John 10:15 and the Atonement

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Larry

[ December 16, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I am not "spinning" your words. I am merely pointing out what you have already written multiple times. You do not believe that God justifies us. You said that we are justified by the atonement, not faith. However, you hold a logically contradictory position that faith is what we give to God for salvation is faith. What you are saying is that we pay for the gift through the "condition" of faith. You then articulate a THEORY WITH NO EXEGETICAL SUPPORT, not just once, but each and every time when asked for exegetical support for it. I have lost count now of the number of times you have failed to give any exegetical support for you theory of what belief and unbelief are. In fact, your entire view of unbelief not being a sin is, in point of fact, contradictory to the teaching of Scripture.

If you think I am "spinning" your words, then ad hom attacks, e.g. name calling is not an appropriate way to respond. Clarifying your words by choosing them more carefully would work better. You will ALWAYS get much further with me in the credibility department when you show some meaningful interaction with Scripture with regard to your theories. Until then, all you have done is tell us an opinion you have without interaction with Scripture to support it, and, for the record, listing out references or tossing out a verse or two here and there does little to enlighten us unless you can then tell us why that selection supports your position or at least point us to a reputable author that has exposited that Scripture for us to read. Do you know of any expositor of Scripture that supports your view of what faith is, or is this theory something you have developed independently?

Coming from somebody that does not think can understand that disobedience is sin but not understand that unbelief is also sin according to the New Testament because the Greek word for "unbelief" and "disobedience" is the exact same word (apitheia), you shouldn't be surprised I can not see the "truth" you see, since it clearly is not there. You should not be surprised I can not and will not give your theories credence when you, repeatedly, fail to interact with the Biblical revelation to show us how or why you think it fits your view.

 

Just what do you think I mean when I say that Jesus' Atonement justifies us, our faith in God Sanctifies us? I have made that declaration in various wording no less that 30 times on this C vs A forum! Maybe I'm not saying it in the form you are used to seeing it!

JESUS IS GOD THE SON! Part of the Triune Godhead of FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT! How much clearer can that be said?

Now STOP SPINNING MY POSTED WORDS!

 

The issue here isn't my interpretation of your words, it is your failure to answer questions with interaction with the Biblical text when asked to do so on multiple occasions and your rejection of efforts by myself and others do so. Instead, you present your rather absurd, and unbiblical, theories about the nature of faith, grace, and unbelief, and then, when asked to support your conclusions with Scripture you then ask if we honestly believe the Bible contains all the answers to such things.

Still waiting for that exegetical reply...

I have shared with you entire articles, which I can only presume you have either not read or rejected, since you have provided no response to them that tell you the difference between justification, sanctification, and atonement and show you how you are confusing their definitions and how they work.

God justifying us is a legal term meaning that God declares us righteous. Scripture itself says we are "justified by faith." I gave you a mountain of Scripture with those exact words.

You write, "Jesus' Atonement justifies us, our faith in God Sanctifies us"

That is incorrect. That is not God justifying us, that is an act of Jesus justifying us on the basis of an intrinsic condition of the heart. This is justification by works, because anything, even an attitude or condition of the heart that is intrinsic to an individual's own state apart from grace alone is a work. This is not legal justification, either. It is not the paying of a debt. Justification is the declaration of "innocent" by the Judge based on the transaction in the clerk of court's office made by Jesus. We are justified in space and time when that comes to pass for us as individuals now, some 2000 years after the event took place in human history, when the Holy Spirit comes to us, regenerates us, and we then believe. Justification, in the temporal sense, is that. Justification in the logical sense, in the mind of God DID happen for us at the cross. However, that is because He exists outside of space and time, and time is not one of His attributes. We, however, do exist at that level, thus we are, temporally, condemned and dead in our trespasses and sins right up until the moment when we are made alive in Christ when we believe. Thus we are, temporally, justified by grace through faith in Christ.

Atonement is the ground of justification, IT IS NOT JUSTIFICATION ITSELF. Not one writer in 2000 years of Christian exegesis will agree with you, Wes. When 2 milleniums of writing are available to contract your position on what the atonement is and does and what justification itself is and does and how it works is against you, you need to go back and consider that your theory is confused.

[ December 16, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]

 

God give grace to those who repent. [Ephesians 2:8 & Romans 5:1] Faith is the sinners response to the call of the Lord. Hypothetically, we could have tons of faith, but unless He saves us and takes us to Heaven it will not happen. The facts are that our faith insures our relationship with the Lord.

If God gave out faith to certain individuals, Hebrews 11:6 would be superfluous for Him to say to human beings, 'But without faith it is impossible to please Him. Also, notice in this instance God tells sinners to seek Him.

