John 1:12-13 revisited.

[Dave...]

This is one of a few proof texts used to prove that man must be born again before He can believe. The problem is that this text doesn't actually say that.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sounds like a slam dunk, right?

This is still OT. That is relevant. Because nobody was indwelt in the OT. As a result, nobody was born again. Not until Pentecost. Notice that it says He gave the "right to become children of God".

The evidence of being born of God was the result of believing, albeit, the promise delayed because of the transition from the OT to the NT. The promise was made at that time, because they already believed, but the promise fulfilled was later at Pentecost. So the 'born of God' part of that passage, while looking back, looks back to a future promise that was yet unfulfilled. It was tradition that was read into the text. It just goes to show, people can be just as wrong in the Greek as in English when driven by tradition.

The NEV did a great job with the translation.

NEV--John 1:12-13 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

This passage does not teach that a person must be born again to believe. It teaches that they believed before they were born again.

I'll do John 3:3 and 1 John 5:1 next.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

this was not OT. This is John making a statement, he wrote this After Jesus died.

he said, He came into his own, but his own received him not. But as many ad DID receive him, to them he gave the power people are still receiving him today. and people are still not receiving him

 

[kyredneck]

This is one of a few proof texts used to prove that man must be born again before He can believe. The problem is that this text doesn't actually say that.

The text is in the same vein as:

Acts Chapter 13

48​	And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John Chapter 10

26​	But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27​	My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John Chapter 8

47​	He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Dave...]

this was not OT. This is John making a statement, he wrote this After Jesus died.

he said, He came into his own, but his own received him not. But as many ad DID receive him, to them he gave the power people are still receiving him today. and people are still not receiving him

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

John 1:12-13 is speaking of those who received Jesus during His earthy ministry, before His death on the cross (John 19:17-42). This is why there was still a priesthood, and the Levitical Law was still being obeyed. This is why there was still a Temple. God did not dwell in man until there was blood to cleanse the temple. The Holy Spirit brings that blood with Him when He enters NT believers, only after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. I believe that this is one of the reasons why OT believers were not indwelt. the other is that they could not be born again without the indwelling.

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

See this thread.

What does the Bible teach us about the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

What happens spiritually that makes us born again? I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism. When we are placed...

www.baptistboard.com

 

[Dave...]

The text is in the same vein as:

Acts Chapter 13

48​	And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John Chapter 10

26​	But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27​	My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John Chapter 8

47​	He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Hey KY

These are two different discussions. You see it as black and white. In other words, if they weren't born again, then it must be from the flesh. But OT believers had the Holy Spirit upon them. That didn't make them born again, but it did have an effect on them. And there are other things to consider, like the power of God's Word and God drawing people. These can be done without being born again, as is evidenced by the fact that people believed in the OT without being born again. Clearly, the "seeing the kingdom" was still lacking per John 16:11-15 below...

John 16:11-15 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

I think that the traditional Calvinist interpretation of "seeing the kingdom in John 3:3 goes a little too far. They believed and were due the Promise of the Father, but were not born again.

Remember Romans 8:9-11.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

John 1:12-13 is speaking of those who received Jesus during His earthy ministry, before His death on the cross (John 19:17-42). This is why there was still a priesthood, and the Levitical Law was still being obeyed. This is why there was still a Temple. God did not dwell in man until there was blood to cleanse the temple. The Holy Spirit brings that blood with Him when He enters NT believers, only after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. I believe that this is one of the reasons why OT believers were not indwelt. the other is that they could not be born again without the indwelling.

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

See this thread.

What does the Bible teach us about the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

What happens spiritually that makes us born again? I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism. When we are placed...

www.baptistboard.com

romans 4 says I was saved by the very same faith Abraham was.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

The only difference is. we know what God did. Abraham had faith in what God was going to do.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

This passage does not teach that a person must be born again to believe.

Yes it does, also it teaches one has to be given the right and ability to believe. Its only given [to believe] to the seed of Abraham, the Spiritual seed, for Christ came only to lay hold on and rescue them, hence He took on Him the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


For, as we all know, He (Christ) does not take hold of [the fallen] angels [to give them a helping hand], but He does take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [extending to them His hand of deliverance].AMP


Indeed, it is obvious that he does not take hold of angels to help them; on the contrary, “He takes hold of the seed of Avraham.”CJB

 

[kyredneck]

These are two different discussions.

