Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

[Alfred Persson.]

Don't be ridiculous. The context of this judgment is right here in Matthew 25:31-46, and nowhere else. It is not in John 2, John 10 and Luke 4, and in any of the other Scriptures you mentioned. It is right here in Matthew 25:31-46. This is the only passage that speaks about the Judgment of the Nations. You must use this passage for context not John 2 and the others you mentioned.

Ok, the church is already raptured when this judgment begins, therefore they can't be the sheep.

This is a judgment according to works, therefore the church can't be the sheep.

So "my brethren" must be the church, they are the only ones not judged according to their works.

Its elementary logic.

And two principles of sound hermeneutic are "scripture interprets scripture" and "when it makes plain sense, seek no other sense", which means I'm not the one being ridiculous.

I am a sola scripturaist, Bible thumper. You lost because you aren't consistent with sola scriptura, in the face of overwhelming evidence your interpretation is incorrect, you cling to it.

 

[DHK]

Ok, the church is already raptured when this judgment begins, therefore they can't be the sheep.

This is a judgment according to works, therefore the church can't be the sheep.

So "my brethren" must be the church, they are the only ones not judged according to their works.

The church was raptured; went to heaven; there faced the judgment Seat of Christ; and later returned with Christ (Rev.19), to rule and reign with Christ. They are there in their glorified bodies. They have nothing to be judged for.

Its elementary logic.

And two principles of sound hermeneutic are "scripture interprets scripture" and "when it makes plain sense, seek no other sense", which means I'm not the one being ridiculous.

It is a ridiculous logic that no one can follow.

I am a sola scripturaist, Bible thumper. You lost because you aren't consistent with sola scriptura, in the face of overwhelming evidence your interpretation is incorrect, you cling to it.

You haven't given any decent exposition of the passage to show that you are correct.

We can all put Scripture together. I believe I have given you this example to you before. But it is apt because this is what you do. You put Scripture together like the lady trying to find God's will opening her Bible at random and allowing her finger to fall at whatever verse her Bible opens up to. This is what happened:

On the first attempt: "Judas went out and hung himself."
Second attempt: "Go and do thou likewise."
Third attempt: "What thou doest do quickly."

Is this also the will of God for you? or at least the method that you study the Bible--comparing Scripture with Scripture?

 

[Alfred Persson.]

The church was raptured; went to heaven; there faced the judgment Seat of Christ; and later returned with Christ (Rev.19), to rule and reign with Christ. They are there in their glorified bodies. They have nothing to be judged for.

Now you got it, therefore they aren't the sheep being judged according to their works.

Nor are they the goats.

Only those who believe in Christ now, during this dispensation, can be saved by grace through faith.

Once Christ arrives, you can't hope He will arrive...once He is seen, you cannot have faith he exists, then he is seen.

As "believing" in Christ in the same way the faithful do NOW is impossible once Christ arrives, the dispensation changes from a judgment not according to works, to a judgment according to works.

 

[DHK]

Only those who believe in Christ now, during this dispensation, can be saved by grace through faith.

Such double-talk!
You teach those that are already saved (believe in Christ now), can be saved by grace through faith--can be saved again???????????

What kind of garbage is this. In your theology does a person have to be saved twice?

 

[DHK]

Now you got it, therefore they aren't the sheep being judged according to their works.

The church is ruling and reigning with Christ. You are still confused. They are not referred to as the sheep.

Nor are they the goats.

Believers are never referred to as goats.

Only those who believe in Christ now, during this dispensation, can be saved by grace through faith.

This statement doesn't even make sense.

Once Christ arrives, you can't hope He will arrive...once He is seen, you cannot have faith he exists, then he is seen.

There is much that is still unseen. His promises are unseen. Do you discount the salvation of all the apostles. They saw Christ. They still needed faith. They even prayed: "Lord increase our faith," and yet they could see him.

As "believing" in Christ in the same way the faithful do NOW is impossible once Christ arrives, the dispensation changes from a judgment not according to works, to a judgment according to works.

The way of salvation never changes. It is always by grace through faith. It is never through works. A works-based salvation is heresy. Why not become a Hindu if you are going to believe that. They believe that works will save. Christianity does not.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

Such double-talk!
You teach those that are already saved (believe in Christ now), can be saved by grace through faith--can be saved again???????????

