Jesus, The Sin-Offering for the Whole World.

[SavedByGrace]

Here again is the straight up denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5

Of course our election for salvation is through or by reason of faith in the truth. God chooses those who have faith in the truth, who are rich in faith, and who love God.

Just read the passages folks....

Certain people are blinded by their theology like the Calvinist

 

[Dave G]

Just read the passages folks....

I have.
Faith is authored and finished by Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

Therefore, one cannot be chosen rich in something that emanated from God, without the Lord giving it to someone.
According to the Bible, faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ), not a work of the flesh.
Therefore, if the Lord chose a person based on something they did or had, that would be unfair to those that didn't have it or couldn't / wouldn't do it.

Merited versus unmerited favor.

It seems you keep categorizing the gift of eternal life as something that can be merited, Van.
Can you not see the significance of it?

 

[Dave G]

Did you read the OP

Yes, I did.

 

[Dave G]

Certain people are blinded by their theology like the Calvinist

Certain people stumble at the word, whereunto they were appointed ( 1 Peter 2:8 )?
I agree, sir.

It saddens me to see so many who stumble at that Stumbling stone and Rock of offense,
And at His words.

 

[Van]

it means SIN OFFERING!

Christ laid down His life as the Lamb of God, the sin offering for all humankind, and when God accepted His sacrifice for sin, Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all humankind.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Certain people stumble at the word, whereunto they were appointed ( 1 Peter 2:8 )?
I agree, sir.

It saddens me to see so many who stumble at that Stumbling stone and Rock of offense,
And at His words.

They stumbled because of their disobedience

 

[Dave G]

They stumbled because of their disobedience

I disagree.
It says they were disobedient and that they were appointed to stumble, not that it led to their stumbling at the word.
But I do see, in the light of Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and many more, why men stumble at His words.
John 8:43-47 comes to mind.

Also,
Because the carnal mind is at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ) and the natural man does not welcome the things of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 );
Such as His word.

Yet the passage very plainly states that they were appointed to stumble, does it not?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I agree.
See Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and many more reasons that men stumble at His words.
Because the carnal mind is at enmity with God ( Romans 8 ) and the natural man does not welcome the things of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

Yet the passage very plainly states that they were appointed to stumble, does it not?

The result of their disobedience caused them to stumble to which they were appointed. Because of their unbelief. No mention about God causing their stumbling

 

[Dave G]

The result of their disobedience caused them to stumble to which they were appointed. Because of their unbelief. No mention about God causing their stumbling

Read it again, SBG.
I've edited it.

Here, I'll post the verse in question so that you can review it:

" Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." ( 1 Peter 2:8 ).

To me, it is plain.
They were appointed to stumble at His words,
just as believers ( God's elect ) were not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation by their Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ).


Good evening to you, sir.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Read it again, SBG.
I've edited it.

Good evening to you, sir.

More like good night from old England

 

[Van]

No denial. How many times do you have to read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 before you admit it says nothing about conditional election. Pick any translation, you cannot find your assertion in the text. Therefore you are inserting into the text in order to extrapolate your theory.
Now, show us the specific translation that actually says election is conditional.

Here we have the straight-up denial of scripture, chosen for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth.

 

[Van]

Certain people are blinded by their theology like the Calvinist

Innuendo without truth is like falsehood for falsehood's sake.

 

[Van]

Dave G, posted: (My response in Red.)
Faith is authored and finished by Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ). Not the verse cited. We put our faith in Christ, thus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith.

Therefore, one cannot be chosen rich in something that emanated from God, without the Lord giving it to someone. Absurd and bogus claim. Nonsense in defense of nonsense.
According to the Bible, faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ), not a work of the flesh. How was a person chosen for salvation through or by reason of faith, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Here pre-election faith is claimed to be post-salvation faith. More nonsense.
Therefore, if the Lord chose a person based on something they did or had, that would be unfair to those that didn't have it or couldn't / wouldn't do it. God is never "unfair."

