John 1:12-13 revisited.

[Dave...]

This is one of a few proof texts used to prove that man must be born again before He can believe. The problem is that this text doesn't actually say that.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sounds like a slam dunk, right?

This is still OT. That is relevant. Because nobody was indwelt in the OT. As a result, nobody was born again. Not until Pentecost. Notice that it says He gave the "right to become children of God".

The evidence of being born of God was the result of believing, albeit, the promise delayed because of the transition from the OT to the NT. The promise was made at that time, because they already believed, but the promise fulfilled was later at Pentecost. So the 'born of God' part of that passage, while looking back, looks back to a future promise that was yet unfulfilled. It was tradition that was read into the text. It just goes to show, people can be just as wrong in the Greek as in English when driven by tradition.

The NEV did a great job with the translation.

NEV--John 1:12-13 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

This passage does not teach that a person must be born again to believe. It teaches that they believed before they were born again.

I'll do John 3:3 and 1 John 5:1 next.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

this was not OT. This is John making a statement, he wrote this After Jesus died.

he said, He came into his own, but his own received him not. But as many ad DID receive him, to them he gave the power people are still receiving him today. and people are still not receiving him

 

[kyredneck]

This is one of a few proof texts used to prove that man must be born again before He can believe. The problem is that this text doesn't actually say that.

The text is in the same vein as:

Acts Chapter 13

48​	And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John Chapter 10

26​	But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27​	My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John Chapter 8

47​	He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Dave...]

this was not OT. This is John making a statement, he wrote this After Jesus died.

he said, He came into his own, but his own received him not. But as many ad DID receive him, to them he gave the power people are still receiving him today. and people are still not receiving him

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

John 1:12-13 is speaking of those who received Jesus during His earthy ministry, before His death on the cross (John 19:17-42). This is why there was still a priesthood, and the Levitical Law was still being obeyed. This is why there was still a Temple. God did not dwell in man until there was blood to cleanse the temple. The Holy Spirit brings that blood with Him when He enters NT believers, only after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. I believe that this is one of the reasons why OT believers were not indwelt. the other is that they could not be born again without the indwelling.

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

See this thread.

What does the Bible teach us about the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

What happens spiritually that makes us born again? I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism. When we are placed...

www.baptistboard.com

 

[Dave...]

The text is in the same vein as:

Acts Chapter 13

48​	And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John Chapter 10

26​	But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27​	My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John Chapter 8

47​	He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Hey KY

These are two different discussions. You see it as black and white. In other words, if they weren't born again, then it must be from the flesh. But OT believers had the Holy Spirit upon them. That didn't make them born again, but it did have an effect on them. And there are other things to consider, like the power of God's Word and God drawing people. These can be done without being born again, as is evidenced by the fact that people believed in the OT without being born again. Clearly, the "seeing the kingdom" was still lacking per John 16:11-15 below...

John 16:11-15 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

I think that the traditional Calvinist interpretation of "seeing the kingdom in John 3:3 goes a little too far. They believed and were due the Promise of the Father, but were not born again.

Remember Romans 8:9-11.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

John 1:12-13 is speaking of those who received Jesus during His earthy ministry, before His death on the cross (John 19:17-42). This is why there was still a priesthood, and the Levitical Law was still being obeyed. This is why there was still a Temple. God did not dwell in man until there was blood to cleanse the temple. The Holy Spirit brings that blood with Him when He enters NT believers, only after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. I believe that this is one of the reasons why OT believers were not indwelt. the other is that they could not be born again without the indwelling.

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

See this thread.

What does the Bible teach us about the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

What happens spiritually that makes us born again? I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism. When we are placed...

www.baptistboard.com

romans 4 says I was saved by the very same faith Abraham was.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

The only difference is. we know what God did. Abraham had faith in what God was going to do.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

This passage does not teach that a person must be born again to believe.

Yes it does, also it teaches one has to be given the right and ability to believe. Its only given [to believe] to the seed of Abraham, the Spiritual seed, for Christ came only to lay hold on and rescue them, hence He took on Him the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


For, as we all know, He (Christ) does not take hold of [the fallen] angels [to give them a helping hand], but He does take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [extending to them His hand of deliverance].AMP


Indeed, it is obvious that he does not take hold of angels to help them; on the contrary, “He takes hold of the seed of Avraham.”CJB

 

[kyredneck]

These are two different discussions.