What kind of garbage is this. In your theology does a person have to be saved twice?

I never said that, you are making that up...which is odd and peculiar indeed.

Those saved in this life pass over from death into life and aren't judged in Rev 20:11-15.

Nor in Mat 25.

Nor in John 5:28-29

That's why they can't be the sheep, who are being judged according to their works.

I don't see why you can't get this, you say the church was already judged (about rewards only) before Christ returned , that they reign with Christ in His millennial kingdom and aren't judged whether they will have eternal life.

I agree.

But you still want the church judged as a sheep in Mat 25?

I don't agree, that contradicts they won't be judged whether they are saved or not.

Its your interpretation that is inconsistent, not mine.


Mine shines with brilliant logical consistency.

Yours is confused, you insist the church are the sheep, but then you have the church judged whether they are goats or not....that is impossible as they are the ones reigning with Christ doing the judging.

 

[DHK]

vc

But you still want the church judged as a sheep in Mat 25?

I never said that; you did. I said explicitly that the church had already been raptured and therefore cannot be the sheep. Understand!!

I don't agree, that contradicts they won't be judged whether they are saved or not.

Then stop saying it.

Yours is confused, you insist the church are the sheep,

Either quote me or take back what you said.

but then you have the church judged whether they are goats or not....that is impossible as they are the ones reigning with Christ doing the judging.

Either quote me or take back what you said.
If you don't quote what I said, you don't know what I said, and that is obvious here.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

I never said that; you did. I said explicitly that the church had already been raptured and therefore cannot be the sheep. Understand!!

Then stop saying it.

Either quote me or take back what you said.

Either quote me or take back what you said.
If you don't quote what I said, you don't know what I said, and that is obvious here.

Oops, I fell into that trap of too many tangents and now am confused what it is we are arguing about.

Let's go back to one of your earlier statements which is clear enough, and I'll ask again how you square this with Matthew 25:34 and 46

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
--It happens after the second coming of Christ.
Who are these people?

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
--They are all the nations that have come through The Tribulation. They are about to enter the Millennial Kingdom. What is the requirement for them to enter into the Kingdom, as he divides the sheep from the goats?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
--Who are "my brethren?"
The "brethren" are the Jews, the nation of Israel. Christ, in his Second Coming came for the nation of Israel. All those that stood against Israel will be condemned. This is the criteria that he has set for those coming through the Tribulation to enter the Kingdom. They are not saved. They are only permitted to enter the Kingdom on that basis.



They are not saved. They are only permitted to enter the Kingdom on that basis.-DHK


THAT contradicts Christ:

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Mat 25:34 NKJ)

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NKJ)

Your interpretation is impossible, these are being given eternal life, not a temporary unsaved existence in the Millennial kingdom.

My interpretation doesn't contradict Christ...the Brethren is the church, all of whom are symbolically martyrs Rev 20:4-6 having died and risen with Christ in baptism.

They have passed from judgment into life and are never judged regarding their salvation.

Therefore the sheep who get eternal life for doing good, are not the church. They are saved by works.

There is a dispensation of salvation by grace through faith and not works, BEFORE Christ arrives...after that its impossible to have faith in Jesus, then He is seen. So then there is a dispensation of salvation by works...even the Temple of God in Ezekiel during the Millennial Kingdom symbolizes that, scripture expressly teaches it and the book of Revelation explicitly says it twice Rev 20:12-13.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

Get on board for the big win.

 

[th1bill]

That's why they can't be the sheep, who are being judged according to their works.

I don't see why you can't get this, you say the church was already judged (about rewards only) before Christ returned , that they reign with Christ in His millennial kingdom and aren't judged whether they will have eternal life.

LOC,
You have won nothing but, perhaps, an eternal vacation in Hell. This has never been and will never be a Works Contest and the Judgment of ther Lost Man´s works are for the purpose of showing Him or her why they are going into the Abyss. Nobody in Hell goes anywhere else.

By Randy Alcorn

What awaits the believer after death? We all know the answer—heaven. Heaven is a real place in which we will worship God (Revelation 5:11-13), serve God (Revelation 7:15) and reign with God (Revelation 22:5). It is a place of great pleasure, characterized by magnificent beauty, including streets of gold and buildings of pearls and emeralds and precious stones (Rev. 21:19-21). We will live, celebrate, eat and drink in heaven (Revelation 19:9; Luke 22:29, 30).

