John 10:15 and the Atonement

Becuase I am using the word theologically, not socially. We can certainly be gracious to each other. We can act in accordance with the grace shown to us. But we don't have grace per se, not in the theological sense. You are confusing words again.

No it's not. You need to learn what an attribute is. Faith is not an attribute. It is a strong motivator of behavior to be sure and SCripture talks about that much. It is not an attribute.

And the point of James 2 is to show that believing a set of facts is not saving faith. It is commitment of the whole person to Christ. Interesting you bring that up because the word in James 2 is the word pistis. The same word for faith or belief is used throughout the whole section, thus indicating that the issue is not the difference between belief vs. faith, but rather between true faith and false faith, for the purposes of salvation. There is no difference between faith and belief. There is a difference between true faith or saving faith and dead faith or useless faith.

 

A person can believe/understand facts about Jesus and know the cardinal truths of God’s Word, as a liberal, unsaved pastor might take into his mind. Not all persons savingly believe in Christ. There is a difference. To have faith in Jesus is to rely on Him for our only hope of everlasting life. We must trust in Him. [John 3:16] This takes all feelings about our good works and dashes them into powder.

Having our faces in the dust is a good posture to have when we realizes His greatness and awesome power and authority. And yet, on the other hand, we should trust in our sonship in Him, because we have received His gift of grace. Being adopted into His family is what it is all about, from our humble viewpoint, as we stand renewed in Christ Jesus. [Romans 8:15 & Galatians 4:5]

Only praise and glory and honor leaves our lips and hearts, as it ascends to His throne of holiness in Heaven.

 

How is it random? Just because it is grounded in God, does not make it RANDOM. As has been explained to you multiple times, we believe election is purposeful. If something is purposeful, it is not random, by definition.

 

Becuase I am using the word theologically, not socially. We can certainly be gracious to each other. We can act in accordance with the grace shown to us. But we don't have grace per se, not in the theological sense. You are confusing words again.</font>[/QUOTE]How can you separate "theologically from socially"? We are social beings discussing theology! We act in accordance with what is true of us, if we are gracious, then it must be true that we possess grace! You cannot get around that truth by separating what you cannot separate!

No it's not. You need to learn what an attribute is. Faith is not an attribute. It is a strong motivator of behavior to be sure and SCripture talks about that much. It is not an attribute.</font>[/QUOTE]Can you separate yourself from your faith? NO you cannot, therefore Faith, your individual and unique faith, is as much an attribute of you as is your love, mercy, honesty, thoughfulness, etc., are parts of you! You cannot separate yourself from your faith! You can however lose your faith by not exercising it!

And the point of James 2 is to show that believing a set of facts is not saving faith. It is commitment of the whole person to Christ. Interesting you bring that up because the word in James 2 is the word pistis. The same word for faith or belief is used throughout the whole section, thus indicating that the issue is not the difference between belief vs. faith, but rather between true faith and false faith, for the purposes of salvation. There is no difference between faith and belief. There is a difference between true faith or saving faith and dead faith or useless faith.</font>[/QUOTE]But do the demons have faith? Or do they simply believe in Jesus? We are required to have faith, the kind that you point out as being complete submission to the object of ones faith.

 

OH YES IT IS! When a criteria has been established that one must meet, only those meeting that criteria, a random selection, are acceptable. The rest are rejected! That is a process that we humans understand fully, for we employ it in virtually all aspects our individual and societal lives. The principle is simple; if the whatever does not meet the criteria, it is rejected. If it does meet the criteria it is selected or elected. The criteria had to be something that every human is capable of, and that is why God established "HUMAN FAITH IN DIVINE GOD" as HIS measurement for election of humans for salvation, You either get it and have it or you don't! Every human is capable of FAITH in God!

Is HE therefore not doing HIS OWN election on that basis that he established? The answer is YES HE IS! By establishing the criteria for election, God has opened the door for "whosoever believeth in Him..." A random selection process!

God established from before the foundation of the world that human faith in divine God is the criteria for election into salvation. That human faith is what gets an individual's name written into the Book of Life, or as one could call it, the "book of election", for only those whose names are found in that book are elected to eternal life. All who are not found in that book are cast into the second death, the death of spirit!

Therefore, election is strictly in accordance with what God established from before the foundation of the world, and IS AN ONGOING PROCESS!

That is why John 3:16 is accurately interpreted to include ALL the "whosoevers" from the whole of the physical world. No one who has faith in God is excluded! AND GOD ESTABLISHED IT BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!

