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Joel Osteen
- Thread starter izzaksdad
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Marcia
Active Member
D28 and Music4Him, the problem with people like Osteen is that they do say some things that are true. But the context it is in makes it dangerous, because you hear the true things and think it's alright.
No, faith is not a force nor is fear a force. If I am afraid that I will lose my best friend, that is not going to make her die. This is what Osteen teaches and what I heard him say in a sermon.
If someone is afraid their wife will die, that does not make her die. I don't care how many good teachings are there, God does not call on us to be positive and avoid negative thinking because it will affect material reality. Yes, we should trust God and know he is bigger than our problems, but I do not control material reality with my thinking.
Also, the Bible is not about positive and negative, but is about sin and redemption from sin and God's righteousness. According to what Osteen teaches, we should think a lot of the Psalms are "negative" thinking. We are not supposed to "confess" (i.e., speak) anything negative!
Osteen also teaches that God wants to bless us with more money, health, etc. but this is not what the BIble teaches. We are told to be ready to be persecuted, to die for the faith. Many Chritians are sick right now and are poor right now, and Osteen would say it's because of negative thinking and that they confessed negative things.
Do you not see the bondage of this???? If your wife gets cancer, the WF people will tell you it's because she was negative and/or you confessed something negative.
Faith is not a force. That statement alone is enough to turn me off, no matter what else he says because it shows he is not understanding biblical faith.
No, faith is not a force nor is fear a force. If I am afraid that I will lose my best friend, that is not going to make her die. This is what Osteen teaches and what I heard him say in a sermon.
If someone is afraid their wife will die, that does not make her die. I don't care how many good teachings are there, God does not call on us to be positive and avoid negative thinking because it will affect material reality. Yes, we should trust God and know he is bigger than our problems, but I do not control material reality with my thinking.
Also, the Bible is not about positive and negative, but is about sin and redemption from sin and God's righteousness. According to what Osteen teaches, we should think a lot of the Psalms are "negative" thinking. We are not supposed to "confess" (i.e., speak) anything negative!
Osteen also teaches that God wants to bless us with more money, health, etc. but this is not what the BIble teaches. We are told to be ready to be persecuted, to die for the faith. Many Chritians are sick right now and are poor right now, and Osteen would say it's because of negative thinking and that they confessed negative things.
Do you not see the bondage of this???? If your wife gets cancer, the WF people will tell you it's because she was negative and/or you confessed something negative.
Faith is not a force. That statement alone is enough to turn me off, no matter what else he says because it shows he is not understanding biblical faith.
Marcia
Active Member
This is classic Word Faith doctrine. "Your words have creative power" -- there it is! No, sorry, my words do NOT have creative power, Joel.
There is no "divine connection" (boy that takes me back!) between me "declaring God's favor" and seeing God's favor manifest in my life. I don't have to speak anything out in order to get it. That is not biblical. And I'm supposed to ask according to God's will. Where is the humility and where is God's will in Osteen's teachings?
It's all about saying these things out loud because by the secret spiritual laws these people think they know, by speaking it out loud, that "looses" God's ability to give it to you. That's what all the "loosing" God's hands is about.
Well, this is like teachings used in some New Age sects, in New Thought, and in sorcery. In those teachings, one believes that if you can visualize it and affirm it, you can bring about what exists on the abstract plane into the material plane.
Osteen and the WF teachers say the same thing, except they are making God the abstract plane. Just speak it, and then God can bring it about.
Job 3:23-26
Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?
24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.
25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
What was Job talking about then? He says he feared it then it came upon him.
Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?
24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.
25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
What was Job talking about then? He says he feared it then it came upon him.
Marcia,
I am very familiar with the "extreme", highly out of balance WOF teaching that is out there. I've heard it. And I believe when it gets way "out there" like that it is actually dangerous....meaning it can cause very negative consequences. Its not of God.
But its easy sometimes I believe for me, you, or anyone else to be too quick to judge just because we see certain "catch phrases", or certain ways of saying things...and then assume that *this* teaching is therefore just exactly like *that* teaching, or that *this* teacher is just like *that* teacher.
And people can do that even though they have extremely good intentions and their heart is in the right place. And I believe that is true of you in both cases.