Justification is comes by faith; and sanctification is what He is doing in us as we continue to have faith in Him. We have our part to do in our maturity in the faith; we cannot just say in affect, "You do it all Lord." We have to watch our appetites and desire and make sure that He is our greatest desire in our lives. Doing this will keep you happy and in fellowship with Jesus.

 

When Jesus was with Nicodemus...,

Just how did Jesus answer Nicodemus' question, "How can a man be born..."? Did Jesus quote scripture? Did Jesus Exegete the Torah? NO! He explained in "modern terms", those used by the society of the time of Nicodemus' and Jesus', what is required!

You sir are demanding a quote from the bible for every question you ask, for those things that do not require a biblical answer. As a Sola Scriptura Expert, you desire to show your genius at the ancient languages, and therefore set some standard of measurement of truth that is not needed to understand the truth!

It is well known that every human being has the ability to have faith and truly every human has faith in something, maybe many somethings, maybe thousands of somethings, However many are lacking faith in the one who has the power to save them into everlasting life, and they will die in the Lake of fire because of THEIR LACK OF FAITH IN THE LORD, JESUS, the CHRIST!

YES, JESUS' ATONEMENT JUSTIFIES US, AND OUR FAITH SANCTIFIES US

I know the difference between Justification and Sanctification!

JESUS' ATONEMENT JUSTIFIES US Definition #4

OUR FAITH SANCTIFIES US, Definitions 1, 2, 4, and 5
For by grace YE ARE SAVED THROUGH FAITH. If being saved is not "setting apart", "consecrating", "Moral", and "productive of holiness", AND a "SPIRITUAL BLESSING", Then we have no common ground!

This shows your failure to understand Jesus' atonement for sin! The fact that Jesus did it ONCE, and declared from the cross, "IT IS FINISHED", and IN LIGHT OF both satan's demons, and man's acknowledgement of WHO and WHAT Jesus is,

YOU had better believe that HIS Atonment for sins does TRULY JUSTIFY US, for HE is GOD!

The issue here is this: You say that I said something that I did not say, and you do it by taking my words and TWISTING THEM to mean something that I do not mean to say! That is the ISSUE!

 

This shows your inability to understand your own view, because what you quoted is, in point of fact, a summary of own view of the atonement. You have said that God elects based on our faith. Since you equate justification and election, you believe that God elects AND justifies on the basis of an intrinsic condition of the heart, NOT on the work of Christ. I think you are correct if you speak of the atonement as the ground of justification, but it is NOT the basis of election or calling, and neither is faith. NO TEXT OF SCRIPTURE says that God elects on the basis of faith, foreseen or otherwise.

You do understand that Christ's work is once for all sin. However, since you do not believe that unbelief is a sin, contrary to Scripture, and you believe that the atonement is general in its extent, also contrary to Scripture, your view leads directly to universalism. If Jesus did pay for all our sins, including unbelief, then there is no reason for God not to save anybody, even disbelievers. If He does not save them, using your view of the atonement, this would be double jeopardy and unjust, also contrary to Scripture.

Apparently you know the English definitions, but you have NOT shown any meaninful interaction with the doctrinal concepts as taught in Scripture. Really, Wes, I'm STILL waiting on some kind of exposition of Scripture from you.

Whatever, Wes, I'm not going to sit here parsing words with you. You ALREADY hold an unbiblical view of the nature of faith and grace. You ALREADY hold a completely unbiblical understanding regarding unbelief. You ALREADY hold a somewhat unbiblical view of the atonement. You NOWHERE show any understanding of justification as taught in the past 2 milleniums of Christian theology and exegesis, though you have some elements correct, but are not clear. You CONSISTENTLY fail to exposit text to show how it supports any of your theories or contentions. That speaks for itself.

That speaks for itself, now doesn't it, Wes. You replied, previously, " I have never said that JESUS DEATH is what saves man! LIVING GOD SAVES MAN!

Yet right here, Wes, you write that the ATONEMENT is what justifies us. (Justification is one of the three doctrines that together and separate make up salvation).

You said God saves man, but then you say that Jesus death saves man. Which is it, Wes? Is it Jesus death or God's declaration that saves? Your language is inconsistent.

I agree, God DOES save man, and the ground of it in terms of the payment required is that Jesus paid for man's sins at the cross. I do not believe this is general. I believe the scope is limited only to Christians. In short God saves man BECAUSE OF the atonement, but the atonement is not THE MEANS OF justification, according to Scripture (Gal. 2:16)

John 6: The Father gives them to the Son and draws them to Him, they come, believe, and are raised on the last day. Why? Because Jesus pays for their sins and because Jesus said He would do the Father's will.

The definition in Christian theology that is used for "justification" is:

(Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, Zondervan, 1994, p. 1246.)

Why? On what basis can God do this?

Answer: the atoning work of Jesus on the cross for our sins. The ATONEMENT itself does NOT justify us in space and time. It DOES pay for all of our sins.

