Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

[Alfred Persson.]

Please list the "other books" since you have such a vast knowledge on this subject. They are judged according whether or not their names are written in the Book of Life. That is very obvious from verse 15:

(Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If there are only names in the book of life, explain what " God shall take away his part from the Book of Life" (Rev 22:19 NKJ) means. A "part" is not a name, yet its in the book of life in contradiction to your argument.

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:19 NKJ)

 

[DHK]

If there are only names in the book of life, explain what " God shall take away his part from the Book of Life" (Rev 22:19 NKJ) means. A "part" is not a name, yet its in the book of life in contradiction to your argument.

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:19 NKJ)

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Here is what Barnes says:

Verse 19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy.
If he shall reject the book altogether; if he shall, in transcribing it, designedly strike any part of it out. It is conceivable that, from the remarkable nature of the communications made in this book, and the fact that they seemed to be unintelligible, John supposed there might be those who would be inclined to omit some portions as improbable, or that he apprehended that when the portions which describe Antichrist were fulfilled in distant ages, those to whom those portions applied would be disposed to strike them from the sacred volume, or to corrupt them. He thought proper to guard against this by this solemn declaration of the consequence which would follow such an act. The whole book was to be received--with all its fearful truths--as a revelation from God; and however obscure it might seem, in due time it would be made plain; however faithfully it might depict a fearful apostasy, it was important, both to show the truth of Divine inspiration and to save the church, that these disclosures should be in their native purity in the possession of the people of God.

God shall take away his part out of the book of life. Perhaps there is here an intimation that this would be most likely to be done by those who professed to be Christians, and who supposed that their names were in the book of life. In fact, most of the corruptions of the sacred Scriptures have been attempted by those who have professed some form of Christianity. Infidels have but little interest in attempting such changes, and but little influence to make them received by the church. It is most convenient for them, as it is most agreeable to their feelings, to reject the Bible altogether. When it said here that "God would take away his part out of the book of life," the meaning is not that his name had been written in that book, but that he would take away the part which he might have had, or which he professed to have in that book. Such corruption of the Divine oracles would show that they had no true religion, and would be excluded from heaven. On the phrase "book of life," Cmt. on Re 3:5.


And out of the holy city. Described in chapter 21. He would not be permitted to enter that city; he would have no part among the redeemed.


And from the things which are written in this book. The promises that are made; the glories that are described.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Here is what Barnes says:

Barnes' interpretation is impossible, "God shall take away his part":
1)from the book of life
2)from the holy city
3)from the things which are written in this book

Just as the fool is taking away actual words, so God is taking away actual parts.

Revelation 22:19 is following Deuteronomy and its not about blotting out potential life:

You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, -(Deut 4:2 NKJ)

19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’— was though the drunkard could be included with the sober.
20 “The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven.-(Deut 29:19-20 NKJ)

Same with Barnes eisegesis of Rev 3:5, Christ wouldn't promise "I won't blot out your name" if names can't be blotted out, then He claiming credit for what wouldn't happen anyway; then He is a deceiver:

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev 3:5 NKJ)


Barnes could have spared himself embarrassment had he adopted my view there are three classes of people in the world according to the scriptures: The Righteous, The Wicked, The Middling People.


There is the Elect whose names cannot be blotted out for they are saved from the foundation of the world and have eternal security…for they never would choose to jump out of Christ's hand, a hypothetical they would never do or God wouldn't have elected them.

And there are two groups of "non-elect," the sheep and the goats. The sheep are those whose commitment to Christ in this life is uncertain, hence we read in Hebrews of the danger of falling away into non belief etc and many of require a crisis event to "get off the fence." Hades is that crisis for many of them.

Then there are the wicked who receive eternal punishment.

Had Barnes accepted this outline of humanity he would acknowledge it is possible to blot names out of the book of life just as scripture says., rather than adding his eisegesis to it.

 

[th1bill]

Which view is ugly and inconsistent with the Bible's teaching God is omniscient, infinite in power and wisdom, perfect in all His activity, and personally Merciful, just and love?.

Yes He is and a loving God forces none to do His perfect wil. Those that are in Hell, awaiting the Great White throne Judgment have chosen not to serve God and short of their Final judgment and entry into the Abyss, thatś the end of it all.

Your teaching the man made, Satan inspired lie is ugly! It give license to sin!