Back to Jn 1:12-13

12​	But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13​	who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you think those 'receiving Him' in v12 chose of their own free will to be born not of their own free will?

You see it as black and white.

Yes. You either hold to Total Depravity or you don't.

 

[Dave...]

romans 4 says I was saved by the very same faith Abraham was.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

The only difference is. we know what God did. Abraham had faith in what God was going to do.

Yes E, we are all saved by the same cross, but it had to actually happen. For us, it already happened, for them it was still in promise only. It was owed to them. These promises were/are realized through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, called the baptism/placing into/immersion with the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit Himself was called the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5) and fulfilled all the other promises, Like (EZ 36:26-37,John 7:38-39, to name a few). There's a difference between believers relationship with God before that Promise was realized, and after it was realized. Romans 4:13--The promise -- Abrahams faith was counted as righteousness. He had faith that God would fulfill the promises made to him. Not only would he be the father of many nations, but there was the promise of a future Redeemer. There were promises made like I just gave (EZ 36:26-37, highlighted later in John 7:38-39) He trusted in what had not yet happened, this served as a model of faith for all OT believers to follow.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

When Peter claimed the salvation had come to the Gentiles in Acts, he wasn't just trying to prove to the Jews that God works through all peoples, He was making a clear statement that at the time of Pentecost, that actual salvation came to the Gentiles, just like actual salvation came to the Jews at Pentecost. The literal realization of promises made began to be realized at Pentecost. That's when the first people were placed into Christ and justified (1 Cor. 12:13). That's when Abraham justification was realized, and allowed him to be with the Father. Up until that point, nobody ascended but He who descended (John 3:13-14). It was in Abrahams bosom that the OT believers dead were kept. Which was in Sheol/Hades.

This is for @kyredneck too.

The Sheep that Jesus spoke of are those OT believers who trusted in the OT revelation. The Father gave them to the Son. All true OT believers in OT revelation still alive at that time will hear His voice and come to Him. A true OT faith in OT revelation will hear and believe the Gospel. These are already counted as righteous by faith, thus they are "appointed to eternal life" and will believe (Acts 13). They were given the right to become children of God (John 1:12-13), realized at Pentecost. The Sheep of that fold (OT Jewish believers in OT revelation (John 10:16), and the Sheep of the other fold (OT Gentiles believers who believed in OT revelation-John 10:16), and the fruit of both their preaching to future believers, who if they believe, will also become sheep (John 17:20).

Jesus prayer that they all be one (John 17:20-21) was answered in the baptizing with the Holy Spirit (NT indwelling) that began at Pentecost (1 Corinthians 12:13). Gentiles and Jews both placed into the Body and made to drink from one Spirit.

John 10:26-27 and John 8:47 -- The people in those passages didn't hear and believe the NT Gospel because they were not His sheep, meaning they were not true OT believers in OT revelation, thus proving that they were not given to Jesus by the Father. True OT believers in OT revelation would hear and believe.

OT believers who were already dead waited in Abrahams bosom, or Paradise, which was in Sheol/Hades at that time (Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27-36). They waited for the cross, and the realization of that promise. That's why they couldn't be in the presence of the Father, because their sin was not yet atoned for (Romans 3:25-26), there was no imputed righteousness, *yet*, because Jesus didn't yet fulfill the Law as a man. There was no born again, because the agent of that placing into was not yet given. There was no death and resurrection to die in and be raised up in. We are all saved both judicially and practically (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You must be "in Christ" to experience the benefit of this resurrection, both positionally and practically. There must be a death and resurrection, and perfect righteousness of Jesus as a man must actually happen for atonement. Nobody was in Christ until Pentecost. All the things that needed to happen had happened ("it is finished" John 19:30).

The OT believers in OT revelation would hear the Gospel. In His ascension, Jesus takes Abrahams bosom with Him (Eph 4:8-10), Paradise was taken to the third heaven is evidenced by the fact that Paul made this reference later in 2 Cor. 12:2-4). There was no place for OT believers who believed in OT revelation to go to. They had to believe the Gospel and be upgraded, born again, in Christ. This is the transition taking place at the birth of the Church in Acts, when the first believers were placed into Christ. All the true OT beliers who believed in OT revelation, the sheep, did hear the Gospel and believed, that means all that the Father gave to Him, He did not lose one of them, except Judas.