 

No, if the criteria is in the one choosing OR in the one being chosen, it is not random at all, especially if the one choosing is God Himself, because NEVER does anything at random. Random is to be capricious. Capricous choosing is not purposeful, by definition. Calvinists do not teach that God elects at random. This is a straw man you all keep arguing. Straw man arguments are inherently FALSE.

However, Scripture only says that faith is the criterion of justification. It does not say that the ground of election is faith. Election and justification are NOT the same. This is a basic error in your understanding of both doctrine and Reformed theology.

"Election" is foreknowing and predestining. These occur in the mind of God from before the foundation of the world. There is not one Scripture that says that the ground of election is foreseen faith. Those whom He foreknows and predestines He also calls and those called are justified, and those justified are all glorified, in that order and without exception. John 6 teaches that ALL that are drawn come and all that come believe and all that believe are raised up on the last day, BECAUSE they are given and subsequently drawn by God. The text never ever says they are given and drawn because they believe.

"Whosoever will..." Of course you realize that in John 3:16, "whosoever" is just a Greek participle for "believing ones," God so loved the world (of Gentiles not just Jews) that He gave His only begotten Son, that the believing ones in Him may not perish but have eternal life." Absolutely true. All ones believing in Jesus have eternal life. That is all that verse teaches.

"Whosoever will..." Why then, do they believe? Are they more intellectual, afraid, more spiritual? If so, then you have both moved election and thus salvation from the category of mercy into the category of justice, and you have grounded election in an intrinisic quality in an individual, and that, by definition is partiality, e.g. favoritism, the very thing you seek to deny. You enter argument is thus self-defeating as an objection to the Reformed position.

You have God, who is pure actuality with no potentiality in Him, acting in a contingent manner. This is illogical, because nothing purely actual can have any measure of contingency in it. If anything the Arminian view, because it anchors election in man and not God and because of its teaching that election is purely general and never individual, is random, because that amounts to salvation by chance.

Yep, and you said it yourself to boot. Your view IS random. Ours is not.

 

No, if the criteria is in the one choosing OR in the one being chosen, it is not random at all, especially if the one choosing is God Himself, because NEVER does anything at random. Random is to be capricious. Capricous chosing is not purposeful, by definition. Calvinists do not teach that God elects at random. This is a straw man you all keep arguing. Straw man arguments are inherently FALSE.</font>[/QUOTE]What you missed is that God did not "randomly establish FAITH in Him as the criteria for HIS election of who to save. Establishing human FAITH in Him as the criteria was intensely purposeful, and only those with such personal FAITH in God are spared from the Lake of fire of Revelation 20:14,15.

Why are election and justification not the same? I suppose you may be right, Justification is what Jesus did for us by Atoning for our sins. That justification only enables us to have everlasting life if we meet the election criteria which is "FAITH in God". It is our faith that SANCTIFIES us.

Election does not however require that each and every human being that God saves, be foreknown. Election can also be the establishment of the Criteria for election which in God's case is human FAITH in HIM! For example: in a political election, the criteria for election was established long before the voting takes place. Only the candidate that meets the criteria is elected. Even in the 2000 Presidential election where it is reputed that Gore won the popular vote, due to "election criteria" Bush won the election. In 2004 Bush won by both election criteria. God established the election criteria for man's salvation before the foundation of the world. It is up to each individual man to meet that criteria in order to be elected.

That is dumb, why would Jesus say that only the "believing ones" need to believe in Him? He is saying that only those who meet the Father's established Election Criteria shall have everlasting life. Take the blinders off!

BUT I HAVE NOT SAID THAT, YOU HAVE! I have said that the playing field is level for all mankind because EACH and ALL of mankind have the capability of having FAITH in God...HE MADE US THAT WAY!

Turn OFF your CALVINIST FILTER for a moment and understand that I have made nothing of God! I have not placed God into any mold! I have not shaped God's creation in any way! God does not need my help! What I have said is that God, before the foundation of the world established human FAITH in HIM as the criteria by which HE ALONE JUDGES MAN! THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH IN HIM ARE NOT JUDGED! THOSE WHO LACK FAITH IN HIM ARE JUDGED AND CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Scripture says so! JOHN 3:16-18, and Revelation 20:14,15.

Yep, and you said it yourself to boot. Your view IS random. Ours is not.</font>[/QUOTE]BELIEVE IT OR NOT! God's ELECTION of man is RANDOM, and dependent upon man's faith in God! That is what scriptures reveal!

 

Where does Scripture say that faith is the criterion of ELECTION?

Then this begs the question of why some believe and others do not. Ultimately, they are elected for something intrinsic in them, and faith becomes a matter of merit, and thus God is playing favorites and showing partiality.

