John 1:12-13 revisited.

[Dave...]

The text is in the same vein as:

Acts Chapter 13

48​	And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John Chapter 10

26​	But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27​	My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John Chapter 8

47​	He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Acts 13. These were OT God fearing Gentiles likely in the synagogue to worship right along side of the Jews (vs 13:42, 8:27-38). Paul went to those same synagogues to preach to the Gentiles along with the Jews. These were true OT believers, which were given to Jesus by the Father. Thus, they were already declared righteous (by promise) and appointed to eternal life. They needed to hear the Gospel and believe to be made one with Jesus, actually "in Christ". The Promise of the Father began to be given at Pentecost to those who had already heard the Gospel and believed before the DRA, including all true OT believers. First to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. There was a purpose in doing it that order. God was uniting the foundations of the Church that would evangelize the world. There was division between the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews would brush the Gentile dust from there feet after walking through Gentile areas. They would not eat food cooked by Gentiles hands. Gentiles were considered unclean by the Jews. The Gentiles didn't care much for the Jews either. God specifically used the Jewish Apostles to lay hands on the Gentiles so that the Gentiles understood that same Apostolic authority was speaking for God, and the Jews needed to know that God's plan of salvation included the Gentiles, as many didn't want to believe that, thus the jealousy that was provoked. Remember Peter when He said, salvation has come to the Gentiles also. This is all by design, as God was creating unity where there once was division.

The true OT believers that did not yet hear the Gospel needed to hear it to be made one with Jesus and saved. At that point there was no more holding cell. Pentecost had passed and Jesus had taken Paradise with Him to the Third Heaven. There was no Sheol/Hades to put them. Jesus was glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. True OT believers were not yet saved unless they were made one with Jesus by the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the indwelling, the Promise of the Father. The righteousness of God imputed, atonement applied, and being born again were only realized by being placed into Christ, thus, Pentecost, when the first believers were immersed into Christ, is called the birth of the Church. This was the transition spoken of in Acts, the birth of the Church.

Remember, some of the Gentiles were OT believers who only believed in OT revelation both before and after Pentecost. They still needed to hear the Gospel. Some OT Gentiles who heard and believed the Gospel both before and after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, only needed to wait to receive the Promise of the Father already due to them. Likewise with the Jews.

 

[Dave...]

Continued ...

Macarthur..

" the believers in Samaria who were converted under the ministry of Philip had to wait a short while to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, until Peter and John came up to Samaria and layed hands on the converts (Acts 8:17). In that unique transitional situation as the Church was beginning, those particular believers had to wait for the Holy Spirit, but they were not told to seek Him. The purpose for that exception was to demonstrate to the apostles, and to bring word back to the Jewish believers in general, that the same Holy Spirit baptized and filled Samaritan believers as baptized and filled Jewish believers--just a short while later Peter and a few other Jewish Christians were sent to witness to Cornelius and his household in order to be convinced that the gospel was for all men and to see that "the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also"(Acts 10:44-45). Those special transitional events did not represent the norm, as our present text makes clear, but were given to indicate to all that the body was one"....

"Why did the Samaritans (and later the Gentiles) have to wait for the apostles before receiving the Spirit? For centuries, the Samaritans and the Jews had been bitter rivals. If the Samaritans had received the Spirit independent of the Jerusalem, that rift would have been perpetuated. There could well have been two separate churches, a Jewish church and a Samaritan church. But God had designed one church, in which "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female," but "all are one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:2.)...

By delaying the Spirit's coming until Peter and John arrived, God preserved the unity of the church. The apostles needed to see for themselves, and give firsthand testimony to the Jerusalem church, that the Spirit came upon the Samaritans. The Samaritans also needed to learn that they were subject to apostolic authority. The Jewish believers and Samaritans were thus linked together in one body....

Today, believers receive the Spirit at salvation (cf.1 Cor. 12:13). There was no need for delay after Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, and Old Testament saints were already included in the church.

--------------

John 10:26-27. Likewise. The Sheep are those true OT believers given to Jesus by the Father. They will here the Gospel and will be justified and born again "in Christ" when they are made one with Him in that spiritual baptism called the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the NT indwelling that places us "in Christ". When God makes a Promise, He keeps it. That Promise of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that goes all the way back to EZ 36:26-27, and even in John 7:38-39 and following, and all the other promises off a Messiah to save His people, all began to be realized at Pentecost. Nobody was actually saved until they were made one with Jesus. That's how they were delivered from both the penalty of sin (justified) and the power of sin (born again).