Heaven will be a wonderful place, and we will enter it only on the basis of faith in Christ’s work for us, not by any works which we have done. What we seldom consider is that Scripture plainly tells us there is a judgment of believers, not simply of our faith but of our works, that will determine for all eternity certain aspects of our place or position in heaven.

Scripture repeatedly states all men, not just unbelievers, will be judged for their works (Proverbs 24:12; Ecclesiastes 12:14). The unbeliever’s judgment of works comes at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:12). The believer will not be condemned at the Great White Throne, but nonetheless he still faces a judgment of works himself, at what is called the “Judgment Seat of Christ.”

www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/18/believers-judgment-works/

 

[Alfred Persson.]

LOC,
You have won nothing but, perhaps, an eternal vacation in Hell.

It is impossible anyone be kept in hell forever, on judgment Day it will be emptied of all in it, and cast into the fire.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(Rev 20:13-14 KJV)

Much better we believe the scriptures and not what arose later.


Get on board for the Big Win


No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. (Isa 54:17 NKJ)

 

[DHK]

Oops, I fell into that trap of too many tangents and now am confused what it is we are arguing about.

Yep, you were confused. I am glad to see you were willing to admit your mistake though.

They are not saved. They are only permitted to enter the Kingdom on that basis.-DHK

Salvation is by grace through faith. It always was, is, and will be. It is never by works.

THAT contradicts Christ:

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Mat 25:34 NKJ)

I believe that these (sheep) became sheep at the second coming, at the same time the Jews turned to Christ. Christ came in all his splendor with the holy angels. There must have been some that were saved at that time. They were saved by grace through faith--believing on Christ. That is the only way a person can inherit eternal life.

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NKJ)

One of the characteristics of the unsaved is their anti-semitism. Take a look at Islam for example. One of their greatest desires is wipe Israel off the face of the map. One cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. These, along with other unbelievers, will go away into everlasting punishment.
The righteous, who believed in Christ, will inherit eternal life, because they believed.

Your interpretation is impossible, these are being given eternal life, not a temporary unsaved existence in the Millennial kingdom.

Yes it is eternal life. They were saved at the coming of Christ.

My interpretation doesn't contradict Christ...the Brethren is the church, all of whom are symbolically martyrs Rev 20:4-6 having died and risen with Christ in baptism.

The brethren have been in heaven for a thousand years. They have resurrected bodies. They came with Christ (Rev.19) to rule and reign with him. Your interpretation doesn't make sense. "The brethren" are the Jews, those who suffered through the tribulation, those who Christ came to rescue.

They have passed from judgment into life and are never judged regarding their salvation.

Therefore the sheep who get eternal life for doing good, are not the church. They are saved by works.

Nobody is saved by works. Not a single individual. This is not only unbiblical, but anti-biblical.

There is a dispensation of salvation by grace through faith and not works, BEFORE Christ arrives...after that its impossible to have faith in Jesus, then He is seen.

You are being ultra-dispensational. Salvation never changes. If we take your logic--that faith must always be in the unseen Christ, then it would have been impossible for the Apostles, who saw Christ, to be saved. Were all the Apostles unsaved? No.
And those that see Christ at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom will have that same chance to put their faith in him. Also, those born during the Tribulation must have that same chance to put their faith in Christ. It won't be automatic. They must, of their own will put their faith, their trust, in Christ who will be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem.
--My wife is sitting in the same room as I. I have faith in her. Faith is confidence in the word of another. I have faith that soon she will get up and make supper as she said she would. My faith is in her word. Spiritually, my faith is in God's Word. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So then there is a dispensation of salvation by works...even the Temple of God in Ezekiel during the Millennial Kingdom symbolizes that, scripture expressly teaches it and the book of Revelation explicitly says it twice Rev 20:12-13.

There is no such thing as a dispensation of works. It is not taught anywhere. Rev.20:11-15 is a Judgment. It is the final sentence of the doom of the unsaved from all ages. No one is saved. All are cast into the Lake of Fire, and there shall be tormented day and night, for ever and ever. If ever there should be motivation for one to go and witness to others, it should be right there.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

Two resurrections; two judgments.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

[/I][/B]
I believe that these (sheep) became sheep at the second coming, at the same time the Jews turned to Christ. Christ came in all his splendor with the holy angels. There must have been some that were saved at that time. They were saved by grace through faith--believing on Christ. That is the only way a person can inherit eternal life.