Scripture says we are justified by faith. It does not say that we are elected on the basis of foreseen faith. We are chosen, called, justified...We are justified AFTER we are chosen and as a natural consequence of being chosen (elected). We are PREDESTINED, not POSTDESTINED.

One is the result of the other, because they have different definitions. See below. If nothing else try to actually understand what Calvinists teach about these definitions, because, brother, when we read some of the things you say, we are all likely sitting here saying, "Wes, buddy, slow down, those are different ideas...related...but different."

Not exactly, but very close. Atonement is the ground of justification, Wes. Do you remember when the there was a gold standard for the dollar? Way back before Nixon, in theory, one could exchange a dollar for the equivalent of gold. That's what the atonement is to justification. Jesus atoned for the sins of the persons who are justified by faith. In other words, He "mined the gold" (e.g. paid the price). The atonement is the gold standard of justification. We are justified in space and time in our individual lives by faith. Our sins, however, were actually paid for by Jesus in the atonement. Justification is just a legal term for being declared righteous as a result of the atonement.

Here is a pretty good article that might help explain what I mean here:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/atone.htm (Lots of Scripture too).

and here:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/justification_verses.htm (Lots of Scripture too)

I think you might be blending some theological terms. They are related terms, but they are not synonymous terms.

Well, there is a faith that justifies and another that sanctifies. Here is a discussion re: justification and sanctification:

http://www.carm.org/questions/justification.htm

Glad you realize that election and justification are not the same, now.

Um, it has to, or God is not omniscient. Also, "foreknow" means to know relationally or intimately, to forelove. God foreloves those whom He predestines. Both Arminians and Calvinists agree with this, except for Open Theists. Be careful. That statement you made basically says that God does not forelove His own children. You might want to modify it.

Don't forget, the entire chain goes: foreknow, predestined, called, justified, glorified. It must mean ALL, not SOME, or you end up either in denying eternal security, denying justification by faith in the gospel (for all of us have to be called either generally or individually, on this Arminians and Calvinists also agree), or God is not omniscient or all three. Some are foreknown, some are predestined, some are called, of those, some are justified, of those some are glorified.

Look carefully at this from your own perspective that God loves everybody, since the word in Greek means to "forelove or intimately know." That denies that principle. Thus, you could say that All He foreknows, some He predestines...but then you are inserting different terms that are not there at all. In short, if "some" not "all" is meant, then you've got a problem supporting omniscience and / or God's love. One is heresy. The other a Calvinist might agree with, depending on what you mean by the way God loves people, but that's another thread. There is nothing in Romans 8:29 -30 that would indicate shifting "all" and "some."

Maybe, but Scripture says that God elects PEOPLE, not the means. God does ordain the means, that is true. However, election, salvifically, regards a people, not an idea, action, or "criterion" or else you end up with "foreknow" meaning something like, "God chose persons on the basis of foreseen faith," which no text supports.

Election is defined as "choosing," in Scripture. "To elect" is "to choose." Remember Eph. 1:4...The direct object of "chose" is "us," not "Christ" or "faith in Christ." To say otherwise is to add to the text. The text says exactly what it says.

The criterion for election is in God, not in man. That is why we talk about unconditional election. I personally prefer to use the term "election anchored in God." The anchor or ground or "stake driven in to the ground" is in God. In other words, the ground of election is a person, God, not man or anything in man. Justification, is a legal term, meaning "to declare righteous.' Justification IS conditional. There IS a criterion to meet, faith. Persons are not elected because they are justified. They are elected/given to Jesus by the Father and as a result they are called, drawn, come, believe, are justified, and raised up on the last day, without exception. This is John 6 in a nutshell.

You are arguing against the language of the text itself. This text is not an invitation to believe, it is a statement about something God did for the world of Jews and Gentiles in order that the believing ones would have eternal life. There is no Greek word for "whoever" or "whosoever" that infers and invitation. That is solely a modern construct of your own tradition. I am just telling you the literal reading of the text from Greek.

You have no exegetical basis for this statement.

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the last day.

Man lacks the moral ability to conform to any natural ability he has. That's the point.

Your way in no way levels the playing field, because people come from different backgrounds, temperaments, and all may have different abilities to understand, comprehend, and believe. In short, why do they believe? The only way to ensure there is a completely level playing field is to say that election is unconditional, not with respect to ANYTHING intrinsic in man, not even foreseen faith. Likewise, reprobation, the passing over of those that condemned is equally unconditional as preterition. It also has absolutely nothing to do with any foreseen unbelief/disbelief or wickedness in man. Justification, however, IS conditional, by faith. Condemnation is also conditional, because of sin.