John 8:47 Yes, these are the spiritual things that are understood by spirit. This is what was spoken of by Jesus in John 3, and we clearly see demonstrated by the Apostles, who already believed, but before Pentecost, before they were born again, could not comprehend these spiritual truths, and this is even recorded in Scripture . These are the deeper truths of Scripture.

NT-1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

OT-John 14:25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

OT-John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

OT-John 16:4-15 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them. And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Understanding that context, and more if you like, we can clearly see that there is no need to SSSTTTRRREEETTTCCCHHH the meaning of John 1:12-13 to mean that a man is born again before he believes. The passage simply doesn't say that. The right due, the Promise of the Father, needed to wait for Jesus to be glorified so there would be a death and resurrection to identify with to be born again, actual atonement to be applied, and righteousness of God to impute, all as a result of being spiritually "immersed" in Christ.

The difference between these Disciples in John 1:12-13 and those spoken of in Acts 13, is that those Disciples from John 1:12-13, true OT believers in OT revelation had already heard the Gospel and believed before Pentecost. Those Gentiles in Acts 13, already declared righteous by promise, who were true OT believers in OT revelation, still needed to hear the Gospel. In a sense, the Promise was owed to both, but one had one extra step to take. The same Promise applied to both, it's just that one had believed in the Gospel before Pentecost, thus the Promise was owed to them, and they only needed to receive Him. And those true OT believers in OT revelation in Acts 13 still needed to hear the Gospel, and believe, since it was after Pentecost, and Jesus was already glorified, they received the Holy Spirit at that same moment.

John 1:12-13 It's very simple. To those who believed, He gave the right to be born of God, thus making them children of God.

This right was realized when they are made one with Jesus Christ. As Jesus Himself said. Jesus must be lifted up (glorified), ***so that*** whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Eternal life happens after Jesus is glorified, and the spiritual union that saves is then possible. And the ingredients are actually made available from the union to actually save us.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

put two and two together

You're putting "the washing of renewing", as if it had anything to do with baptizing anyone, and then imagining the Spirit is ever a "baptizer".

the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

"There is one baptism, meaning of course, that there is one "kind" of Spirit, etc.,

in Ephesians 4:4 There is one "kind of" body, and one "kind of" Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one "kind of" faith, one "kind of" baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

You know that there is not just "one baptism" that has ever taken place on earth,
so the meaning is that there is one "kind of" baptism.

Water baptism is the only Biblical interpretation for expressing what "one baptism" means.

It means water baptism, which is a very important church ordinance God Ordained along with the Lord's Supper".

There is not a second "baptism" misunderstood in whatever way.

"Water baptism" + "Spirit baptism" =2 kinds of baptism.

Do the math.

You had made up another baptism that is only assumed.

The test is where someone is able to "not assume the Spirit baptizes".

If you don't assume it as a concoction of your imagination,
THEN TRY TO FIND IT ANYWHERE THAT CLEARLY "TEACHES" WHAT YOU ARE GUESSING ABOUT, and you know it.

Do those verses actually say in words what you believe or are you just assuming that it is there.

I tell you what, if you don't assume "SPIRIT BAPTISM", IT'S NOT IN THERE.

And you can't MAKE THE BIBLE CONTRADICT ITSELF WHERE IT SAYS, "ONE" BAPTISM.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

And while I agree that it is Jesus doing the Spirit baptizing, and the Holy Spirit being the agent of that placing into

This is correct, if the Bible is allowed to finish this thought, where I cut it off, and give the one answer to WHAT WAS BAPTIZED?

Jesus Baptized His first Divinely Originated and ORGANIZED church ASSEMBLY of saved souls there at Jerusalem with The Shekinah Glory.

The Lord had placed the disciples first into His kind of church assembly that He built,
when they were baptized in water by The Authority of God into membership in Jesus' first church there in Jerusalem.

All saved saints in the Old Testament and the New Testament had already been Indwelt by the Holy Spirit when they were BORN AGAIN.