 

[DHK]

Barnes' interpretation is impossible, "God shall take away his part":
1)from the book of life
2)from the holy city
3)from the things which are written in this book

Just as the fool is taking away actual words, so God is taking away actual parts.

Revelation 22:19 is following Deuteronomy and its not about blotting out potential life:

You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, -(Deut 4:2 NKJ)

19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’— was though the drunkard could be included with the sober.
20 “The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven.-(Deut 29:19-20 NKJ)

Same with Barnes eisegesis of Rev 3:5, Christ wouldn't promise "I won't blot out your name" if names can't be blotted out, then He claiming credit for what wouldn't happen anyway; then He is a deceiver:

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev 3:5 NKJ)


Barnes could have spared himself embarrassment had he adopted my view there are three classes of people in the world according to the scriptures: The Righteous, The Wicked, The Middling People.

There are not three classes of people. The only ones that believe are the RCC, who believe in a Purgatory. If that is what you believe you are in deep trouble.

There is the Elect

whose names cannot be blotted out for they are saved from the foundation of the world and have eternal security…for they never would choose to jump out of Christ's hand, a hypothetical they would never do or God wouldn't have elected them.

And there are two groups of "non-elect," the sheep and the goats. The sheep are those whose commitment to Christ in this life is uncertain, hence we read in Hebrews of the danger of falling away into non belief etc and many of require a crisis event to "get off the fence." Hades is that crisis for many of them.

There is the elect and the non-elect. If they are non-elect then they are non-elect. You can't have two groups of non-elect. Do you know how foolish that sounds.
Read the context of the event of the sheep and goats.
It is called "the judgment of the nations." You don't seem to know what you are talking about there, and just throw around words indiscriminately.

Then there are the wicked who receive eternal punishment.

All unsaved will receive eternal punishment.

Had Barnes accepted this outline of humanity he would acknowledge it is possible to blot names out of the book of life just as scripture says.

, rather than adding his eisegesis to it.

You are the one with eisigesis and more to spare.
You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

There are not three classes of people. The only ones that believe are the RCC, who believe in a Purgatory. If that is what you believe you are in deep trouble.

I already explained purgatory is wrong on every level.

Protestants are protocatholic in their basic eschatology, reject purgatory but believe everything else older Catholicism taught...that there was no rescue from Hades and all outside their particular sect are damned for all eternity regardless how "righteous" they are.

That's older catholic belief, not Christian.


Christ taught those who were ignorant of Him could still be saved according to their works, if these were equivalent to receiving Him. This is possible because Christ didn't die for us only, but as also for the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2):

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:34-40 NKJ)

THAT is Christian belief.

Not the sectarian stuff Christ never taught.

Whereas Christ said every sin, which includes dying in unbelief, can be forgiven, the older Catholic church and protocatholics reject that, because it weakens their hold on the people:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

While protoCatholics reject indulgences, they haven't rejected tithing (Acts 15:19f) with the same enthusiasm while threatening all who leave with eternal punishment in hell.

So Mother and children aren't all that dissimilar.

What I am proposing, is radically different and fully consistent with Christ and His apostles, albeit not the older Catholic or protocatholic Protestant eschatology that arose centuries later, or anything Catholics believe today.

 

[steaver]

I already explained purgatory is wrong on every level.

Protestants are protocatholic in their basic eschatology, reject purgatory but believe everything else older Catholicism taught...that there was no rescue from Hades and all outside their particular sect are damned for all eternity regardless how "righteous" they are.

That's catholic belief, not Christian.

Christ taught those who were ignorant of Him could still be saved according to their works, if these were equivalent to receiving Him. This is possible because Christ didn't die for us only, but as also for the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2):

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:34-40 NKJ)

THAT is Christian belief.

Not the sectarian stuff Christ never taught.

Whereas Christ said every sin, which includes dying in unbelief, can be forgiven, the older Catholic church and protocatholics reject that, because it weakens their hold on the people:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

While protoCatholics reject indulgences, the equivalent of demanding tithes from those who, if they leave are dammed to hell forever, hasn't been rejected with the same enthusiasm.

So Mother and children aren't all that dissimilar.

What I am proposing, is radically different and fully consistent with Christ and His apostles, albeit not the older Catholic or Protestant eschatology that arose centuries later, or anything Catholics believe today.

Are you of the religion who calls themselves "Jehovah Witnesses" ? I know they falsely teach that those who died rejecting Christ will be given a second chance at their resurrection.

 

[DHK]

I already explained purgatory is wrong on every level.