Wes, first, your fellow Arminians here will not like to see this. Bob Ryan is saying that the Calvinist view is random, not the Arminian view.

Second, by saything this, you prove the truth of what I said, because you are saying God uses a random means to accomplish His will. God is, by definition, is pure actuality with no potentiality in Him, acting in a contingent manner. This is illogical. First, "contingecy" is "dependence." We depend on God to sustain our existence. We do not exist independent of His sustaining power. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Second, in a being of pure actuality without any contingency in Him, there can be no use of a random process. This would be a logical contradiction, because what is random and anchored outside of self is dependent. God is not illogical, He can not make rocks He can not lift. He can not sin. His acts, actions, motives, etc. are not ever contradictory to His nature.


quote:
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Turn OFF your CALVINIST FILTER for a moment
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Time out, Wes. You need to go take a look at a text on Theology Proper, that is, the Study of God. What I have said about logic, potentiality, and actuality is not Calvinism. It is the theology of God's nature that orthodox, evangelical Christianity shares. It forms the basis of our understanding of God, and it is derived directly from Scripture. I point your attention to The Living God, by Thomas C. Oden, who is, as a point of fact, an Arminian. There is no "Calvinist" filter on this point.

 

Where does Scripture say that faith is the criterion of ELECTION?</font>[/QUOTE]If the elect are the ones to be saved, then it is logical since it is through faith that any are saved, those with faith are then the elect.

There is nothing random about God establishing Faith as the criteria for human salvation! It was a most deliberate act of God! The results of it are random however!

Then this begs the question of why some believe and others do not. Ultimately, they are elected for something intrinsic in them, and faith becomes a matter of merit, and thus God is playing favorites and showing partiality.

Scripture says we are justified by faith. It does not say that we are elected on the basis of foreseen faith. We are chosen, called, justified...We are justified AFTER we are chosen and as a natural consequence of being chosen (elected). We are PREDESTINED, not POSTDESTINED.</font>[/QUOTE]1st para. That's your story and you're stickin' to it! But that ain't Christianity!

2nd para. Knowing the definition of JUSTIFY and SANCTIFY one must understand that man can do nothing to JUSTIFY his existence (not of works), let alone God's love for man. Justify is what another does for you, Sanctify is what you can do for yourself! Jesus' atonement justifies man by removing the penalty of sin from man thereby justifying man's faith in the promise of everlasting life! Man Sanctifies himself by having faith in God! Because having faith in God is the exception rather than the NORM, so one is "set apart" from the norm by having faith in God! In His GRACE, God saves those who have faith because they are justified by His Son, and Sanctified by their faith!

Predestined? That means that God established before the foundation of the world that ALL who have faith in Him and His son, at the time of their natural death, WILL BE saved. So, the predestiny is this, we are saved BY GOD through our faith because it is for reason of our faith that our names are written in the Lambs Book of Life.

Justification by Jesus Atonement for sin is not a gold standard, it is DEBT PAID IN FULL! A debt that I do not have to pay in order to have everlasting life, therefore I am justified long before I became sanctified through faith!

Well, there is a faith that justifies and another that sanctifies. Here is a discussion re: justification and sanctification:</font>[/QUOTE]Foolish thought! Man is capable of but one faith! Man has but one spirit, and that spirit has but one faith. That faith can have many OBJECTS OF FAITH, but there remains only one faith!

When you gonna start "right-thinkin" about God and Godly things?

Um, it has to, or God is not omniscient. Also, "foreknow" means to know relationally or intimately, to forelove. God foreloves those whom He predestines. Both Arminians and Calvinists agree with this, except for Open Theists. Be careful. That statement you made basically says that God does not forelove His own children. You might want to modify it.</font>[/QUOTE]NOPE! Election means that God sets the standard and the rules. We either measure up to God's standard for us or we lose our election! The rest is dogma!

That may be the chain you are bound by, but I'll not be so bound! If one can stop having faith in anything, and we all have stopped having faith in something we previously had faith in; then one can stop having faith in God, and it's easy to do. All that is needed is to turn on the Ignore God switch, He won't disturb you! But if someone or something attempts to steal you out of his hand....well that simply cannot happen. But you can take yourself out of God's hand by turning off to God! I've seen too many Pastors do that very thing, and I am currently working with one who has done that in an adjacent cubicle from mine. Pray for him!