John the Baptist had the Authority from God to baptize in water and he said Jesus would Baptize those present who were saved
would also receive a Special Supernatural Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit when Jesus Immersed His assembled church at Jerusalem.

it is Jesus doing the Spirit baptizing

Referring to the Christ Whose way he was sent to prepare, John, the Baptist declared:

"I Indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
(Mark 1:8 — the English word "with" here is from a Greek preposition may express and be translated "in.")


"Unless otherwise specified, the word baptism in the New Testament always refers to a dipping or immersion in water,
never to a mere sprinkling or pouring. Despite the general agreement of scholars on this fact,
however, a large part of Christendom prefers convenience to obedience and no longer practices baptism in water as a religious ordinance.

"Still more confusion prevails on the question of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

"Some people think it is synonymous with regeneration;

Some think it is a second or third "blessing" or experience subsequent to regeneration;

"and in recent years some sly seducers have confused it with an imaginary "spiritual baptism"
which they say puts every believer into their nonexistent invisible "church."

"Our present lesson, including key verse and context, sets forth the Biblical truth
that it was the church which Jesus had organized during His own personal ministry (Matthew 16:18; 18:17-20)
that He baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

"Like the virgin birth, the crucifixion, and the resurrection of Christ,
this was an actual event in history which never has been and never will be repeated.

"We ought not, because the Bible does not, refer to every demonstration of the Holy Spirit as a "baptism" in the Spirit.

"As an individual believer in Christ can be scripturally baptized in water only once,
so the divinely constituted and organized church of the Son of God was baptized in the Holy Spirit only once.

"Some signs of the Spirit's power were given to other persons on other occasions, as in Acts 8:16-17; 10:44-48; and 19:2-6;
but these were not additional "spiritual baptisms": they were reminders of that Pentecostal baptism,
establishing the right of other believers, including Gentiles, to a place in that same institution (Acts 11:15-18)."

For example, "Let all who lay claim to repeated experiences of Pentecostal baptism exhibit the signs that were manifested on that day, hold the same doctrines, and follow the same practices as that first church — and then we may begin to take their claims seriously."

From: STUDY OUTLINES ON ACTS
The Church Baptized
By Rosco Brong

Acts 2:1-8, 14-16, 36-43

the Holy Spirit being the agent of that placing into

But never "into" a lost soul to save them. That is never referred to by the word "baptism".
Those believers, with the Holy Spirit inside them, had THE MIRACULOUS GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT PLACED ON THEM
when Jesus baptized His people, His church on the Day of Pentecost.

Thus we have Jesus baptizing us with Jesus.

No. Nothing about us being baptized. Jesus baptized His church once, and He has Indwelt Jesus' churches ever since that Day,
by the Succession of the Authority of God in water baptism.

John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus baptized His church. You are right that a church is the saved people at particular locations,
but the Bible never refers to every saved soul as being in one of Jesus' churches when the generic, or institutional', use, "the church" is employed.

We don't say, "the husband is the head of the wife," and think we're involved with an 'invisible' husband and an 'invisible' wife.

Since it is invisible according to people, in their heads, somehow, and it is certainly invisible if you try to find it in the Bible,
there is nothing to compel anyone to think of 'the church' when it is mentioned in the Bible as being anything other than an assembly,
and a zero liquistic president for the invention of a new definition for the word 'church' which would now try and say it is 'invisible'/worldwide.

That's actually not even sane. If the primary definition can work perfectly well, like anywhere else we read words in the world, we use it.

And, no, if we personally can't make sense of the regular definition, it doesn't make sense for us to think we can just change the definition, entirely, to make an attempt at thinking wqe now understand it. That's elementary, crazy. Where else do people do something like that?

Where the Bible uses the word 'body', when it refers to the same kind of assembly that Jesus called, 'My church'?
Some make it mean, 'not a body' in any shape, form, or fashion, but a worldwide, scattered, invisible dispersion?

Bizarre.

Phil. 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you (by the Spirit that you received as a result of faith) will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; (1 Corinthians 4:7)

This is an unfortunate commentary added to the scripture.

(by the Spirit that you received as a result of faith) has never happened and is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

It is simply a lie.

But Faith is the result of the Spirit, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. Surely you dont believe Faith in salvation is the fruit of the flesh do you ?

 

[Salty]

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