Protestants are protocatholic in their basic eschatology, reject purgatory but believe everything else Catholicism taught...that there was no rescue from Hades and all outside their particular sect are damned for all eternity regardless how "righteous" they are.

That's catholic belief, not Christian.

Christ taught those who were ignorant of Him could still be saved according to their works, if these were equivalent to receiving Him. This is possible because Christ didn't die for us only, but as also for the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2):

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but only them who call on him, receive him as Savior may be saved. (John 1:12; 3:16-18,36; 5:24; Acts 10:43; 16:30,31; Romans 10:9,10,13; 1Cor.15:1-4; 1John 5:11-13)
--You must appropriate what he has done on the cross to yourself. You are teaching universalism.

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:34-40 NKJ)

THAT is Christian belief.

Not the sectarian stuff Christ never taught.

Jesus never taught works.
He taught: Whosoever hears my word and believes on him that sent me shall have everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life.
--There are no works involved there; only belief or faith.

The scenario that you have referred to from Matthew 25 involves:
First, "my brethren," who are the Jews,
Next you have ignored the context completely.
It takes place right after the coming of Christ and before the Millennial Kingdom. (Christ hasn't come yet).
It is a Judgment of Nations. The criteria are the works or attitude toward the Jews "the brethren" of Jesus. Remember that all are unsaved coming out of the Tribulation. Jesus would be perfectly just and righteous in sending all of them to hell. But he has mercy on them who were friendly to the Jews in the Tribulation Period.

One is never saved by works; always by grace through faith.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but only them who call on him, receive him as Savior may be saved. (John 1:12; 3:16-18,36; 5:24; Acts 10:43; 16:30,31; Romans 10:9,10,13; 1Cor.15:1-4; 1John 5:11-13)
--You must appropriate what he has done on the cross to yourself. You are teaching universalism.

Jesus never taught works.
He taught: Whosoever hears my word and believes on him that sent me shall have everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life.
--There are no works involved there; only belief or faith.

The scenario that you have referred to from Matthew 25 involves:
First, "my brethren," who are the Jews,
Next you have ignored the context completely.
It takes place right after the coming of Christ and before the Millennial Kingdom. (Christ hasn't come yet).
It is a Judgment of Nations. The criteria are the works or attitude toward the Jews "the brethren" of Jesus. Remember that all are unsaved coming out of the Tribulation. Jesus would be perfectly just and righteous in sending all of them to hell. But he has mercy on them who were friendly to the Jews in the Tribulation Period.

One is never saved by works; always by grace through faith.

Matthew 25:34ff doesn't show these calling on Jesus, it shows them being judged by their works and that contradicts your claim "only them who call on him, receive him as Savior may be saved."

They didn't call on Him, they were charitable to other people and didn't recognize Jesus at all:
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

So Jesus did teach works.

Although you misidentify "my brethren" you are partly correct this judgment concerns those still alive at His second coming. But it concerns more than them because the Final Judgment is in view in Mat 25:46

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46-1 NKJ)

Being let into the millennial kingdom doesn't mean they have eternal life, Satan will be loosed from his prison and much of the earth, called Gog and Magog will rebel with him against God. THEN the final judgment were people are either granted eternal life or eternal punishment happens at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, in Rev 20:11-15.

If this judgment saved people and they entered the Kingdom, where the rebels come from in Rev 20:7ff? AND all the other OT texts that prophesy about this end time rebellion.

So being a Judgment of the Nations does not mean it beings and ends before the Millennial, the wording itself suggests a long period of time. A practical matter, billions of people can't be judged in a day, " Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" (1Co 6:2 NKJ) We can't think that fast.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (Mat 25:31-32 NKJ)
The imagery of the conquering King comes in glory, and then sits, and even the separating of sheep and goats in a day (2 Pet 3:8) all imply a duration of time and as verse 25:46 = Rev 20:11-15, this judgment includes Gog and Magog and all those who rose up to help the people of God when they were being persecuted and hurt during that time.

That's why Rev 20:11-12 begins with all physically alive, but spiritually dead. The Dead aren't resurrected unto 20:13.

So your view doesn't fit all of the scripture, mine does and that is why its correct.

 

[DHK]

Matthew 25:34ff doesn't show these calling on Jesus, it shows them being judged by their works and that contradicts your claim "only them who call on him, receive him as Savior may be saved."

This passage is not about SALVATION, it is about JUDGMENT!
The day of salvation has come and gone.