When I 1st read "faith filled words" in that message, I immedietly thought "Oh, brother...here we go. Hes gonna say 'Do you want a new luxery boat? Speak it into being'!" But he didnt. He just encouraged people to be confident that God will take care of them, and meet there needs.
I'm acually going to print that message out for my wife, because she seems to be going through some things that have her becoming discouraged. I believe God will bless her through it.
By the way, I "copied and pasted" it fine. I dont know why it wouldnt work for you. Maybe something about your particular operating system or something. I'm just guessing since I'm the worst computer "know nothing" in the world!
God Bless,
Mike
I am very familiar with the "extreme", highly out of balance WOF teaching that is out there. I've heard it. And I believe when it gets way "out there" like that it is actually dangerous....meaning it can cause very negative consequences. Its not of God.
But its easy sometimes I believe for me, you, or anyone else to be too quick to judge just because we see certain "catch phrases", or certain ways of saying things...and then assume that *this* teaching is therefore just exactly like *that* teaching, or that *this* teacher is just like *that* teacher.
And people can do that even though they have extremely good intentions and their heart is in the right place. And I believe that is true of you in both cases.
When I 1st read "faith filled words" in that message, I immedietly thought "Oh, brother...here we go. Hes gonna say 'Do you want a new luxery boat? Speak it into being'!" But he didnt. He just encouraged people to be confident that God will take care of them, and meet there needs.
I'm acually going to print that message out for my wife, because she seems to be going through some things that have her becoming discouraged. I believe God will bless her through it.
By the way, I "copied and pasted" it fine. I dont know why it wouldnt work for you. Maybe something about your particular operating system or something. I'm just guessing since I'm the worst computer "know nothing" in the world!
God Bless,
Mike
Many will simply dismiss the power of our words because some fruitcakes abuse it. But, I know a man who was burned on one leg as a child and found out that he could get more sympathy by saying both legs were burned. After telling this lie for a number of years, his other leg broke down and looks just like the leg that was burned. Doctors have no explanation as to why this happened. What do you think?
D
dianetavegia
Guest
TC, I guess that was a 'name it, claim it' experience.
Excuse me, but I m not sure what you mean by that statement??
YOu have accused me in the past of personal /attack and have accused others of personal attacks. Explain your statement!!!
Is this intended to be a persoanal attack , or did you say this without thinking? </font>[/QUOTE]This is not a personal attack. It is merely an observation of fact. Your statement that I commented on is known as a logical fallacy called a straw man. </font>[/QUOTE]I M TAKING THIS AS A PERSONAL ATTACK.
QUIT ACCUSING EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH YOU OF GIVING YOU A PERSONAL ATTACK UNLESS YOU CAN PRACTICE A LITTLE DISCIPLNE YOURSELF RATHTER THAN PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME AND OTHERS!!! </font>[/QUOTE]I am sorry you think it is a personal attack but it is not. It is an observation. A straw man argument is what you were using to respond to what was being discussed. It is a logical fallacy.
I am not going to admit to a personal attack when it was not one. </font>[/QUOTE]If I called you a straw woman, would you accuse me of a personal attack?
Atestring: If I pointed out to you that you were using circular reasoning in your presentation--which of course is illogical, would you take it as a personal attack, or good advice to rethink your position and reword your position so that it is more logical in its presentation.
A "straw man" is a logical fallacy that Marcia pointed out. It was not a personal attack. Therefore take that as advice, and reword your position so that it is not illogical.
"Stawman"
Etymology:
"Straw man" is one of the best-named fallacies, because it is memorable and vividly illustrates the nature of the fallacy. Imagine a fight in which one of the combatants sets up a man of straw, attacks it, then proclaims victory. All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched.
www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html
DHK
A "straw man" is a logical fallacy that Marcia pointed out. It was not a personal attack. Therefore take that as advice, and reword your position so that it is not illogical.
"Stawman"
Etymology:
"Straw man" is one of the best-named fallacies, because it is memorable and vividly illustrates the nature of the fallacy. Imagine a fight in which one of the combatants sets up a man of straw, attacks it, then proclaims victory. All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched.
www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html
DHK
MasterWalk
New Member
I always notice the type of clothing that these TV preachers wear. Joel Osteen's wife, Victoria, looks more like a high class model instead of a preacher's wife. Joyce Meyer is always so elegantly dressed too. Makes me wonder where these ladies get the money to pay for all of those nice dresses.