Merited versus unmerited favor. Did anyone say the faith God credits as righteousness was already meritoriously righteous? Nope.

It seems you keep categorizing the gift of eternal life as something that can be merited, Van.
Can you not see the significance of it? It seem Calvinists love to charge opponents with works salvation. Falsehood in support of falsehood ring a bell?

 

[AustinC]

Here we have the straight-up denial of scripture, chosen for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth.

Indeed, you deny that the text does not say anything about conditional election.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Please show us where election is conditional in this verse.

Be honest, you are looking for a very specific English translation that you can then say the concept is implied, but not actually stated.

Every person at the BB has been in opposition to your theory on textual grounds, yet here you are telling everyone else how we are wrong. Everyone recognizes what the text says and what it doesn't say. At this point, you are just being stubborn.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

that is because you are using the wrong definition for the Greek “ιλασμος”, which I have fully explained in the OP, that the meaning is "sin offering".

The Greek words for 'sin offering' are prosphera peri hamartion, found in Hebrews 10:8 (also contracted to peri hamartion. Also found in the singular, prosphera peri hamartias, in Hebrews 10:18) Another word is thusia peri hamartion, translated as 'sacrifice for sins' but with pretty much the same meaning.
Hilasmos means 'propitiation' which is very similar to 'appeasement,' but not 'means of salvation.' A propitiation is a sacrifice or offering that turns away wrath and/or satisfies justice. If, God forbid, you should upset your wife in some way, you might buy her a bunch of flowers or a box of chocs in order to propitiate her righteous anger and to satisfy her sense of grievance. But of corse, you don't know if mere flowers or chocs are going to satisfy. But we know that God's justice was satisfied by the propitiation achieved by Christ, because it was God who 'set [Him] forth as a propitiation.......... to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Romans 3:25-26).

 

[Reformed1689]

like you and some others on here, JM is viewing salvation as a Calvinist first. There is no way that any honest Christian, without any theological bias, can take the OP, with 5:18-19, to mean anything other than the fact, that Jesus Christ IS the sin offering for every single human being. I have already shown from Luke 22, that Jesus told Judas, that He was going to the cross for his sins also. Yet again, personal theology insists that this is not true!

That is your opinion. But I don't isolate verses. I take Scripture as a whole. Luke 22 literally has no bearing on this subject. You read things into the text because of YOUR theological bias.

 

[Van]

Indeed, you deny that.... SNIP

Every person at the BB has been in opposition to your theory on textual grounds, yet here you are telling everyone else how we are wrong. Everyone recognizes what the text says and what it doesn't say. At this point, you are just being stubborn.

ROFLOL

Anyone who reads 2 Thessalonians 2:13 knows it presents conditional election through or by reason of faith in the truth.

Ditto for James 2:5.

And BTW, when a poster says he knows what everyone thinks you know you are dealing with an infantile mind, with no regard for truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Christ laid down His life as the Lamb of God, the sin offering for all humankind, and when God accepted His sacrifice for sin, Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all humankind.

Half truths are like a gallon of half milk half poison

 

[Van]

Half truths are like a gallon of half milk half poison

Note the complete absence of any specific issue, just a wordy "taint so."

Christ laid down His life as the Lamb of God, the sin offering for all humankind, and when God accepted His sacrifice for sin, Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all humankind.

 

[AustinC]

ROFLOL

Anyone who reads 2 Thessalonians 2:13 knows it presents conditional election through or by reason of faith in the truth.

Ditto for James 2:5.

And BTW, when a poster says he knows what everyone thinks you know you are dealing with an infantile mind, with no regard for truth.

Yet, no one who has read it here at the BB, reads conditional election into the verse. You are the only one. This means you are not correct in your statement. Moreso, you misinterpret the verse itself and do not grasp faith as being authored and finished by God as a gift to all whom He has chosen. No conditions added.