They didn't call on Him, they were charitable to other people and didn't recognize Jesus at all:
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

So Jesus did teach works.

No, he allowed one group to enter the Kingdom based on their attitude toward the Jews. One's attitude reflects much. The goats' attitude reflected hatred and rejection. The sheeps' attitude reflected love, righteousness, reception of Christ. It is on this basis that they were admitted. James taught that the works were evidence of their justification. Paul taught that those type of works were the fruit of the Spirit.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
--The unsaved are referred to as "cursed." They are cast into the same place that are prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
--Only the righteous will go to eternal life. One is made righteous on the basis of belief in Christ, never on works. When Christ returned in all his glory it is most likely that they, along with the Jews, believed at that time. They were the friends of the Jews.

BTW, the word "nations" can just as easily be translated "Gentiles." We do not know if God will do this on an individual basis. It is likely that he will. At the same time there are entire nations that have nothing but hatred toward the Jews, so both can be true at the same time.

No one in the Bible was ever saved by works.

Although you misidentify "my brethren" you are partly correct this judgment concerns those still alive at His second coming. But it concerns more than them because the Final Judgment is in view in Mat 25:46

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46-1 NKJ)

--This is not the final judgment.

Being let into the millennial kingdom doesn't mean they have eternal life, Satan will be loosed from his prison and much of the earth, called Gog and Magog will rebel with him against God. THEN the final judgment were people are either granted eternal life or eternal punishment happens at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, in Rev 20:11-15.

Read John 5:24. I have eternal life right now.
Read about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man has eternal punishment right now. And yet the Final Judgment spoken of in Rev.20:11-15 is yet to come. There does exist a heaven and a hell.

If this judgment saved people and they entered the Kingdom, where the rebels come from in Rev 20:7ff? AND all the other OT texts that prophesy about this end time rebellion.

From the children of those that entered the kingdom without glorified bodies. They were saved, but that doesn't mean all their children would be. One can have many offspring in the space of a thousand years.

So being a Judgment of the Nations does not mean it beings and ends before the Millennial, the wording itself suggests a long period of time. A practical matter, billions of people can't be judged in a day, " Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" (1Co 6:2 NKJ) We can't think that fast.

The saints will have glorified bodies. They will return with Christ from heaven. Read Revelation 19.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (Mat 25:31-32 NKJ)
The imagery of the conquering King comes in glory, and then sits, and even the separating of sheep and goats in a day (2 Pet 3:8) all imply a duration of time and as verse 25:46 = Rev 20:11-15, this judgment includes Gog and Magog and all those who rose up to help the people of God when they were being persecuted and hurt during that time.

Many of those will already be killed off, during the battle of Armeggedon. It will be the survivors of that battle (the goats) and those that did not go up against the Jews that will enter.

Revelation 19:19-21 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That's why Rev 20:11-12 begins with all physically alive, but spiritually dead. The Dead aren't resurrected unto 20:13.

So your view doesn't fit all of the scripture, mine does and that is why its correct.

--They will all be physically alive and spiritually dead. Spiritually dead means unsaved. And all the unsaved will be cast into the Lake of Fire. One cannot be saved by works. Your paradigm has no basis in Scripture but contradicts it.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

This passage is not about SALVATION, it is about JUDGMENT!
The day of salvation has come and gone.
No, he allowed one group to enter the Kingdom based on their attitude toward the Jews.

Everything you say about this rests upon "My brethren" being the Jews, if they are not, then everything you say is wrong.

So I'll focus on that error.

1)Christ is speaking to Jews, not Gentiles which fact renders your interpretation absurd:

Christ would not tell JEWS they will be judged by how they treat themselves:
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these JEWS, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:40 NKJ)

45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these (JEWS), you did not do it to Me.' (Mat 25:45 NKJ)


2)Verse 46, coming as it does no the heels of verse 45 proves this is about eternal salvation, not a temporary judgment:

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NKJ)

Never does scripture say eternal life is dependent upon how we treat the Jews.

Its not "treat the Jews well and you will be saved"; or
"Treat the Jews well and you will enter the millennial kingdom",

Neither gospel is found in the New Testament, proving its not there.

When a text makes plain sense we are not to seek another sense.