Its impossible to believe Christ will come, after He arrives; Its impossible to have faith God is, and that Jesus is the Christ, once God is seen through the Kingdom Christ sets up:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 NKJ)

Once Christ arrives, its impossible to hope He will; Once Christ arrives, its impossible to "be saved through faith" because its not faith to acknowledge what one sees with their own eyes.

As salvation by grace and not works is THROUGH FAITH, once Christ arrives it too late for anyone to become sheep by Grace...that dispensation as passed:

Now is the acceptable time to believe, to be saved by grace and not works:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NKJ)

Once Christ arrives, "faith" is impossible. Judgment according to works is all that is left as an option to God....that, or slay billions when He comes.

 

[The Biblicist]

Its impossible to have faith God is, and that Jesus is the Christ, once God is seen through the Kingdom Christ sets up:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 NKJ)

Once Christ arrives, its impossible to hope He will; Once Christ arrives, its impossible to "be saved through faith" because its not faith to acknowledge what one sees with their own eyes.

You are confused! Sure, there is no need to believe something SHALL come if it has already come. That is unbelief being expressed or refusal to believe what has already been fulfilled.

However, believing IN someone is quite different. You are suggesting that when Christ comes all believers will turn into unbelievers because no one can believe IN CHRIST after he is come. When he come will you stop believing IN him???? Or the very fact that He has come will not that even strengthen your faith IN him even more?

Tell me, did not Jesus already come and live on earth. Was it impossible for those living on earth with him, seeing him every day to believe in him???? Your rationale is suggesting that being able to see Jesus denies one can believe in him.

Therefore, your analogy and rationale are wrong!

 

[th1bill]

It is impossible anyone be kept in hell forever, on judgment Day it will be emptied of all in it, and cast into the fire.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(Rev 20:13-14 KJV)

Much better we believe the scriptures and not what arose later.


Get on board for the Big Win

I have not been faithful to read all you have posted but this the frirst truth I have witnessed you to post. Now if you will just downloiad or purchse aq copy of the Nave´s Topical Study Guide or hook up with a Bible grounded study group so that you can become grounded. All of these poeople will be judged by God for their evil works to determine their level ofr sternal punishment

All salvation is by grace because of the case stated in Romans 3.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

You are confused! Sure, there is no need to believe something SHALL come if it has already come. That is unbelief being expressed or refusal to believe what has already been fulfilled.

However, believing IN someone is quite different. You are suggesting that when Christ comes all believers will turn into unbelievers because no one can believe IN CHRIST after he is come. When he come will you stop believing IN him???? Or the very fact that He has come will not that even strengthen your faith IN him even more?

Tell me, did not Jesus already come and live on earth. Was it impossible for those living on earth with him, seeing him every day to believe in him???? Your rationale is suggesting that being able to see Jesus denies one can believe in him.

Therefore, your analogy and rationale are wrong!

Your reply is unsound because it confused "belief in the unseen" as being the same as "belief in the seen", which are two different kinds of belief, one requires faith, the other does not.

Believing Christ was a man didn't save any of those who saw Him and heard His preaching, only believing in what they could not see with their eyes, that He is the Christ, the Son of God….saved.

The demons believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God because they saw its true with their own eyes THEREFORE that kind of belief that doesn't require faith in the unseen is NOT what I'm talking about. That equivocation rendered your reply irrelevant.


Its belief in the unseen Name of Jesus that He is the Christ, the Son of God, through faith which is not of our eyes, through which salvation comes:

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31-1 NKJ)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8 KJV)

When Christ arrives with His angels in glory, and sits down on His throne, the fact He is the Christ, the Son of God is no longer a matter of "saving faith in the unseen", then everyone knows it as fact.

Just as believing in the fact of Christ's humanity didn't save those who saw Him, neither will believing what everyone sees with their eyes---that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, save them at His coming. That's why Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of works, not whether they agree its Jesus the Christ and Son of God who sits on the Throne judging them. That everyone knows, it doesn't require faith to know it, they all see it with their eyes:


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1 NKJ)

Therefore the dispensation of "belief requiring faith in the unseen" is now, it cannot exist after Christ arrives destroying the need for faith because then this truth is seen.