Back to Jn 1:12-13

12​	But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13​	who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you think those 'receiving Him' in v12 chose of their own free will to be born not of their own free will?

You see it as black and white.

Yes. You either hold to Total Depravity or you don't.

 

[Dave...]

romans 4 says I was saved by the very same faith Abraham was.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

The only difference is. we know what God did. Abraham had faith in what God was going to do.

Yes E, we are all saved by the same cross, but it had to actually happen. For us, it already happened, for them it was still in promise only. It was owed to them. These promises were/are realized through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, called the baptism/placing into/immersion with the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit Himself was called the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5) and fulfilled all the other promises, Like (EZ 36:26-37,John 7:38-39, to name a few). There's a difference between believers relationship with God before that Promise was realized, and after it was realized. Romans 4:13--The promise -- Abrahams faith was counted as righteousness. He had faith that God would fulfill the promises made to him. Not only would he be the father of many nations, but there was the promise of a future Redeemer. There were promises made like I just gave (EZ 36:26-37, highlighted later in John 7:38-39) He trusted in what had not yet happened, this served as a model of faith for all OT believers to follow.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

When Peter claimed the salvation had come to the Gentiles in Acts, he wasn't just trying to prove to the Jews that God works through all peoples, He was making a clear statement that at the time of Pentecost, that actual salvation came to the Gentiles, just like actual salvation came to the Jews at Pentecost. The literal realization of promises made began to be realized at Pentecost. That's when the first people were placed into Christ and justified (1 Cor. 12:13). That's when Abraham justification was realized, and allowed him to be with the Father. Up until that point, nobody ascended but He who descended (John 3:13-14). It was in Abrahams bosom that the OT believers dead were kept. Which was in Sheol/Hades.

This is for @kyredneck too.

The Sheep that Jesus spoke of are those OT believers who trusted in the OT revelation. The Father gave them to the Son. All true OT believers in OT revelation still alive at that time will hear His voice and come to Him. A true OT faith in OT revelation will hear and believe the Gospel. These are already counted as righteous by faith, thus they are "appointed to eternal life" and will believe (Acts 13). They were given the right to become children of God (John 1:12-13), realized at Pentecost. The Sheep of that fold (OT Jewish believers in OT revelation (John 10:16), and the Sheep of the other fold (OT Gentiles believers who believed in OT revelation-John 10:16), and the fruit of both their preaching to future believers, who if they believe, will also become sheep (John 17:20).

Jesus prayer that they all be one (John 17:20-21) was answered in the baptizing with the Holy Spirit (NT indwelling) that began at Pentecost (1 Corinthians 12:13). Gentiles and Jews both placed into the Body and made to drink from one Spirit.

John 10:26-27 and John 8:47 -- The people in those passages didn't hear and believe the NT Gospel because they were not His sheep, meaning they were not true OT believers in OT revelation, thus proving that they were not given to Jesus by the Father. True OT believers in OT revelation would hear and believe.

OT believers who were already dead waited in Abrahams bosom, or Paradise, which was in Sheol/Hades at that time (Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27-36). They waited for the cross, and the realization of that promise. That's why they couldn't be in the presence of the Father, because their sin was not yet atoned for (Romans 3:25-26), there was no imputed righteousness, *yet*, because Jesus didn't yet fulfill the Law as a man. There was no born again, because the agent of that placing into was not yet given. There was no death and resurrection to die in and be raised up in. We are all saved both judicially and practically (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You must be "in Christ" to experience the benefit of this resurrection, both positionally and practically. There must be a death and resurrection, and perfect righteousness of Jesus as a man must actually happen for atonement. Nobody was in Christ until Pentecost. All the things that needed to happen had happened ("it is finished" John 19:30).