The plain sense of Matthew 25:31ff is that Christ will judge the billions left alive after the Antichrist and plagues, who see Him come in power with His angels and set up His Kingdom (Rev 1:7), differently than those who had believed in Him before He came having faith in God's promises even though all was unseen....All saved by grace and not works through faith (=the Church) were already raptured BEFORE Christ descended upon the earth...and they reign with Christ as kings and priests in the Millennial Kingdom He is setting up.

When the Church was saved by grace through faith and not works, it was a different dispensation; Once Christ arrives, He is seen, one cannot hope in the unseen, which is the substance of saving faith. Therefore a different dispensation has begun:


You cannot exercise saving faith hoping in the unseen after it has arrived and is seen:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 NKJ)

Those left alive after the antichrist and plagues etc. could not have faith in Christ the same way believers could before Christ came.


Prior to Christ's coming, one could have believe in Him and be saved, because one is trusting God and not in what one sees. After Christ comes, all that is impossible, Christ is seen.

Therefore they cannot be saved THROUGH FAITH (Eph 2:8) which hopes for what will come like the church did in the prior dispensation, before His arrival:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NKJ)

Hence its necessary to judge these by works...its the only option left.

 

[DHK]

Everything you say about this rests upon "My brethren" being the Jews, if they are not, then everything you say is wrong.

So I'll focus on that error.

1)Christ is speaking to Jews, not Gentiles which fact renders your interpretation absurd:

The Jews are not divided into sheep and goats. The Jews are "my brethren". "So then all Israel shall be saved." (Romans 11:22) They as a nation turned to Christ. There are no goats among them. They all turned to Christ when Christ, at His second Coming came for them.

Christ would not tell JEWS they will be judged by how they treat themselves:

40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these JEWS, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:40 NKJ)

45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these (JEWS), you did not do it to Me.' (Mat 25:45 NKJ)

Yes, he did. "These saved Jews" are his brethren. He himself was a Jew. He told the Samaritan woman: "Salvation is of the Jews."

2)Verse 46, coming as it does no the heels of verse 45 proves this is about eternal salvation, not a temporary judgment:

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NKJ)

Never does scripture say eternal life is dependent upon how we treat the Jews.

Never in the Bible does it speak of the Judgment of Nations. This is the only place. It is prophetic.

Its not "treat the Jews well and you will be saved"; or
"Treat the Jews well and you will enter the millennial kingdom",

Neither gospel is found in the New Testament, proving its not there.

Note exactly "treat the Jews and enter."
James 2:15-16 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
--The works are proof or evidence that they had put their trust in Christ. They aren't saved by works. Their treatment of the Jews was evidence of salvation.

When a text makes plain sense we are not to seek another sense.

The plain sense of Matthew 25:31ff is that Christ will judge the billions left alive after the Antichrist and plagues, who see Him come in power with His angels and set up His Kingdom, differently than those who did believed in Him before He came, by having faith in God, in the unseen....who were already raptured before Christ descended upon the earth...who are reign with Christ in the Kingdom He is setting up.

When the Church was saved by grace through faith and not works, it was a different dispensation; Christ is now seen, therefore a different dispensation has begun:

You cannot in faith hope for what has already arrived:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 NKJ)

Those left alive after the antichrist and plagues etc. could not have faith in Christ the same way believers could before Christ came.

Once He arrives, He is seen and believing in the unseen is impossible because having the substance of faith---hope in the unseen, is impossible.

Your logic is absurd.
Once He arrives He is SEEN.

Believing in the UNSEEN is impossible.

But they are not believing in the unseen, they are believing in the Christ whom they see. Christ has come, as you just said. They see him and believe.

Therefore they cannot be saved THROUGH FAITH (Eph 2:8) like the church was in the prior dispensation:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NKJ)

Hence its necessary to judge these by works...its the only option left.

They see him and believe.
For by grace are ye saved through faith. That is exactly what happens when Christ comes again. Some believe and some don't. The entire nation of Israel believes, don't they?

 

[Andre]

What a complete confused mess! First, Romans 2:6-8 is in a context of the hypocritical lost people not saved people.

I doubt it. Look at all the explicit reference to people getting eternal life in verse 7, as re-inforced in following verses. Paul is clearly describing a good works judgement at which some will get eternal life and all that goes with it.

But [d]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart (I)you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 (who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are (P)selfishly ambitious and (Q)do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be (R)tribulation and distress [e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew (S)first and also of the Greek, 10 but (T)glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew (U)first and also to the Greek. 11 For (V)there is no partiality with God

Yes, the passage begins with a focus on a hypocritical lost person. But this hardly means that Paul is "forced" to focus exclusively on such a person as he advances his argument.