Maybe, but Scripture says that God elects PEOPLE, not the means. God does ordain the means, that is true. However, election, salvifically, regards a people, not an idea, action, or "criterion" or else you end up with "foreknow" meaning something like, "God chose persons on the basis of foreseen faith," which no text supports.

Election is defined as "choosing," in Scripture. "To elect" is "to choose." Remember Eph. 1:4...The direct object of "chose" is "us," not "Christ" or "faith in Christ." To say otherwise is to add to the text. The text says exactly what it says.</font>[/QUOTE]Election implies that a process exists. There must be some means of, or measurement for, election as well as something to elect, else election becomes a random act! You have previously ruled out "randomness" with God so you cannot possibly mean what you just said. You must acknowledge a means or a measure by which God elects persons. That means is what God established before the foundation of the world. and it is human FAITH in God. The results may be as random as group from which election is made, but the measure or means remains constant.

Wrong, God established Human faith in God as the criterion, but God has no faith! So it is man that must measure up to God's established standard. Every man CAN! but not every man will!

In context your Literal reading does not make sense, especially in light of 3:17

You have no exegetical basis for this statement. </font>[/QUOTE]Why do you insist that Everything God did or does has a scripture that must be exegeted! Can't you understand that everything about God's created man is not contained in scripture? It is silly on your part to demand that God's word contain every detail of humanity when God gave man a brain to think with!

 

However, that does not mean that faith is the criterion for election. That is a false leap of logic. There is a relationship between who is elect, justification, and faith. However, to conclude that election is necessarily the criterion of ELECTION begs the question of alternatives. The fallacy of limited alternatives says that one's logic is incorrect is something is "concluded" without acknowledging the existence of other alternatives. The arbiter of that is Scripture. I asked, "Where does Scripture say that faith is the criterion of ELECTION? We agree JUSTIFICATION is based on faith. No problem. Let me rephrase the question, on that basis. Where does Scripture say we are elected because we are justified? (What I am looking for is an interaction with the text).

In Romans 8:30, justification is further down the chain of conditions in a particular order. We are talking about predestination/foreknowledge here. Look at the text...foreknow, predestine, call, justify, glorify. The Greek construction and syntax here is such that foreknowledge depends on, e.g. results from God Himself. Predestining from foreknowledge, calling from predestining, justifying from calling, and glorifying from justifying. Just as we are glorified because we are justified, we are justified because we are foreknown, predestined, and therefore called. We are not foreknown, predestined (elected), and called because we are justified. Since we are justified by faith, therefore, election is not conditioned on faith. JUSTIFICATION is conditioned on faith, but ELECTION itself is not.

No, it is the proper exegesis of the Romans 8:29 - 30. We are justified BECAUSE we are elected, et.al., not the reverse.

The object of predestination is not faith. It is "these," e.g. a person/persons. Wes, you need to deal with the exegesis of the text.

NO. They are sanctified because they are justified, as a natural and inevitable result of it. "Sin shall not be your master." Justification is by grace alone and faith alone. Sanctification is a cooperative effort and an entirely different doctrine.

No, that can not be, because that means chance, not God is saving. Nothing happens by chance in the universe, not even the salvation of individuals.

I'll be equally as blunt. When are you going to start offering Biblical exegesis for your theories?

So you reject eternal security? Again, no exegetical basis is presented here, Wes.

You already are. Your salvation is secure. That is the point Paul is trying to make.

Absolutely.

What is less random that God Himself? That's the Reformed position. The criterion is God alone and not anything about man. You seem to be saying that because I believe that the criterion is simply God alone and not an intrinsic quality, namely faith, foreseen or directed, in man, that is somehow necessarily random. How? Do you think we believe there is NO standard at all? If so, that is a straw man. We believe that there IS a standard and it is not a random standard, because it is God alone. The standard is HIMSELF, and in no way anything intrinsic in man.

Just because we don’t know why He chooses some to faith and not others is not reason enough to reject it. In the absence of relevant data, we, therefore, have no reason whatsoever to assume the worse, so there are no legitimate grounds for doubting the goodness of God here. Therefore, to doubt that God can choose us based solely on his good pleasure, is to doubt the goodness of God. The "foreseen faith" people are, in effect, saying that they cannot trust God in making this choice and prefer it to be left up to the fallen individual, as if he would make a better choice than God. (Hendryx). What is less random than God?

Does God hide information from us? YES.

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29: 29

Thus we conclude:

1. Election is grounded in God's moral character (i.e., goodness, compassion, empathy, integrity, non-duplicity, non-favoritism, justice, etc.)

2. God does have "causes and reasons" for His choices, though these are "internal" to God (i.e., not found in the creature). We know He is good and therefore can trust that He would make a better choice than we would.