How do we know that justification takes place in space and time and not at the cross? Answer:

Paul in Romans 8: 29, 30 places justification AFTER calling. Calling takes place in our own personal space and time, not at Calvary, not in God's mind in eternity past. Justification is an act of God that makes what Jesus did at Calvary effective in man's personal life experience the moment that person receives Christ. ELECTION occurs in God's mind from eternity past. The ground of justification is the atonement. The condition that is met by man for receiving the declaration is faith.

The temporal order of justification is not at all disputed by either Arminians or Calvinists. However, on this the two soteriologies differ: Reformed theology teaches that God gives life and man believes and is then justified. Thus faith is one of the "all spiritual blessings" from God to us imparted via regeneration. Man believes and is justified. Paul is EXTREMELY clear about this in Gal. 2:16 when he writes:

. ESV

NASB

What could be more clear than that? The New Testament does not say we are justified by Christ's death itself. It says we are justified by faith in Christ. The definition of "by" is: through or through the medium of."

Arminianism teaches that God elects on the basis of foreseen faith and man believes and is justified. In NEITHER system does the atonement itself justify. It provides the basis by which the Judge is able to declare the sinner forgiven, reconciled to God, and righteous before God.

When were John Smith's sins paid? The Calvinist says when Jesus died for him, just as you say. Our sins are paid at the cross, we say. God declares us righteous (justifies us) when we believe. The Arminian says John Smith's sins are paid when that person believed, when God justifies him.

Do you understand what the two sides believe about that now? Calvinists believe sins are paid for at the cross. Arminians believe they are paid for at the moment of justification of the individual. BOTH, however, say that person is justified, e.g. declared righteousm when they believe; until that moment they remain under just condemnation for their sins. What is unclear about this? EVERY theological textbook in EVERY evangelical tradition shares this view. The quabble is over election, NOT justification, and the design of the atonement. BOTH systems understand faith, with regard to justification, to be the instrument by which justification comes to us. (Grudem, 730) One says it is provided by God via regeneration. The other holds that man has it and can thusly use it. That is the only difference.

In short, we are justified BECAUSE OF the work of Christ. We are justified BY MEANS OF faith in Christ. God is the one that justifies BECAUSE OF the work of Christ for us, and BY MEANS of faith in Christ. What is unclear about this? Both Arminian soteriology and Reformed soteriology share this in common without dispute.

 

Jesus' atonement for sin Justifies us, Our faith in Jesus Sanctifies us.

The Christ is God the Son who is Jesus of Nazareth! God the Son atoned for SIN, ALL SIN IN ALL TIMES FROM ADAM and EVE to the present and so long as God behaves toward man in GRACE (some call this "God tarrying"), ALL SIN IS ATONED, BY GOD! IMAGINE, one sacrifice for All sin that has ever been committed, with the result that no man is charged with sin from Adam and Eve to the last man standing! AND because we are JUSTIFIED as you say, by the work of The Christ, we do not face the penalty for sin which is death. No we do not die in sin, we do not die for sin, AND we need not die at all if we but have faith in God which sanctifies those who do from those who don't. And as scripture says, "we are saved through faith, not by what we do, but as a gift of God, Not of works lest anyone should boast about earning God's free gift of Salvation.

Yes sir, we are justified by the work of God the Son, Sanctified through faith, and saved by God! Those who lack faith in God, get cast into the lake of fire the second and final death.

 

Wes, why do you reject the word for word testimony of Scripture that says otherwise?

we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ (Gal 2:16). If faith sanctifies us, in that it causes God to ELECT or choose us for salvation, that makes faith a WORK. We are justified by means of faith, we are not justified BECAUSE OF faith and we are not elected BECAUSE OF FAITH. We are elected without respect to anything about us, including foreseen faith or wickedness, according to Ephesians 1, Romans 9, and Romans 8.

We are justfied BECAUSE OF the cross, we are justified BY MEANS OF faith. If that IS what you mean by your above statement I agree. However, I do not think that is not what your statement means, because you mean this to say that election is ON THE BASIS OF faith, when there is not one line of Scripture that says we are elected on the basis of faith. If you mean we are set apart by our faith and elected and justified because of it, then you are very wrong.

I ask for it, because you do not support your opinions with it unless I press you to do it. That is why I ask for it. I ask for it because you say "unbelief is not a sin," contrary to the language of Scripture itself. I ask for it, because otherwise all we are left with is experience. Doctrine is not formulated by an experienced based epistemology unless you are neo-orthodox or charistmatic. By the way, the bit from John 3 supports regeneration preceding faith. It did not help your position. Like I said, throwing out a list of Scripture does not show you can interact with it expositionally.

[ December 17, 2004, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]

 

That speaks for itself, now doesn't it, Wes. You replied, previously, " I have never said that JESUS DEATH is what saves man! LIVING GOD SAVES MAN!