And he clearly expands his focus to include all humanity in the verses above. Paul is simply telling this hypocritical lost person that he will be on the "bad side" of a global judgement at which, yes, some people will be given eternal life.

 

[The Biblicist]

I doubt it. Look at all the explicit reference to people getting eternal life in verse 7, as re-inforced in following verses. Paul is clearly describing a good works judgement at which some will get eternal life and all that goes with it.

But [d]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart (I)you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 (who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are (P)selfishly ambitious and (Q)do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be (R)tribulation and distress [e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew (S)first and also of the Greek, 10 but (T)glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew (U)first and also to the Greek. 11 For (V)there is no partiality with God

Yes, the passage begins with a focus on a hypocritical lost person. But this hardly means that Paul is "forced" to focus exclusively on such a person as he advances his argument.

And he clearly expands his focus to include all humanity in the verses above. Paul is simply telling this hypocritical lost person that he will be on the "bad side" of a global judgement at which, yes, some people will be given eternal life.

You are confused and you are reading into the text what it does not say. He is addressing hypocrits who think they will escape judgement on the basis of their perceved self-righteousness both before (Rom. 2:1-5) and after (Rom. 2:17-25) and in response to that perception he is defining the RIGHTEOUS STANDARDS which will characterize the God's Judgement based strictly on personal merits before the Law of God.

This judgment does not concern anyone whose salvation rests upon the merits of Christ but only those who are seeking justification by their own works according to the standard of God's Law.

If under this RIGHTEOUS judgement their PERSONAL MERITS can pass the Law's standard then they will receive the just recompense of reward but if under thsi RIGHTEOUS judgment their PERSONAL MERITS cannot pass the Law's standard they will also receive the just recompense of their reward.

Paul does not conclude that there will be any who actually do pass or fail but simply sets forth the criteria for those who are attempting to be approved UNDER LAW according to their own PERSONAL MERITS.

Concerning beleivers Jesus says they shall not come into condemnation (Jm. 5:24) but have already passed from death to life. Paul says that beleivers are not "under law" but "under grace" (Rom. 6:14) but Romans 2:6-16 are strictly for those under law attempting to gain eternal life by their own merits.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

The Jews are not divided into sheep and goats. The Jews are "my brethren"....

Skipping over my argument to repeat your claims isn't proving anything to me or anyone else.

Christ is speaking to an audience of Jews, for Him to say to Jews they will be judged by how they treat Jews is absurd.

Its impossible Christ tell an audience of Jews they must treat "real Jews" good,or be dammed.

Its absurd to think they would take that insult without any reaction...They would have tried to stone Him if Christ said that.

Christ said all the nations, not just those apart from Israel....they all are judged by how they treat Christ's brethren, by their works.

That the church is not being judged is clear, they are not judged according to their works. Therefore they must be Christ's brethren, its elementary deduction.

Those who believe in Christ, do the will of the Father, are "his brethren", its not racial:

50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." (Mat 12:50 NKJ)

Of course this includes all believers, starting with the disciples:

10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me." (Mat 28:10 NKJ)

Compare the parallel those giving Jesus’ disciples help are rewarded, even if its only a cup of water:

42 "And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Mat 10:42-1 NKJ)

 

[DHK]

Skipping over my argument to repeat your claims isn't proving anything to me or anyone else.

You have no argument. No one in the Bible gets saved by works. No one!
Get the context.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
--Christ comes immediately after the Tribulation in order to set up His Kingdom. The enemies of Israel have just been conquered and Israel has just turned to Christ, at which time some others have also turned to Christ. Israel is "my brethren."
"So then all Israel shall be saved."

Christ is speaking to an audience of Jews, for Him to say to Jews they will be judged by how they treat Jews is absurd.

There are three groups of people: the sheep, the goats, and "my brethren." "My brethren" are the Jews. Obviously then, the sheep and the goats, to whom he is speaking to are not the Jews.

Its impossible Christ tell an audience of Jews they must treat "real Jews" good,or be dammed.

The audience is not the Jews; the audience is the sheep and the goats.

Its absurd to think they would take that insult without any reaction...They would have tried to stone Him if Christ said that.

Christ came as a mighty conqueror with all the armies of heaven and the mighty angels. No one could lift a hand against him. He just defeated all who went up against Israel. Now he is reigning as King of kings over the world. Who can stone him now??????????