3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed, we cannot try to figure them out but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

4. Salvation in terms of Election itself, (Remember election is not justification) is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of His choosing us. NONE of His decrees were done except justly and wisely".
(Hendryx)

No one can (is able) to come to Me unless the Father in heaven draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

Scripture clearly says man can NOT do this and will not do this apart from the Father drawing them. Why do you insist on saying man is able to do things when God says man can not do them?

I insist because I believe God's Word contains all that is needed in ALL matters of faith and practice. Do you deny that? I trust God's Word, and you have said TONS of things contrary to God's word, Wes. At least offer SOME exegesis, please. Throwing out a verse says you know what Scripture says but in no way says you know what it means.

No one can (is able) to come to Me unless the Father in heaven draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the last day.

How? God loved the world of sinners of all kinds, Gentiles as well as Jews, so much that He gave His only begotten Son, so that the believing ones would not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world of sinners composed of Gentiles and Jews to condemn the world, but that the world composed of all kinds of people might be saved.

There is no conflict here. My reading does not make sense, most likely because of your tradition that sees "whosoever" as an invitation.

Yes, which is precisely my point. Maybe I used a bad example. I have given another one below.

The debt has been paid in actuality, not as a potential. It is not a "paper" atonement, like exchanging pieces of paper for goods with paper having no absolute standard behind the pieces of paper.

Because Jesus paid it all, we are saved. However, you think He paid it all for all persons everywhere. You then say that it is not "really" paid until we believe. However, that leads you to double jeopardy for the unbeliever. What you are saying is inconsistent. The atonement can not be general and actual and be ineffective without this being double jeopardy for the unbeliever. There is no such thing as an actual ineffective atonement. Since you believe that the atonement is actual and general, that logically leads to universalism. Think it through.

Here is a better example of what we believe:

Bob pays Joe's power bill and Sandy's power bill; both bills totally and in full. Are their bills paid? YES. Now, if Joe or Sandy receives a bill for their power and / or has their electricity cut off, that is unjust for the power company to do that, isn't it. Why? Because the bill has been paid. "But Joe doesn't believe his bill was paid." Okay, but that still does not give the power company the right to turn off his power. Because Bob paid the bill, they can not turn of the power without being unjust, because that would be double jeopardy for Joe.

However, if Bob pays Sandy's bill but not Joe's, then the power company can turn off Joe's power and be justified in it.

Does this mean Sandy need not believe Bob has paid her bill? NO, because, we argue, Bob will see to it that Sandy learns her bill is paid and that she believes it, and, in fact, by paying that bill, Bob has also stated that he is under a personal obligation to himself and her to do this, and, since Bob is perfect, He will not fail to do this!

 

We do not agree that justification is based on faith! Human Justification is based on the work of God the Son in which he declared "it is finished". We are ONLY justified by Jesus! Human sanctification is based on Human Faith in God for it is FAITH that separates believer from unbeliever.

For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourselves, Salvation is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast! There is no criteria other than FAITH by which God saves man! Grace is not our savior! God is! Our FAITH is the sanctifier, Jesus is the Justifier, God is the Savior. That which separates (sanctifies) is human FAITH in God! THUS FAITH is the criterion for election by God! God does not save those who lack faith in HIM. If you think so, please provide the scripture that says so!

 

Still, Wes, no interaction with Scripture to show the validity of your position.

That depends on what you mean by justified by Jesus, Wes. The atonement pays for our sins, but it does not declare us righteous. It is the payment on which our justification is grounded.

Salvation has three related but distinct parts: justification, sanctification, and glorification. Once again, I point you to Romans 8:30. Sanctification is a result of justification and so is glorification. However, sanctification is NOT the grounds of God's choice.

Pardon me? Salvation by grace through faith is the gift of God, not salvation. You have successfully annhilated the exegesis of the text. "that" is antecedent to the entire content of the preceding clause in Greek, so that means exactly what it says, salvation BY GRACE through FAITH is the gift of God. Thus grace is a gift and faith is a gift, in other words they are part of the salvation given.

But you just said earlier that Jesus death saves man. Which is it, the atonement or faith?

http://www.frontlinemin.org/grace13.asp

Wes,

You seem to believe that Calvinists believe man is saved apart from faith. We do not. We believe all who are saved have faith in Christ. No man is saved apart from faith.

You are confusing election and justification. I have been over this with you previously. I thought you caught on. Now you are confusing justification with atonement, and I think you are misunderstanding sanctification too.