This is important. It you read John chapter 10, and John chapter 17 in this light, you'll see it. Everywhere where Jesus talks about the sheep. These are OT believers promised salvation and justified by OT revelation faith. They will hear the Gospel and believe, because that's the evidence of a true OT faith, that they hear Jesus and believe the Gospel. That's what defines the sheep.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes E, we are all saved by the same cross, but it had to actually happen. For us, it already happened, for them it was still in promise only. It was owed to them. These promises were/are realized through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, called the baptism/placing into/immersion with the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit Himself was called the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5) and fulfilled all the other promises, Like (EZ 36:26-37,John 7:38-39, to name a few). There's a difference between believers relationship with God before that Promise was realized, and after it was realized. Romans 4:13--The promise -- Abrahams faith was counted as righteousness. He had faith that God would fulfill the promises made to him. Not only would he be the father of many nations, but there was the promise of a future Redeemer. There were promises made like I just gave (EZ 36:26-37, highlighted later in John 7:38-39) He trusted in what had not yet happened, this served as a model of faith for all OT believers to follow.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

When Peter claimed the salvation had come to the Gentiles in Acts, he wasn't just trying to prove to the Jews that God works through all peoples, He was making a clear statement that at the time of Pentecost, that actual salvation came to the Gentiles, just like actual salvation came to the Jews at Pentecost. The literal realization of promises made began to be realized at Pentecost. That's when the first people were placed into Christ and justified (1 Cor. 12:13). That's when Abraham justification was realized, and allowed him to be with the Father. Up until that point, nobody ascended but He who descended (John 3:13-14). It was in Abrahams bosom that the OT believers dead were kept. Which was in Sheol/Hades.

This is for @kyredneck too.

The Sheep that Jesus spoke of are those OT believers who trusted in the OT revelation. The Father gave them to the Son. All true OT believers in OT revelation still alive at that time will hear His voice and come to Him. A true OT faith in OT revelation will hear and believe the Gospel. These are already counted as righteous by faith, thus they are "appointed to eternal life" and will believe (Acts 13). They were given the right to become children of God (John 1:12-13), realized at Pentecost. The Sheep of that fold (OT Jewish believers in OT revelation (John 10:16), and the Sheep of the other fold (OT Gentiles believers who believed in OT revelation-John 10:16), and the fruit of both their preaching to future believers, who if they believe, will also become sheep (John 17:20).

Jesus prayer that they all be one (John 17:20-21) was answered in the baptizing with the Holy Spirit (NT indwelling) that began at Pentecost (1 Corinthians 12:13). Gentiles and Jews both placed into the Body and made to drink from one Spirit.

John 10:26-27 and John 8:47 -- The people in those passages didn't hear and believe the NT Gospel because they were not His sheep, meaning they were not true OT believers in OT revelation, thus proving that they were not given to Jesus by the Father. True OT believers in OT revelation would hear and believe.

OT believers who were already dead waited in Abrahams bosom, or Paradise, which was in Sheol/Hades at that time (Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27-36). They waited for the cross, and the realization of that promise. That's why they couldn't be in the presence of the Father, because their sin was not yet atoned for (Romans 3:25-26), there was no imputed righteousness, *yet*, because Jesus didn't yet fulfill the Law as a man. There was no born again, because the agent of that placing into was not yet given. There was no death and resurrection to die in and be raised up in. We are all saved both judicially and practically (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You must be "in Christ" to experience the benefit of this resurrection, both positionally and practically. There must be a death and resurrection, and perfect righteousness of Jesus as a man must actually happen for atonement. Nobody was in Christ until Pentecost. All the things that needed to happen had happened ("it is finished" John 19:30).

The OT believers in OT revelation would hear the Gospel. In His ascension, Jesus takes Abrahams bosom with Him (Eph 4:8-10), Paradise was taken to the third heaven is evidenced by the fact that Paul made this reference later in 2 Cor. 12:2-4). There was no place for OT believers who believed in OT revelation to go to. They had to believe the Gospel and be upgraded, born again, in Christ. This is the transition taking place at the birth of the Church in Acts, when the first believers were placed into Christ. All the true OT beliers who believed in OT revelation, the sheep, did hear the Gospel and believed, that means all that the Father gave to Him, He did not lose one of them, except Judas.

This is important. It you read John chapter 10, and John chapter 17 in this light, you'll see it. Everywhere where Jesus talks about the sheep. These are OT believers promised salvation and justified by OT revelation faith. They will hear the Gospel and believe, because that's the evidence of a true OT faith, that they hear Jesus and believe the Gospel. That's what defines the sheep.