This is not to mean that these two ladies are not fine Christian women.
This is not to mean that these two ladies are not fine Christian women.
So how exactly is a "preacher's wife" supposed to be dressed? I've look on Osteen's webite and found a few photos on his wife. She is dressed appopriately IMHO.Originally posted by MasterWalk:
I always notice the type of clothing that these TV preachers wear. Joel Osteen's wife, Victoria, looks more like a high class model instead of a preacher's wife. Joyce Meyer is always so elegantly dressed too. Makes me wonder where these ladies get the money to pay for all of those nice dresses.
This is not to mean that these two ladies are not fine Christian women.
I've kept up with this thread and not once has anyone who disagrees with Osteen's theology suggested that people pray for Joel Osteen. If you believe that Osteen is preaching false doctrine then I would suggest pray for him!! Get on your knees and pray that God would bring Truth to Osteen's message. It's so easy to just attack and nitpick someone else's beliefs. The difficult thing is to go beyond that and humble yourself and pray for someone you don't agree with or like. It's easy to pray for loved one. That takes no effort.
I will join anyone here willing to pray for Joel Osteen. Who will join me in prayer?
And and by the way, I don't agree with Osteen's WoF type message. I have several disagreements with the WoF message...
MasterWalk
New Member
I know she is dressed very nice. She is a lovely lady and the best part is that she is a Christian.
Will you listen to yourself............ What in the world does clothing have to do with anything? I also guess if a woman is a Christain shes suppost to look like a poor ole sinner wearing a flour sack dress?
On the other hand if she came out looking like Minnie Pearl with a flour sack dress and a tag on her hat every body would be breaking their necks just to see how much she spent for it.
There isn't anything wrong with looking nice and wearing nice clothes. To judge someone who is in the public spotlight for what they are wearing is kinda shallow.
BTW, Victoria and Joyce probley get thier dress money from book sales or I assume the church pays them for their service. Isn't the labourer is worthy of his hire[/b]?
I also guess if a woman is a Christain shes suppost to look like a poor ole sinner wearing a flour sack dress?
On the other hand if she came out looking like Minnie Pearl with a flour sack dress and a tag on her hat every body would be breaking their necks just to see how much she spent for it.
There isn't anything wrong with looking nice and wearing nice clothes. To judge someone who is in the public spotlight for what they are wearing is kinda shallow.
BTW, Victoria and Joyce probley get thier dress money from book sales or I assume the church pays them for their service. Isn't the labourer is worthy of his hire[/b]?
MasterWalk
New Member
I'm not trying to judge anyone. It does seem that TV preachers [and their wives] are better able to afford clothes that make them look attractive. You are probably right when you say that they get their nice clothing from book sales.
I'm gonna echo DHK here! John the Baptist was---from the lips of Jesus---the "greatest man born of woman"
He wore coats of Camel's hair----but his theology was "straight as an arrow"----these are the kind of men God is looking for---rag tag clothes are meaningless to the Lord Jesus---driving the latest "'Caddy" or Lexus---is meaningless to the Lord Jesus---He wants men who square up with the word from the Word----
The above mentioned threads??? Anybody can drive "the latest"---but I wouldn't go 2 feet to hear "hogwash" theology!
Bro. David
Marcia
Active Member
Hi, Mike,
You need to look at his book. In there, he does talk about speaking what you want, and also speaking to your obstacles.
Also, people here keep ignoring that sermon I heard him give about how our thoughts and fears affect material reality. If we are afraid of something, that will make it happen.
Marcia
Active Member
Yes, so? Job said what he feared happened. This is not teaching us that what we fear will happen because we are fearing it.
I am dealing with a tough situation now concerning a truck that hit my car. I am not going to "speak to my obstacle" as Osteen tells me to do. I am going to speak to God about it. I am not going to go around and do affimations like I did in the New Age (sometimes, as it was boring to do it), saying only positive things so that the outcome will be good (as Osteen teaches). I am praying, my friends are praying, and I am trusting in the Lord.
Osteen actually teaches that we have to say what we want -- we have to speak it into existence. This is NOT biblical. It's New Thought/Word Faith.