The OT believers in OT revelation would hear the Gospel. In His ascension, Jesus takes Abrahams bosom with Him (Eph 4:8-10), Paradise was taken to the third heaven is evidenced by the fact that Paul made this reference later in 2 Cor. 12:2-4). There was no place for OT believers who believed in OT revelation to go to. They had to believe the Gospel and be upgraded, born again, in Christ. This is the transition taking place at the birth of the Church in Acts, when the first believers were placed into Christ. All the true OT beliers who believed in OT revelation, the sheep, did hear the Gospel and believed, that means all that the Father gave to Him, He did not lose one of them, except Judas.

This is important. It you read John chapter 10, and John chapter 17 in this light, you'll see it. Everywhere where Jesus talks about the sheep. These are OT believers promised salvation and justified by OT revelation faith. They will hear the Gospel and believe, because that's the evidence of a true OT faith, that they hear Jesus and believe the Gospel. That's what defines the sheep.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes E, we are all saved by the same cross, but it had to actually happen. For us, it already happened, for them it was still in promise only. It was owed to them. These promises were/are realized through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, called the baptism/placing into/immersion with the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit Himself was called the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5) and fulfilled all the other promises, Like (EZ 36:26-37,John 7:38-39, to name a few). There's a difference between believers relationship with God before that Promise was realized, and after it was realized. Romans 4:13--The promise -- Abrahams faith was counted as righteousness. He had faith that God would fulfill the promises made to him. Not only would he be the father of many nations, but there was the promise of a future Redeemer. There were promises made like I just gave (EZ 36:26-37, highlighted later in John 7:38-39) He trusted in what had not yet happened, this served as a model of faith for all OT believers to follow.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

When Peter claimed the salvation had come to the Gentiles in Acts, he wasn't just trying to prove to the Jews that God works through all peoples, He was making a clear statement that at the time of Pentecost, that actual salvation came to the Gentiles, just like actual salvation came to the Jews at Pentecost. The literal realization of promises made began to be realized at Pentecost. That's when the first people were placed into Christ and justified (1 Cor. 12:13). That's when Abraham justification was realized, and allowed him to be with the Father. Up until that point, nobody ascended but He who descended (John 3:13-14). It was in Abrahams bosom that the OT believers dead were kept. Which was in Sheol/Hades.

This is for @kyredneck too.

The Sheep that Jesus spoke of are those OT believers who trusted in the OT revelation. The Father gave them to the Son. All true OT believers in OT revelation still alive at that time will hear His voice and come to Him. A true OT faith in OT revelation will hear and believe the Gospel. These are already counted as righteous by faith, thus they are "appointed to eternal life" and will believe (Acts 13). They were given the right to become children of God (John 1:12-13), realized at Pentecost. The Sheep of that fold (OT Jewish believers in OT revelation (John 10:16), and the Sheep of the other fold (OT Gentiles believers who believed in OT revelation-John 10:16), and the fruit of both their preaching to future believers, who if they believe, will also become sheep (John 17:20).

Jesus prayer that they all be one (John 17:20-21) was answered in the baptizing with the Holy Spirit (NT indwelling) that began at Pentecost (1 Corinthians 12:13). Gentiles and Jews both placed into the Body and made to drink from one Spirit.

John 10:26-27 and John 8:47 -- The people in those passages didn't hear and believe the NT Gospel because they were not His sheep, meaning they were not true OT believers in OT revelation, thus proving that they were not given to Jesus by the Father. True OT believers in OT revelation would hear and believe.

OT believers who were already dead waited in Abrahams bosom, or Paradise, which was in Sheol/Hades at that time (Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27-36). They waited for the cross, and the realization of that promise. That's why they couldn't be in the presence of the Father, because their sin was not yet atoned for (Romans 3:25-26), there was no imputed righteousness, *yet*, because Jesus didn't yet fulfill the Law as a man. There was no born again, because the agent of that placing into was not yet given. There was no death and resurrection to die in and be raised up in. We are all saved both judicially and practically (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You must be "in Christ" to experience the benefit of this resurrection, both positionally and practically. There must be a death and resurrection, and perfect righteousness of Jesus as a man must actually happen for atonement. Nobody was in Christ until Pentecost. All the things that needed to happen had happened ("it is finished" John 19:30).