I am his sheep.

but thank you

 

[Dave G]

This is one of a few proof texts used to prove that man must be born again before He can believe. The problem is that this text doesn't actually say that.

" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. " ( John 1:11-13, AV )

This tells me that the Lord Jesus came to His own ( Israel ), and they "received Him not" ( did not welcome Him ).
But as many as did welcome Him, were given the "right / power / authority" ( Greek, ἐξουσίαν ) to "be" ( Greek, γενέσθαι ) the sons of God.

Those that did receive Him, and were given the authority to be the sons of God, were born of God ( born again ).
They were not born again as a result of blood ( inheritance ), nor of their own wills ( the will of the flesh ), nor of the will of man ( other people's wills )...
But of God's will.

The reason I see this this way, is because of what I see in Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many other places;
Where things that God wants done ( for example, saving one person and damning another ), take place independently of the thoughts and desires of men ( Daniel 4:35 ).

Sounds like a slam dunk, right?

It does to me.
But coupled with what is stated in Acts 16... that the Lord opened the heart of Lydia ( i.e, made her born again ) for the specific purpose that she would listen to the things that were spoken by Paul, I begin to see something that perhaps you might not be seeing.

 

[Dave G]

This is still OT. That is relevant. Because nobody was indwelt in the OT. As a result, nobody was born again. Not until Pentecost. Notice that it says He gave the "right to become children of God".

Unless one takes into account that a person has to be born again to even see the kingdom of God ( John 3:3 ), then I can see why you might be stopping there.
However, God's word goes on to give us more details:

We're also told that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in it ( Matthew 8 ), which means ( to me ) that the new birth and its evidence of a changed heart towards God ( plus a true heart-felt desire to seek Him and obey Him ) were and are indeed present among men... as far back as Abel.
After all, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ( "Old Testament" saints ) are there, and one must be born again to even be there.

So, if the new birth were something only reserved for those of God's elect after the Lord Jesus was crucified and rose again, then how did David, Samuel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Gideon, Samson and a whole host of others get there...
And how did they go from being haters of God ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, etc ) to loving Him, respecting Him and His words, and seeking to obey Him despite their filthy flesh?

The answer ( at least as far as is evident to me ), my friend, is that He chose them and caused them to approach unto Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), just as the Lord revealed to David.
That "cause" was indeed the new birth.

 

[Dave G]

I think that the traditional Calvinist interpretation of "seeing the kingdom in John 3:3 goes a little too far. They believed and were due the Promise of the Father, but were not born again.

Remember Romans 8:9-11.

And let us also remember the rest of Romans, which includes some very pointed details;
Especially with regard to the Lord only predestinating those whom He foreknew, conforming them to the image of His Son, calling them, justifying them and glorifying them.
All while making vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, and having mercy upon whom He will have mercy;
And hardening the hearts of whom He wants to harden, like He did with Pharoah.

Dave, I urge you to re-read the entire letter again ( from the beginning ), and let the words "sink down into your"ears" my friend.

Not being raised a "Calvinist" ( quite the contrary, I was raised in Independent Baptist circles that taught the opposite of what I would later come to understand through my own studies in the Scriptures ), I can tell you that there is much in His word about many subjects...
Much that people, including myself, didn't see until sometimes the 40th time through in their studies.


May God bless you sir.

 

[Dave...]

" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. " ( John 1:11-13, AV )

This tells me that the Lord Jesus came to His own ( Israel ), and they "received Him not" ( did not welcome Him ).
But as many as did welcome Him, were given the "right / power / authority" ( Greek, ἐξουσίαν ) to "be" ( Greek, γενέσθαι ) the sons of God.

Those that did receive Him, and were given the authority to be the sons of God, were born of God ( born again ).
They were not born again as a result of blood ( inheritance ), nor of their own wills ( the will of the flesh ), nor of the will of man ( other people's wills )...
But of God's will.

The reason I see this this way, is because of what I see in Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many other places;
Where things that God wants done ( for example, saving one person and damning another ), take place independently of the thoughts and desires of men ( Daniel 4:35 ).



It does to me.
But coupled with what is stated in Acts 16... that the Lord opened the heart of Lydia ( i.e, made her born again ) for the specific purpose that she would listen to the things that were spoken by Paul, I begin to see something that perhaps you might not be seeing.