What makes Osteen's teachings so dangerous is that he mixes them in with common sense stuff, like don't be complaining all the time.
I spent a long time looking at and reading some of Osteen's book yesterday. If someone wants to send me $14 for Osteen's book, Your Best Life Now , or send me the book, I will read it and write more on what he says.
Get that title?
God wants us to be happy, wealthy, healthy, and just having a great ol' time. Never mind the NT teachings on being ready to suffer persecution and consider it a blessing, or laying down your life for your brother. Are the Christians in China, Egypt, India, etc. who get persecuted, imprisoned, and killed living their "best life now?" No, but they are being faithful and will be rewarded. Our reward is in heaven, not here on earth.Marcia,
If someone is fearful of going out to look for a job, that is going to affect material reality. They lose their job, and are fearful of going for job interviews, so they dont. They stay inside, as they are running out of money, just hoping that "something will happen" and they will be offered a job. In time their money runs out, the rent comes due, they get thrown out on the street and are now homeless.
All because their fear affected their material reality.
If someone is so fearful of rejection that they never ask any other single folks out on dates, nor do they accept offers from others, then that will affect their physical reality. They go years or decades without the comfort of compamionship in marriage.
All because their fear affected their material reality.
I can go on and on of course.
On the other hand, if someone fills their mind with scriptural truth, they can be free of that. They realise that Almighty God is aware of even a sparrow when it falls, so He has me right in the palm of His hand. If I dont get a job, that must mean that isnt the job God wants me to have, and they confidently go for the next interview.
If someone rejects their offer for a date, they can fill their thoughts with the truth that God says that its not good for man to be alone, but he needs a helpmate in life, so they can confidently carry on, knowing that they could be just one day away from meeting that person.
You seem to be on such a witch-hunt for these *sinister* WOFers that you are looking for any little *catch phrase* and immedietly filling it with all of the "worst case scenerio" bad teachings that some excessive and very out of balance WOFers have given it.
Could I ask you something? Do you personally know some WOFers? I mean friends and aquaintences? I have good friends who are WOF people and they are essentially no different than a normal well balanced Assembly of God brother of sister. If you are a Baptist they are probably more *pentecostal* or *charismatic* in their distinctives than maybe you are, but they are basically good solid evangelicals. But they go to a WOF church, in the sense that they are sympathetic to some WOF teachings and some WOF teachers.
The out of balance ones are out there, we both know it, but not all WOFers...or WOF teachers...are that way.
God bless,
Mike
You dont believe thats true?
If someone is fearful of going out to look for a job, that is going to affect material reality. They lose their job, and are fearful of going for job interviews, so they dont. They stay inside, as they are running out of money, just hoping that "something will happen" and they will be offered a job. In time their money runs out, the rent comes due, they get thrown out on the street and are now homeless.
All because their fear affected their material reality.
If someone is so fearful of rejection that they never ask any other single folks out on dates, nor do they accept offers from others, then that will affect their physical reality. They go years or decades without the comfort of compamionship in marriage.
All because their fear affected their material reality.
I can go on and on of course.
On the other hand, if someone fills their mind with scriptural truth, they can be free of that. They realise that Almighty God is aware of even a sparrow when it falls, so He has me right in the palm of His hand. If I dont get a job, that must mean that isnt the job God wants me to have, and they confidently go for the next interview.
If someone rejects their offer for a date, they can fill their thoughts with the truth that God says that its not good for man to be alone, but he needs a helpmate in life, so they can confidently carry on, knowing that they could be just one day away from meeting that person.
You seem to be on such a witch-hunt for these *sinister* WOFers that you are looking for any little *catch phrase* and immedietly filling it with all of the "worst case scenerio" bad teachings that some excessive and very out of balance WOFers have given it.
Could I ask you something? Do you personally know some WOFers? I mean friends and aquaintences? I have good friends who are WOF people and they are essentially no different than a normal well balanced Assembly of God brother of sister. If you are a Baptist they are probably more *pentecostal* or *charismatic* in their distinctives than maybe you are, but they are basically good solid evangelicals. But they go to a WOF church, in the sense that they are sympathetic to some WOF teachings and some WOF teachers.
The out of balance ones are out there, we both know it, but not all WOFers...or WOF teachers...are that way.
God bless,
Mike