

So, I think you greatly misunderstood me.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You go to an awful lot of trouble to deny the obvious. "The law" is the same law written upon the conscience of gentiles- the same law except in a condensed unwritten form. This fact destroys your whole argument.

I have repeatedly proven over and over again in numerous posts that are yet unanswered, that

1. Jesus reduced what he calls "the law and the prophets" or the WHOLE MOSAIC JEWISH COVENANT down to two succinct statements which are merely summary expositions of the first and second tablet of the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

2. Jesus further reduced these two succinct summary statments of the Ten commandments down to one word "love"

3. This is the same exact law in Romans 3:19-21 where in verse 21 we read again "the law and the prophets"

4. This is the same exact law in Romans 7:6-11

5. This is the same exact law in Galations 3:10-13

6. This is the same exact law in Romans 2:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the (Mosaic) law, do by nature the things contained in the (Mosaic) law, these, having not the (Mosaic) law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the (Mosaic) law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Andre, Jesus reduces the essence of Mosaic law down to one word "love" and says that "ALL of the law and prophets" hang on that. He reduces the Mosaic law down to two principles that summarize both tablets of the ten commandments.

"NO FLESH" does not mean simply JEWISH flesh.
"WHOLE WORLD" does not mean simply Jewish world
"EVERY MOUTH" does not mean simply Jewish mouth.

Romans 3:9 says that Paul already had proven that both Jews and Gentiles were sinners. Romans 3:10-18 is simply a Biblical explanation of the extent of sin in the Gentile and Jews or "the whole world."

I disagree that Paul is suggesting any kind of universal law here.

Here is Romans 3:19 in the NASB:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Now people will argue that Paul cannot mean “Law of Moses” (Torah) here when he uses the tem “law”. That argument goes like this: The “so that” connective strongly implies that “law” is something that all mankind is under. So since Torah is for Jews only, Paul must be referring here to some general principle of law, and not Torah.

I think that this is a mistake for at least three reasons:

1. Paul almost always uses the word “Law” to denote the Law of Moses, so why we would he do otherwise here?

2. The phrase “it says to those under the law” strongly suggests that he is talking about a “law” that is limited in its applicability. Otherwise, this qualifier is entirely unnecessary;

3. The context provided by verses 1-18 support a “Torah” reading, specific to Jews, for the word “law”

I will not make the case for point number 1 right here – that would be too lengthy a treatment and that case is made elsewhere. Point 2, I suggest, requires no further elaboration. So I now turn to point number 3 in relation to the understandable objection that it seems that the “so that the whole world….” clause makes it clear that this is some kind of universal law.

So why does he then talk about the whole world being accountable to God if “law” here is Torah, which is for Jews only. One needs to look at the preceding 18 verses where Paul has engaged in separate treatments of Jew and Gentile being sinners.

Here is the important point: He has just finished (in verses 9-18) an argument that the Gentile is a sinner just like the Jew. So his statement about the whole world being accountable is not only in relation to what he has just written about the Law - that could not be true since the Gentiles were never under the Law - but it is rather the capstone of his whole argument.

So Paul's basic point is this:

1. The Jews have been faithless (verses 1-8);

2. The Gentiles, too, are sinners (verses 9-18);

3. While the Law speaks only to those under the Law - the Jews - the whole world nevertheless stands condemned before God.

Besides, we know from later in the chapter that Paul sees the law of Moses as only for Jews. Otherwise, verse 29 makes no sense at all.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too

Here at least, it is clear that "law" is referring to something that only the Jew is under.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No sir, it begins in Romans 1:18 and extends to Romans 3:21. If you will look at Romans 3:9 Paul will tell you what he has attempted to prove concerning both Gentiles and jews and so he does not start in Romans 3:1 with either the Jews or Gentiles. He starts in Romans 1:19-2:1 in proving there are no gentiles that are righteous. He starts in Romans 2:17-3:8 in proving there are no Jews that are righteous.

Romans 3:1-2 simply explains the advantage of jews having MORE LIGHT than the Gentile. The Gentiles have the law of God written on their conscience but no written book revealing God's will in detail and applying it to every aspect of the jewish life in detail. But the SAME law summarized in the conscience of the Gentile is expanded in the law of Moses.

Hence, both Jew and Gentile or "THE WHOLE WORLD" is under the SAME LAW when you reduce it to its bottom line principle - love God with all your being and love man as yourself. Jesus says that "the law and the prophets" or the WHOLE MOSAIC ECONOMY/COVENANT teaches nothing more or less.

Hence, "NO FLESH" whether jew and Gentile can be justified by responding and trying to obey "the law" whether written in your conscience or written and spelled out in detail by Moses.

Hence, "EVERY MOUTH" whether Jew or Gentile is condemned under the SAME LAW whether it is written in concience or in stone or on parchment and skins.

This law is the the law which REVEALS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN and therefore if it is not the law written in conscience or expanded upon stone and parchment then the Gentiles could not be held accountable for sin - because where there is no law there is no sin as sin is the transgression of "the law."

Lets just look at what law Romans 3:19 is talking about. It begins with...

Romans 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Lets look how it ends

Romans 3:29-31
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The fact that the law of circumcision was no longer to be followed was a biggie for the Jews to handle. Its discussed in many of the books of the new testament. The whole book of Galations is about circumcision. Could you imagine how much discussion would have taken place if the Jews were told they no longer had to keep Gods sabbath day. It would be discussed in detail in all the books. Yet....not a word about it. Not one discussion.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Reformed Baptist...

MY MISTAKE! Sorry.

It was the poster you were interacting with that made the statement about the scriptures not teaching faith alone.

He was quoting you. Thats where I got your name from.

Thats what I get for posing when I was sleepy!.

Sorry!