Hey Dave, thanks for the reply.

It is vert important to recognize the transition taking place from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, or the Old Testament to the New Testament. There are promises that were made way back in the OT that are being fulfilled at that transition. One of them is that God will no longer dwell in the Temple, but will dwell within believers. The transition starts from Christ's ascension, to Pentecost, to the believing Jews receiving the Promise of the Father (indwelling), the Holy Spirit promised to them from all the way Back to EZ. 36:26-27, and then the Gentiles receiving the Same Holy Spirit indwelling by the hands of the Apostles, then later, even some OT believers who missed the whole thing and never heard the Gospel, but were true OT believers, they believed the Gospel and received the the Holy Spirit.

In John 1:12-13, when that right was realized, they will be Sons of God, thus born again. This is all the result of believing, or receiving Him. The "right to become sons of God" is the result of them receiving Him, or believing in Him. That's what the verse says. The born of God part, is part of the Sons of God part. Even if you didn't believe that part was future, distinct and separate from when that right was given, which I do, it's undeniable that all of that is still the result of believing.

Being born again is dependent on the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus happening first, and only then could He give the Holy Spirit of promise, placed into the believers by Himself, thus placing believers into the Body, making believers one with Him, and making us one with the Father, justified and born again. All of theses passages from John and Matthew are OT passages. Think about the implications of what this next passage is saying. It connects being born again with the indwelling, and tells you that it won't happen until Christ is glorified. Now that's a slam dunk if I ever seen one. And it's not just one passage, there are many more passages that say the same thing just as clearly. To ignore this context that I'm quoting is huge mistake, as it plays a critical part in the greater context of the bile, but more specifically, the questions at hand. Always consider the time frame of the passage. All of theses passages from John and Matthew are OT passages.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Within the context of speaking of being born of God, Jesus said the same thing...

-----------

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Compare to...

John 16:12-14 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

John 14:25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

-----------------------------

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Compare to...

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

-------------------------------

Not until Pentecost, was anyone indwelt with the Holy Spirit, thus not until Pentecost, was anyone born again. Promises do not cleanse temples, blood does.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.

There needed to be a death, resurrection and ascension, before the Agent of that immersion, the Holy Spirit could be given. It is by that 'placing into' that we are saved because it places us "in Christ" and gives us access to all the benefits of His resurrection, both literally (born again), and positionally (justified).

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

This actually brings us to God, not in promise, but in reality, thus salvation has come to the Gentiles...

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

It's a baptism by faith...We are all sons of God through faith...

Gal. 3:26-28 For you are all sons of God (John 1:12-13) through faith in Christ Jesus. (Future to John 1:12-13 -->) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

All placed into one Body and made to drink from One Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

This did not happen until Pentecost.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

John the Baptist prophesied about it.

Matthew 3:1 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

I'll need to respond to your other posts on Monday.

Dave

 

[Dave G]

In John 1:12-13, when that right was realized, they will be Sons of God, thus born again. This is all the result of believing, or receiving Him. The "right to become sons of God" is the result of them receiving Him, or believing in Him. That's what the verse says. The born of God part, is part of the Sons of God part. Even if you didn't believe that part was future, distinct and separate from when that right was given, which I do, it's undeniable that all of that is still the result of believing.

I'll try this one more time, Dave.

Again...
The passage tells us that they were not born of anything other than God and His will.
But it seems that in your mind, believing is receiving, and the thing that is desired...I.E. being born again ( which is a vital evidence for anyone being welcomed into the kingdom of God )... is somehow being gained from God by an act of belief...

Which is not what it tells us.
Rather, it says the opposite.

 

[Dave G]

In other words, do you understand what you're doing in your reasoning?
I'll describe it and see if you agree with me...

Because you understand that being born again is something that must happen in a person in order to enter the kingdom of God ( and it is indeed something that must happen, for all of His elect ), your mind, at least from my perspective, is searching for a way in...and that "way in" is to find a way to be born of God.

But this passage ( among others ) removes that possibility... by stating, in no uncertain terms, that the process of being born again is not something that is up to us as men.
Being born again is not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God determines who will be born again, Dave, not us.

My friend, according to the Scriptures, being born again cannot be gained by meeting a "requirement" or "set of requirements";
The Spirit moves where He wills ( John 3:8 ), not where we will Him to.
The new birth happens to a person independent of anything that we, as mere men, think or do...and only for those whom He has chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ).
I'm sorry to seem offensive, but there it is.