The OT believers in OT revelation would hear the Gospel. In His ascension, Jesus takes Abrahams bosom with Him (Eph 4:8-10), Paradise was taken to the third heaven is evidenced by the fact that Paul made this reference later in 2 Cor. 12:2-4). There was no place for OT believers who believed in OT revelation to go to. They had to believe the Gospel and be upgraded, born again, in Christ. This is the transition taking place at the birth of the Church in Acts, when the first believers were placed into Christ. All the true OT beliers who believed in OT revelation, the sheep, did hear the Gospel and believed, that means all that the Father gave to Him, He did not lose one of them, except Judas.

This is important. It you read John chapter 10, and John chapter 17 in this light, you'll see it. Everywhere where Jesus talks about the sheep. These are OT believers promised salvation and justified by OT revelation faith. They will hear the Gospel and believe, because that's the evidence of a true OT faith, that they hear Jesus and believe the Gospel. That's what defines the sheep.

I am his sheep.

but thank you

 

[Dave G]

This is one of a few proof texts used to prove that man must be born again before He can believe. The problem is that this text doesn't actually say that.

" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. " ( John 1:11-13, AV )

This tells me that the Lord Jesus came to His own ( Israel ), and they "received Him not" ( did not welcome Him ).
But as many as did welcome Him, were given the "right / power / authority" ( Greek, ἐξουσίαν ) to "be" ( Greek, γενέσθαι ) the sons of God.

Those that did receive Him, and were given the authority to be the sons of God, were born of God ( born again ).
They were not born again as a result of blood ( inheritance ), nor of their own wills ( the will of the flesh ), nor of the will of man ( other people's wills )...
But of God's will.

The reason I see this this way, is because of what I see in Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many other places;
Where things that God wants done ( for example, saving one person and damning another ), take place independently of the thoughts and desires of men ( Daniel 4:35 ).

Sounds like a slam dunk, right?

It does to me.
But coupled with what is stated in Acts 16... that the Lord opened the heart of Lydia ( i.e, made her born again ) for the specific purpose that she would listen to the things that were spoken by Paul, I begin to see something that perhaps you might not be seeing.

 

[Dave G]

This is still OT. That is relevant. Because nobody was indwelt in the OT. As a result, nobody was born again. Not until Pentecost. Notice that it says He gave the "right to become children of God".

Unless one takes into account that a person has to be born again to even see the kingdom of God ( John 3:3 ), then I can see why you might be stopping there.
However, God's word goes on to give us more details:

We're also told that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in it ( Matthew 8 ), which means ( to me ) that the new birth and its evidence of a changed heart towards God ( plus a true heart-felt desire to seek Him and obey Him ) were and are indeed present among men... as far back as Abel.
After all, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ( "Old Testament" saints ) are there, and one must be born again to even be there.

So, if the new birth were something only reserved for those of God's elect after the Lord Jesus was crucified and rose again, then how did David, Samuel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Gideon, Samson and a whole host of others get there...
And how did they go from being haters of God ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, etc ) to loving Him, respecting Him and His words, and seeking to obey Him despite their filthy flesh?

The answer ( at least as far as is evident to me ), my friend, is that He chose them and caused them to approach unto Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), just as the Lord revealed to David.
That "cause" was indeed the new birth.

 

[Dave G]

I think that the traditional Calvinist interpretation of "seeing the kingdom in John 3:3 goes a little too far. They believed and were due the Promise of the Father, but were not born again.

Remember Romans 8:9-11.

And let us also remember the rest of Romans, which includes some very pointed details;
Especially with regard to the Lord only predestinating those whom He foreknew, conforming them to the image of His Son, calling them, justifying them and glorifying them.
All while making vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, and having mercy upon whom He will have mercy;
And hardening the hearts of whom He wants to harden, like He did with Pharoah.

Dave, I urge you to re-read the entire letter again ( from the beginning ), and let the words "sink down into your"ears" my friend.

Not being raised a "Calvinist" ( quite the contrary, I was raised in Independent Baptist circles that taught the opposite of what I would later come to understand through my own studies in the Scriptures ), I can tell you that there is much in His word about many subjects...
Much that people, including myself, didn't see until sometimes the 40th time through in their studies.


May God bless you sir.