John 1:12-13 revisited.

[Brightfame52]

Cornelius and his group were OT believers. The sheep. Just like Lydia, just like Acts 19. It's the transition from the OT to the NT that I've been telling you about. Unrepeatable.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

No resurrection, no salvation.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The Holy Spirit indwelling places us in Christ. Then there must be the ingredients.

Cornelius was regenerated already by the Spirit. Yet he had not yet received the Spirit, he received it at hearing of Faith when Peter was preaching the Gospel to him Vs 44

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

He the Spirit just fell on them, not indwell them and regenerate them, for they were already new creatures with hearts that feared God.

 

[kyredneck]

Free willers?

(from post #8)

Back to Jn 1:12-13

12​	But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13​	who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you think those 'receiving Him' in v12 chose of their own free will to be born not of their own free will in v13?

 

[Dave...]

(from post #8)

Back to Jn 1:12-13

12​	But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13​	who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you think those 'receiving Him' in v12 chose of their own free will to be born not of their own free will in v13?

Hey ky

Sorry it took so long to reply.

The honest answer, I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. It could be the Spirit being upon the person that allowed them to believe. Though the Spirit being upon a believer in the OT was mostly, if not always for tasks to be performed. It could be from the Presence of Jesus, His incarnation (John 12:35-36). I believe that the Tabernacle or Temple had the same affect. Or it could be the Word itself. Which brings me to the last option, the flesh. Those are the options left, as I see it. I don't think that it is scripturally possible for them to be born again at that time, in the OT dispensation, or even before faith in the NT dispensation, since being born again is the result of faith. The born of God part is attached to the right to become children of God part. The wording being scrambled redefined the words "who were" in vs. 13 as the cause that faith, and is very misleading.

John 1:12 Greek Text Analysis

John 1:13 Greek Text Analysis

I posted the NEV because I felt that it represented what was meant in the original languages more accurately.

NEV--John 1:12-13 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Dave

 

[kyredneck]

what I'm trying to figure out

What I'm trying to figure out is why you think OT folks didn't need quickening but us NT folks do.

 

[Brightfame52]

What I'm trying to figure out is why you think OT folks didn't need quickening but us NT folks do.

The Psalmist understood the need for quickening to call upon the name of the Lord Ps 80:18

18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

He understood mans depravity and deadness to God And no doubt he was regenerated, he understood man by nature is Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

He was aware of mans innate sinfulness by birth Ps 51:5,11

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

And he was familiar with the work of the Spirit Vs 11

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[Dave...]

Cornelius was regenerated already by the Spirit. Yet he had not yet received the Spirit, he received it at hearing of Faith when Peter was preaching the Gospel to him Vs 44

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

He the Spirit just fell on them, not indwell them and regenerate them, for they were already new creatures with hearts that feared God.

Hey Bright

If by regenerated, you mean born again, one cannot be born again without the Spirit in them. And that's always in response to believing the Gospel. It's the Spirit baptism that places us in Christ. Being "in Christ", we are born again through the resurrection, being crucified with him, and raised up with Him. Thus, there is a baptism that saves-delivers (1 Peter 3:21). Explained here Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14, Gal. 3:26-27. That cannot happen unless a person trusts in Jesus and His work on the cross. Cornelius was placed into Christ after He heard the Gospel message from Peter and received the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit. At that moment, actual salvation came to Cornelius/Gentiles.

OT-John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

1 Peter 3:21 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Cornelius was a Gentile OT believer. He was a true OT believer. He needed to hear the Gospel, to take the next step. It was necessary. All the true OT believers had to do this. This is what is called the transition period during the birth of the Church. I believe that these are the Sheep that the Father gave to Jesus, that He would not lose one of them.

All this had to wait for the death resurrection and ascension. Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit (of the same kind) was with them , but would be in them (see John 14:16-20, 23, 25-26). These passage below clarify what is meant by "fell on them" in Acts 10:44, "poured out" in Acts 10:45.

Acts 10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 11:16-18 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Acts 15:8-9 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

If by regenerated, you mean born again, one cannot be born again without the Spirit in them. And that's always in response to believing the Gospel.

Thats wrong, Cornelius was already born again b4 hearing the Gospel and believing. What fell upn him in Acts 10 wasn't the newbirth

See you cant fear God without the Holy Spirit in you, man by nature, unregenerate has zero fear of God friend Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. But whats the testimony of Cornelius Acts 10:2

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

This was said way b4 he even heard the preaching of Peter and the Spirit falling upon him.

 

[Dave...]

What I'm trying to figure out is why you think OT folks didn't need quickening but us NT folks do.

We all need it, it's just that the vehicle to accomplish that wasn't available until the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. It was still a future promise.

EZ. 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

This promised was realized at Pentecost.