Paul tells us, very pointedly, when that decision was made.
That's why there is no way for anyone to get in, unless God has mercy upon them and saves them.
That is also why all those who are entering in, have only one thing that they can stand on:

His grace and mercy alone.
Not their belief, not their faith...nothing:

"Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to His cross I cling."--- Rock of Ages.


Salvation is by grace... not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Dave...]

I'll try this one more time, Dave.

Again...
The passage tells us that they were not born of anything other than God and His will.
But it seems that in your mind, believing is receiving, and the thing that is desired...I.E. being born again ( which is a vital evidence for anyone being welcomed into the kingdom of God )... is somehow being gained from God by an act of belief...

Which is not what it tells us.
Rather, it says the opposite.

Dave G

You're trying to reframe the discussion into an all or nothing argument. God's sovereignty vs. the flesh. God's sovereignty is not in question. What is in question is you're belief that a person must be born again to believe. Scripture does not allow your interpretation.

 

[Dave...]

" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. " ( John 1:11-13, AV )

This tells me that the Lord Jesus came to His own ( Israel ), and they "received Him not" ( did not welcome Him ).
But as many as did welcome Him, were given the "right / power / authority" ( Greek, ἐξουσίαν ) to "be" ( Greek, γενέσθαι ) the sons of God.

Those that did receive Him, and were given the authority to be the sons of God, were born of God ( born again ).
They were not born again as a result of blood ( inheritance ), nor of their own wills ( the will of the flesh ), nor of the will of man ( other people's wills )...
But of God's will.

The reason I see this this way, is because of what I see in Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many other places;
Where things that God wants done ( for example, saving one person and damning another ), take place independently of the thoughts and desires of men ( Daniel 4:35 ).



It does to me.
But coupled with what is stated in Acts 16... that the Lord opened the heart of Lydia ( i.e, made her born again ) for the specific purpose that she would listen to the things that were spoken by Paul, I begin to see something that perhaps you might not be seeing.

Dave

Lets start out with Eph. I'm happy that it says so much of God's sovereignty, but that does not prove that man must be born again before He believes. Look at chapter two, vs. 1-10. Right in the midst of explaining spiritual life to death, he says this.

vs. 5-6 even when we were dead in trespasses, (God vs. 4) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

I brought this vs. up for a few reasons. One, is that it clearly tells us that once we were dead in our trespasses and sins, and God Himself made us alive with Christ. It's all from God, not one bit of it is from the flesh, but it's all from the Spirit. The problem is that the life spoken of begins with the indwelling, which is a result of faith (Galatians 3:2-3). Calvinism stretches that context to include the faith that brings us to that union. Scripture does not teach this. That does not necessarily mean that it's not from God, it's just not born again before faith. Second, there is something very important said in vs. 6, "and raised us up together". That's born again. That's part of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the indwelling that places us in Christ. When we are placed into Christ, we are placed into His death (Gal. 2:20), and raised up with him. This is where life comes from. Before that, we, were dead in our trespasses and sins. Here's context for that statement "and raised us up together".

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? (Gal. 2:20) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Also see Gal. 3, Col. 2:10-14, and 1 Peter 3:21.)

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

"Through faith" means it was faith that was the vehicle that brought us to this grace.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What does Romans 8 say, but the same thing.

vs. 9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

-------------------------

Concerning Lydia. It says right in that same verse that Lydia was a worshiper of God.

Acts 16:14-15 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." So she persuaded us.

She was an OT believer. Remember, there is a transition taking place from the OT to the NT. She is one of the Sheep that we spoke of earlier that the Father gave to the Son. We see a similar opening of the Disciples understanding in Luke 24:45, and they already believed in the NT Gospel.

Luke 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

What they all had in common, the Disciples and Lydia, is that none of them were yet born again. The Disciples, the NT indwelling was owed to them by promise. Pentecost was right around the corner. Lydia, on the other hand, was and OT believer who needed to hear the Gospel and believe to receive the Holy Spirit, since Christ had already been glorified and the Holy Spirit was already given. She simply needed to believe the Gospel.

 

[Dave...]

Unless one takes into account that a person has to be born again to even see the kingdom of God ( John 3:3 ), then I can see why you might be stopping there.
However, God's word goes on to give us more details:

We're also told that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in it ( Matthew 8 ), which means ( to me ) that the new birth and its evidence of a changed heart towards God ( plus a true heart-felt desire to seek Him and obey Him ) were and are indeed present among men... as far back as Abel.
After all, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ( "Old Testament" saints ) are there, and one must be born again to even be there.