Hence I am not the one who is confused. The reasons for my position are sound.

During the millennial Kingdom people aren't saved by faith in Christ's Deity, they are judged according to their works, whether they receive Christ or not. The specified works in Matthew 25:33-46 illustrate precisely that, whether one has received Christ, ingested His teachings and lived according to His light, or not---even if they weren't aware that is what they were doing...even if they were a law unto themselves, their conscience either accusing or excusing them.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Mat 25:31-40 KJV)


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16 KJV)

 

[DHK]

Your reply is unsound because it confused "belief in the unseen" as being the same as "belief in the seen", which are two different kinds of belief, one requires faith, the other does not.

Belief is faith. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Have faith on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). They both mean the same thing. Believe--have faith.

There is only one kind of faith. It is trust, belief, confidence.
Everyone has faith. What changes is the object of one's faith.
Jesus said: Unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Thus little children have faith. What is the object of their faith? The object of their faith is their parents. They know intuitively that their parents will take care of them: provide, protect, and nourish them. Others will not. They put their faith in their parents. A child of God puts his faith in His Heavenly Father in like manner.

We exercise faith every day. I have faith that when I put my key in my ignition and turn it that my car will start. That is faith. It is confidence built up over time that I have had with my car.
In like manner the more time you spend with Christ the more confidence you will have in the promises of Christ.
I have faith in my wife. If she says that she will make supper, I have faith that she will accomplish what she promises to do.
How much more can we put our faith in our Saviour who promises to keep our salvation to the very end.

What is the object of your faith? I trust, spiritually speaking, that it is Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

Belief is faith. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Have faith on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). They both mean the same thing. Believe--have faith.

There is only one kind of faith. It is trust, belief, confidence.
Everyone has faith. What changes is the object of one's faith.
Jesus said: Unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Thus little children have faith. What is the object of their faith? The object of their faith is their parents. They know intuitively that their parents will take care of them: provide, protect, and nourish them. Others will not. They put their faith in their parents. A child of God puts his faith in His Heavenly Father in like manner.

We exercise faith every day. I have faith that when I put my key in my ignition and turn it that my car will start. That is faith. It is confidence built up over time that I have had with my car.
In like manner the more time you spend with Christ the more confidence you will have in the promises of Christ.
I have faith in my wife. If she says that she will make supper, I have faith that she will accomplish what she promises to do.
How much more can we put our faith in our Saviour who promises to keep our salvation to the very end.

What is the object of your faith? I trust, spiritually speaking, that it is Christ.

Its not believe Jesus is a man and you will be saved...that we can see.

Its believe He is the Christ, the Son of God, that saves...which cannot be seen.

You ignored that distinction in my argument, rendering your reply irrelevant.

 

[DHK]

Its not believe Jesus is a man and you will be saved...that we can see.

Its believe He is the Christ, the Son of God, that saves...which cannot be seen.

You ignored that distinction in my argument, rendering your reply irrelevant.

Your distinction is moot.
Your understanding of "believe" is faulty.

 

[steaver]

Its not believe Jesus is a man and you will be saved...that we can see.

Its believe He is the Christ, the Son of God, that saves...which cannot be seen.

You ignored that distinction in my argument, rendering your reply irrelevant.

I think some Christians make the mistake of thinking that faith is something we have in an unknown. The Christian's faith has an object that we know, and that object is Jesus Christ. We cannot see Jesus, yet we know Him through the Holy Spirit whom indwells us. This is why we cry ABBA Father. Our hope is in what we know, and not a "hope so" or I hope it is true sort of faith. As Paul said, I know whom I have believed in. Amen!

 

[DHK]

I think some Christians make the mistake of thinking that faith is something we have in an unknown. The Christian's faith has an object that we know, and that object is Jesus Christ. We cannot see Jesus, yet we know Him through the Holy Spirit whom indwells us. This is why we cry ABBA Father. Our hope is in what we know, and not a "hope so" or I hope it is true sort of faith. As Paul said, I know whom I have believed in. Amen!

All of this is true. Moriah doesn't believe a child born in the Millennial can be saved because he can't have faith. Faith is in the unseen, and there Jesus will be seen. Even though the object of his faith may be Christ, it won't work because Christ can be seen. This is his problem.