Christ said all the nations, not just those apart from Israel....they all are judged by how they treat Christ's brethren, by their works.

The word nations can be translated Gentiles. It is not speaking of Jews.
"My brethren" is the Jews. It is not a case of how the Jews treat the Jews. That does not even make sense. All the Jews, as an entire nation have just turned to Christ. Now he is dealing with the rest of the Gentiles.
The Gentile nations will be gathered before him.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
--There are no Jews here.

That the church is not being judged is clear, they are not judged according to their works. Therefore they must be Christ's brethren, its elementary deduction.

It is true that the church has already been raptured. But salvation doesn't change; it never changes. Salvation is always by faith in Christ, and never by works.

Those who believe in Christ, do the will of the Father, are "his brethren", its not racial:

50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." (Mat 12:50 NKJ)

His will is to believe on him that sent him. That is what he said.

The goats did not believe. Their actions betrayed them.
The sheep did believe. Their actions gave evidence that they did.
They believed when they saw Christ come in His glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

The audience is not the Jews; the audience is the sheep and the goats.

The audience are those listening to Jesus when He spoke, and they were Jews.

18 So the Jews answered (Joh 2:18 NKJ)

Had Christ said to them they weren't Jews, we would read about their negative reaction, just like other occasions:

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. (Joh 10:31 NKJ)

28 So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff. (Luk 4:28-29 NKJ)

THAT is context, your interpretation makes NO SENSE in context, its absurd Jesus would tell Jews they weren't Jews, that would be a lie.

I proved "my brethren" is the church by elementary deduction the church being saved by grace and not works, can't be the sheep therefore they must be "my brethren," by direct scripture identification of "My brethren" (Rom 8:29; Mat 28:10) by citing a parallel to charity to His disciples that will merit a reward on judgment day (Mat 10:42), and by reference Christ's direct statement those who do His will are His brethren (Mat 12:50).

That's four lines of proof, scripture interprets scripture. Unless you are willing to discard that hermeneutical principle and sola scriptura with it, must agree with my interpretation or you are inconsistent with your profession of sola scriptura.

You give nothing to support your speculation "My brethren = the Jews" that surely would have gotten Christ stoned if He preached that to a crowd of Jews.


You lost the argument. That you still don't want to agree, is certain. But I won, you lost. That's where this stands right now.

 

[DHK]

The audience are those listening to Jesus when He spoke, and they were Jews.

18 So the Jews answered (Joh 2:18 NKJ)

Had Christ said to them they weren't Jews, we would read about their negative reaction, just like other occasions:

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. (Joh 10:31 NKJ)

28 So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff. (Luk 4:28-29 NKJ)

THAT is context, your interpretation makes NO SENSE in context, its absurd Jesus would tell Jews they weren't Jews, that would be a lie.

I proved "my brethren" is the church by direct scripture identification (Rom 8:29; Mat 28:10) and citing a parallel to charity to His disciples that will merit a reward on judgment day (Mat 10:42), and reference Christ's direct statement those who do His will are His brethren (Mat 12:50).

IN contrast you have nothing to support your speculation "My brethren = the Jews" that surely would have gotten Christ stoned if He preached that to a crowd of Jews.

You lost the argument. That you still don't want to agree, is certain. But I won, you lost. That's where this stands right now.

Don't be ridiculous. The context of this judgment is right here in Matthew 25:31-46, and nowhere else. It is not in John 2, John 10 and Luke 4, and in any of the other Scriptures you mentioned. It is right here in Matthew 25:31-46. This is the only passage that speaks about the Judgment of the Nations. You must use this passage for context not John 2 and the others you mentioned.

 

[steaver]

Don't be ridiculous. The context of this judgment is right here in Matthew 25:31-46, and nowhere else. It is not in John 2, John 10 and Luke 4, and in any of the other Scriptures you mentioned. It is right here in Matthew 25:31-46. This is the only passage that speaks about the Judgment of the Nations. You must use this passage for context not John 2 and the others you mentioned.

Amen! Why would anyone believe Matthew 25:31-46 is added to anywhere else in the scriptures? 2Tim2:15 needs to be envoked here.

 

[steaver]

But I won, you lost. That's where this stands right now.

Only in your own mind LOC. I doubt after all you have posted here on this topic that there is anyone here on this BB that agrees with your interpretations. So how is that winning?? I even thought that you might be a JW until I read your profile.