Justification is by faith:

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Gal. 2:16 "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."


Wes, you are confusing a whole lot of terminology in such a way that I think you think things like Calvinists believe a person that does not believe is saved/saveable. That is not true.

Justification is not atonement. Justification is a forensic, e.g. LEGAL term. Justify means "to declare righteous." The atonement is the reason for justification. However, no flesh is justified apart from faith in Christ. So, ELECTION is unconditional, as I have shown you already.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS ELECTION IS BASED ON FAITH. ELECTION HAPPENS IN GOD'S MIND FROM ETERNITY PAST, NOT IN THE HERE AND NOW. IN THE HERE AND NOW, ELECTION COMES TO PASS WHEN EACH PERSON IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, THE BASIS OF WHICH IS THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST AT THE CROSS. THIS IS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE DRAWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE WORK OF REGENERATATION. THE PERSON IS REGENERATED, UNDERSTANDS, AND BELIEVES AND IS JUSTIFIED, AND WILL BE RAISED ON THE LAST DAY, JUST LIKE JOHN 6 TEACHES, JUST LIKE ROMANS 8 TEACHES.


JUSTIFICATION is conditional on faith. Election will result in calling, which will result in faith in Christ, and then justification of the believer. Why? Because Jesus atoned for the sins of that person, and God is under obligation to ensure that every person for whom Jesus atoned sins believes and is justified, e.g. declared righteous in their own space and time.

In God's mind, yes, from His eternal perspective, we were justified by Christ when He paid for our sins. There is no disagreement from me there. However, in real time, we are justified, e.g. declared righteous by faith.

Again, you need to provide some sort of interaction with Scripture that shows how your position is valid. Otherwise , as best as I can tell, all you have is a theory with nothing to support it.

It is late, so I will simply quote from Brian Schwertley here:


How much faith?

Many people ask, “How much faith is needed for one to be justified by Christ?” The biblical answer is that one’s faith may indeed be quite weak and imperfect, yet one is still saved by Jesus Christ. One must keep in mind that it is Christ that saves and not one’s faith. One’s faith may be very feeble, yet the Christ it grasps is infinitely strong to save. “This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong; may be often and many ways assailed and weakened, but gets the victory; growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ; who is both the author and finisher of our faith.”48 Christians should not make the mistake of looking to their faith when they need to be looking to Jesus Christ. A person with a weak faith may lack assurance of salvation, but he is every bit as much saved as the apostle Paul or John Calvin or even John Wesley. . The faith of a sinner can never be perfect, but the sinless life of Christ and His sacrificial death it lays hold of is perfect. “A small and weak hand, if it be able to reach up the meat to the mouth, as well performs its duty for the nourishment of the body as one of greater strength, because it is not the strength of the hand but the goodness of the meat which nourishes the body.”

“The decree of justification is one thing; justification itself another—as the will to save and sanctify is one thing; salvation and sanctification itself another. The will or decree to justify certain persons is indeed eternal and precedes faith itself, but actual justification takes place in time and follows faith.”50 In no place in the entire New Testament does one find Christ and the apostles telling people to believe that they were already justified. Their message was: “if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9).

Second, when the apostle Paul lists what theologians refer to as the order of salvation in Romans 8:29-30, he places justification within the sphere of human history. Justification occurs after calling and before glorification. No one would dispute that the external and internal calling of the sinner occur in time.

Justification occurs after a person hears the gospel and is convinced by the Holy Spirit that it is true.

Third, the Bible says that faith or belief in Christ is necessary before a person is justified (Rom. 3:21-26, 28-30; Jn. 3:36). “f justification takes place by faith, it certainly does not precede faith in a temporal sense.”51 Furthermore, when Paul discusses faith in Christ and imputation in Romans chapter 4, it is clear that the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the sinner occurs only when a person believes (Rom. 4:5, 9, 11, 22, 23, 24).

Fourth, if God’s people were not justified in time but from eternity, all the passages which speak of a real deliverance from sin, death, wrath and condemnation in time would be meaningless and contradictory.

 

#1. In getting this wrong - Calvinists have to agree with the Calvinist future scenario that is predicated on the very salient points (flaws) in Calvinism stated here.

#2. God is no respecter of persons so He dies for ALL and offers to ALL salvation and supernaturally draws ALL and enables ALL to choose. Instead of arbitrarily selecting the FEW of Matt 7 to be enabled - and caring nothing about the rest.

Get it??

In Christ,

Bob

 

No, Bob, your scenario is not biblical and certainly not a true representation of what we believe.