We are fond of saying that OT believers looked forward to the cross, and they did. But what is also important is that it had to actually happen. The Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ couldn't take up residence in a believer until He could bring with Him the Blood of Christ to cleanse us as His Temple, the Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19-20). Before that could happen there needed to be an atonement (the blood of Christ), there needed to be the righteousness of God established to be imputed to us, that is, Jesus living as a man, fulfilling God's righteous requirements as the Law demanded. All of this for the legality of our salvation that is received when we are spiritually immersed with Jesus, called the indwelling, or the baptism with the Holy Spirit. But also, as John 3 tells us, we also needed to be born again. This happens, or is also received, through the resurrection of Jesus, just as the legality of our salvation does (1 Peter 3:21). Being delivered/saved from both the power of sin, and the penalty of sin through the resurrection of Jesus. In being born again, when we receive the indwelling, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, we actually die with Christ and are raised up in Him, this is born again (Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14). That is why it is often described as being "raised up with Him" (Eph. 2:6), or through His resurrection we are born again (1 Peter 1:3).

The Holy Spirit could be upon OT believers, but He could not be in them. Jesus could be with OT believers, even those who came to trust the Gospel, but He couldn't be in them before the death and resurrection, and ascension. God could not take up residence with OT believers to give them these promises because they were unclean and there was no blood to cleanse the Temple. Even if they could be "in Christ" in the OT dispensation, there was still no ingredients to save them, both positionally and practically. This is why the giving of the Holy Spirit had to wait. There were no ingredients yet to save us, and no Blood to cleanse the Temple.

OT believers in OT revelation that had already passed on need to wait in Sheol/Hades before they could be with the Father (John 3:5). God's justice and righteous requirements needed to be satisfied. They too were unclean until the cross.

In short, nobody was saved-delivered from the penalty of sin, or the power of sin in the OT. It was promised. And there may have been some kind of a primitive form of regeneration that took place resulting from the things that I mentioned in my last post to you in this thread, but they weren't born again.

fwew! That's why. lol

Dave

Dave

 

[Dave...]

@Dave...



Thats wrong, Cornelius was already born again b4 hearing the Gospel and believing. What fell upn him in Acts 10 wasn't the newbirth

See you cant fear God without the Holy Spirit in you, man by nature, unregenerate has zero fear of God friend Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. But whats the testimony of Cornelius Acts 10:2

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

This was said way b4 he even heard the preaching of Peter and the Spirit falling upon him.

Hey Bright, check this out. This is NT, after the ascension reality. That would include Cornelius.

Romans 8:8-11 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Cornelius was a real OT believer who trusted in all the revelation given to Him from God at that time. But at that unique point in time, new revelation entered the picture. True OT believers, who were already declared righteous by OT standards, needed to hear the Gospel. It was a necessary step. Be carful when you try to use Acts in any way to establish the norm for today. It was a very unique point in time with unrepeatable circumstances.

Anyone walking around today still believing in what Cornelius believed before He heard the Gospel would not be saved. Back then, in the OT dispensation, yes, but not now, and not when the Gospel, the new revelation entered the picture. Paradise was no longer in Sheol/Hades after the ascension of Jesus. It's straight to the Father for believers, or for unbelievers, to the unbeliever side of Sheol/Hades to wait for the great white throne judgment.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

EZ. 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Not actually, only more prominently, old testament believers had that same heart, but it was just a few compared to the totality of the people. No doubt David had that same heart when he prayed Ps 51:10

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

How would he know to even supplicate for such a blessing, a creation ? No dout these had it also Ps 73:1

Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

Now this cant be talking about an unregenerate heart. And we see people had it, that proves regeneration in the OT

 

[kyredneck]

What I'm trying to figure out is why you think OT folks didn't need quickening but us NT folks do.

the vehicle to accomplish that wasn't available

?!?!

Genesis Chapter 1

2​	And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
3​	And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

2nd Corinthians Chapter 4

6​	Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

No 'hearing' involved in it. John the Baptist filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, David made to hope while on his mother's breast, Isaac born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning, Paul separated from his mother's womb to preach Christ among the Gentiles, preachers don't convey the Spirit of God, He goes where He wants.

 

[Dave...]

@Dave...



Thats wrong, Cornelius was already born again b4 hearing the Gospel and believing. What fell upn him in Acts 10 wasn't the newbirth

See you cant fear God without the Holy Spirit in you, man by nature, unregenerate has zero fear of God friend Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. But whats the testimony of Cornelius Acts 10:2

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

This was said way b4 he even heard the preaching of Peter and the Spirit falling upon him.

Still future, just before the cross.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

How's this for understanding? Just before His ascension Jesus said this to His disciples.

Luke 24: 44-49 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."

Remembers, the Spirit of Christ must be in them.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 16:7-9, 12-13 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;... I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

 

[Brightfame52]

Hey Bright, check this out.

Romans 8:8-11 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

okay. So that should prove to you that Cornelius was regenerated. Didnt he please God and work righteousness Acts 10:35

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

God accepted his prayers and alms as good works Acts 10:4

And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Thats why God personally sent him the good news of His salvation so they could hear and believe Acts 15:7

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

So Cornelius belonged to God to Jesus/God prior to Peter being sent to him now if he didnt have the Spirit of Christ, he was none of his. Do you believe that for a second,, that Cornelius didnt belong to God in a very special way ?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

Still future, just before the cross.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Thats not talking about regeneration. Those who believed during His time were born of God Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now are you going to deny that the ones who believed in Him in Jn 7:39

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified )

That they were not born of God Jn 1:12-13