Yet right here, Wes, you write that the ATONEMENT is what justifies us. (Justification is one of the three doctrines that together and separate make up salvation).

You said God saves man, but then you say that Jesus death saves man. Which is it, Wes? Is it Jesus death or God's declaration that saves? Your language is inconsistent.</font>[/QUOTE]Well since you don't listen to or accept what is said Gene, is it almost useless to continue with you, But one more time:

Jesus' atonement justifies us by removing the penalty that our sins brings to us. We are no longer charged with sin unto death.

Scriptures say we are saved through faith, and not by anything we do, but our salvation is a free gift of God.

God is the one who actually has the final judgement as to whether or not we have faith in Him. He saves those who do have faith in him because ALL who do are sanctified by their faith in God. God casts those who don't have faith in him into the lake of fire the second death. So, it is GOD who does the saving, but of only those who do the faithing! Faith is God's established criteria for HIS election of whom He will give salvation!

 

Southern,
I am sorry to see that you reject the words of Jesus when HE said, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." I am convinced that His words carry much more authority than those of Paul and the rest of the Apostles.

These verses that you take our of context and boldly hold up as "proof texts" that "support" Election, do not mean the same thing in their context. John 6 is a clear example, Jesus is addressing Jews in the Synagog at Capernaum, and as we see in other scripture, the JEWS rejected Jesus! You must acknowledge that the Jews have always been God's Elected, chosen, people. Each of the Apostles is a Jew by national and natural origin save for Paul who was born of Jews in Tarsus, which is modern day Turkey.

It remains Faith of the individual that Sanctifies the individual unto Salvation by God. And Southern,

FAITH in GOD has always been what Pleases God. ALL who come to have such FAITH are 'just' in God's eyes. I use ALL here to mean, "any out of ALL that exist or have existed or will exist", and FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! Granted, Abraham was spoken to directly by the Spirit of God, for no written WORD of GOD existed by which Abraham could "hear" the word. Perhaps, just perhaps, we are all spoken to directly by God. It is a sure thing however, that FAITH comes to us by hearing the word of God and we today have the word of God in our hands. One need not be predestined to have such FAITH, because the Word of God is the source of FAITH and all who hear the word of God must decide, as in "choose you this day whom you will serve". Like I said,"Faith is God's established criteria for HIS election of whom He will give salvation!"

 

For the last time. There is not a Calvinist that I have ever met that denies that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. I do not want to make this personal but please stop your misrepresentation and deal with our position and not one of your own made up straw men.

Your response to John 6:37 was to say that "All the Father gives Me" is a reference to the Jews. How can Jesus say that all of them will come to Him and many of the Jews didn't and don't come to Him?
Interesting... </font>[/QUOTE]The point is that "whosoever believeth..." does not mean whosoever believeth out of those predetermined according to some list. It quite simple removes any restrictions to who can have everlasting life through faith in Jesus who removed the penalty of sin from ALL mankind!

 

The point is that Calvinists believe that. They do not disagree. The limitation is those who are willing. Those who are not willing will not believe and will not be saved. That is the biblical teaching (which sometimes gets called Calvinism).

 

OK, if you will correct those who preachin' that only the elect are to be saved, and that only the elect are called, and that only those regenerated prior to hearing and believing are born again! If you'll do that, I'll believe what you say about your beliefs!

 

Wes,

You continue to show extreme confusion. LIsten to us. We know what we believe. The biblical truth of "whosoever will" does not in anyway contradict the biblical truth that only the elect will be saved. Both are equally the word of God and both are equally true.

Your continued misunderstanding is frustrating for those trying to carry on a conversation with you. This has been explained many times. There is no reason for you to continue as if you do not know this.

 

Larry, I am not confused in the least! Scriptures are quite clear, I understand them, and I am frustrated with those who claim authority to use them, but who do so wrongly.

What causes confusion is the convoluted, conjured up ideas of those who call themselves pastor, who insist on ignoring the simple truth of scripture. Jesus spoke of this condition as applying to the priesthood, and the religious leaders of his day. Same thing applies today.

 

Then you are knowingly misrepresenting what we believe???

Scriptures are clear, but you do not understand them, or you are playing the devil's advocate (very well, I might add since you sound so sincere). The Scriptures plainly teach that God elected individuals to salvation from before he foundation of the world (Eph 1; 2 Thess 2). You say that God elects people after they believe. You are in contradiction to Scripture, yet you claim authority. Your own words here condemn you.

What I have said is the simple truth of Scripture. You do not accept it for some reason. I have never been able to figure out why people believe like you do, after having been confronted with teh clear truth of Scripture. You cannot go on now and claim to have never been shown the truth. You will have to come up with some other reason why you don't accept it.