The fact remains that in your scenario, God shows favoritism towards those born in highly gospel saturated areas such as the US, as opposed to Russia (there is just not the same opportunity) or those born with brighter minds to understand. HE shows favoritism to those who chose him. In the biblical scenario, God shows no favoritism towards any. He elects men based on nothing in them but rather on his own good pleasure.

 

Most seem think that Faith and Grace are Gifts of God, but that is a false notion. Anyone who understands the true essence of faith, and Grace, knows that they are attributes of the one possessing them. They are not transferable commodities, and therefore cannot be "given" by God. We are created in the image of God which means we have the capacity to have those attributes, but attributes are learned. We teach our children to be gracious, to be faithful, to be kind, etc. all of which are attributes. One cannot "give" a possessed attribute to another! It simply is not possible for me to lop off a chunk of my grace or my faith, and give it to you! I can however, behave toward you with grace, and I can express my faith to you, but you must have grace and you must have faith of your own. I simply cannot give you any of mine, nor can you give me any of yours. So with the understanding of what Grace and FAITH are, you should be able to understand that the GIFT that is spoken of in Ephesians 2:8,9 is "...are ye saved", and not of yourselves, salvation, the gift, is the gift of God. It is the "giving to the man who possesses faith, everlasting life, made possible by Jesus atonement for the penalty of sin which previously had prevented man from having everlasting life.

God REQUIRES faith from man, he does not give to man that which he himself does not have! GOD HAS NO FAITH TO GIVE!

ALL THAT MAN CAN GIVE IS FAITH! Man's works are not acceptable to God. FAITH ALONE my friend, FAITH ALONE.

And in Ephesians 2:8 and 9 the GIFT of God is SALVATION! The Condition of God in giving that gift is GRACE.
The Condition of man to whom the gift is given is FAITH!

Now I don't know about you, but it seems to me that smart people should be able to recognize these truths.

 

Hey SPINNER!

I have never said that JESUS DEATH is what saves man! LIVING GOD SAVES MAN! But, He only saves those men who have faith in HIM!

You don't read what I post anyway, so I am not going to repost!

 

Wes, once again, you present no interaction with Scripture that supports your view of what faith is and that it can not be given or transferred. You entire argument is circular, because you are arguing the premise and not supporting your view of faith with Scripture. Scripture, not our own theories about "the essence of faith and grace," tells us what faith is and is not like. I have showed you the exegesis of Eph. 2:8,9.

Where is yours?

If that was true, then there would not be extensive quoting of you in response, Wes.
I do read what you post, and I am struck by the remarkable lack of interaction with the text. You make these statements and proceed without a true appeal to Scripture beyond quoting a verse. You don't tell why the text supports your view. Perhaps there would be more understanding on my part if you would interact with Scripture and tell me why what you say is true exegetically.

I refer you again to the information I posted about the relationship between justification, the atonement, and faith. You are confusing the definitions and meanings of several terms.

That is an ad homineum.

I do not call you names, Wes. I expect the same from you.

 

Wes, once again, you present no interaction with Scripture that supports your view of what faith is and that it can not be given or transferred. You entire argument is circular, because you are arguing the premise and not supporting your view of faith with Scripture. Scripture, not our own theories about "the essence of faith and grace," tells us what faith is and is not like. I have showed you the exegesis of Eph. 2:8,9.

Where is yours?</font>[/QUOTE]IT IS WHILE GOD's grace is present for us, that we are saved through faith, and not by anything we do, Salvation, the free gift of God, is given to us, Not that we have earned it by our works, lest any man have something to boast about

Well sir, cut me a chunk off of your faith and send it to me. When It arrives, I will know that I am wrong! If you cannot do that, then you become obligated to believe as I do that faith is not a transferable commodity. You cannot even Give your faith to your children. You can teach them to believe, but you cannot give them one nanogram of your faith. If faith were transferable, it would be an item of "Legal" inheritance that is transfered by the court upon your death. I've never heard of it mentioned in a single solitary will as an item of inheritance. So, it cannot be be a transferable commodity. The same applies to GRACE!

I'm really disappointed that a scholar such as yourself cannot see the obvious truth!

You stop spinning my words, and I'll stop referring to you with ad hominems

 

Wes,

YOu will stop now referring to people with ad hominems. That is unacceptable here. Do not do it. If you object to how Gene is handling your words, then explain what you mean and clarify. Do not call names.

Moderator

 

Post removed for violation of posting rules. If you have issues with the moderating, the take it up via PM.

Your post was not rude towards me, it was simply out of place. I made my original statement clear and that will be the way things are handled.

[ December 15, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]