John 3:3 was addressed in post #5. And even more in #14

Not to mention that Jesus qualified all that with this statement. Nobody was born again until the Son of man was lifted up. This is consistent with what I've been saying and also consistent with Scripture.

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

So, if the new birth were something only reserved for those of God's elect after the Lord Jesus was crucified and rose again, then how did David, Samuel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Gideon, Samson and a whole host of others get there...

OT believers had two options. They either had the Holy Spirit upon them but not in them. Remember, promises do not cleanse temples, blood does. Or the Tabernacle/Temple. But they were not indwelt.

John 14:16-19 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

When David cried out for the Lord not to take His Spirit from Him, everyone assumes it was an indwelling, but the Holy Spirit could be taken just the same from being upon someone. There are some translations that say that certain people were indwelt in the OT, but those translations are not accurate as has been agreed upon by many. Mostly only the Prophets and important people had the Holy Spirit upon them. The rest relied on God dwelling in the Temple. God lived in the Temple. That had an effect on the people in the Old Testament. Gods presence does have an effect, as shown here...Jesus...

John 12:33-36 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. The people answered Him, "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

The Tabernacle/Temple foreshadowed God taking up residence in the New Testament believers (1 Corinthians 6:19)

And how did they go from being haters of God ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, etc ) to loving Him, respecting Him and His words, and seeking to obey Him despite their filthy flesh?

The answer ( at least as far as is evident to me ), my friend, is that He chose them and caused them to approach unto Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), just as the Lord revealed to David.
That "cause" was indeed the new birth.

There cannot be a new birth unless there is an indwelling. Plus, before the cross, there would be no death to die in, and no resurrection to be raised up with Him (Born again). And there would be no atonement, no righteousness of God to impute, and no Holy Spirit indwelling to place us "in Christ" (Romans 8:9-11), to give us access to those things once they did happen. Remember, promises don't cleanse Temples, blood does. God does not join himself to that which is unclean. Everyone was unclean until after the cross. That's why the Holy Spirit only went upon some in the OT, but never in them before the cross. That's why the Tabernacle/Temple needed to be cleansed with blood before the Priest could enter. This all pictured and foreshadowed the NT. Only then could the Holy Spirit bring with Him the blood to cleanse the Temple, that being us. That's why OT believers already dead had to wait in Sheol/Hades before they could ascend and be with the Father (John 3:13). It had to actually happen. OT believers, it was owed to them by promise, both the physically dead and those still living, and that is the transition that we see in Acts. That what the OT points to, the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

 

[Dave...]

In other words, do you understand what you're doing in your reasoning?
I'll describe it and see if you agree with me...

Because you understand that being born again is something that must happen in a person in order to enter the kingdom of God ( and it is indeed something that must happen, for all of His elect ), your mind, at least from my perspective, is searching for a way in...and that "way in" is to find a way to be born of God.

But this passage ( among others ) removes that possibility... by stating, in no uncertain terms, that the process of being born again is not something that is up to us as men.
Being born again is not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God determines who will be born again, Dave, not us.

My friend, according to the Scriptures, being born again cannot be gained by meeting a "requirement" or "set of requirements";
The Spirit moves where He wills ( John 3:8 ), not where we will Him to.
The new birth happens to a person independent of anything that we, as mere men, think or do...and only for those whom He has chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ).
I'm sorry to seem offensive, but there it is.

Paul tells us, very pointedly, when that decision was made.
That's why there is no way for anyone to get in, unless God has mercy upon them and saves them.
That is also why all those who are entering in, have only one thing that they can stand on:

His grace and mercy alone.
Not their belief, not their faith...nothing:

"Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to His cross I cling."--- Rock of Ages.


Salvation is by grace... not of works, lest any man should boast.

Dave, I was you.

I might know your theology better than you do. I'm simply asking you to let Scripture define itself. When you start with the idea that there are only two options, born again or the flesh, that's going to wreak havoc on your interpretation of Scripture.

Believe it or not, not all past reformed theologians believed that OT believers were born again. Martin Luther being one of them. Look it up. It's only recently that it has become the norm. I think todays reformed theology got lazy and big headed from arguing with Arminians. It made them dull in their understanding. Test yourself, honestly, and see what happens.

Dave