John 10:15 and the Atonement

I disagree with your assuption here if what you say is true, then they were not His own;
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
His own belong to Him, His sheep.
May God Bless You;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]"His own" in John 1 is clearly a reference to the Jewish people who rejected him. It has nothing to do with the elect. That is addressed down in vv. 12-13 where God gives birth out of his own will, not out of man's will.

 

He does not need faith, but he does give faith to men (Phil 1:28).

This is certainly true and is what Calvinism teaches. God does not force people to believe or to reject. THat is a comomonly stated objection that shows how much misunderstanding there is.

 

Hi Wes;

I disagree;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We acquire faith from God's word and God dictated the Bible to those scribes who wrote it down. God created faith to be given man from His word. It came from God through the hearing of God's word. All faith comes to man the same way it's called convincing you of the truth.

If that's true then how did all those Jews resist his will?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I disagree because it is not within God's character to do this. It is how ever His will that all men be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The reason God wants to save all men is because He loves us. Our love of Him is what He wants. He doesn't want you if you don't Love Him. Many don't that's why they're not saved.

Faith is the acceptance of what we are told and haven't seen. It's true we have to accept it as truth. It is not forced on us. It is we who first trust in Christ .
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Trust is not faith. Faith is the believing in what we here and trust is the acceptance of it
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

Hi Pastor Larry;

I'm sorry Pastor Larry I disagree with you again.
These men were His own,that makes them His sheep. All Jews are elected to Salvation but some were broken out of the tree for unbelief Romans 11:13-21. Salvation was never individual and still isn't. Show me one person chosen Individually for Salvation from scripture please?
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

REad the context Mike. Jesus was a Jew coming to Jews and the Jews rejected him.

And spiritual/eternal salvation is always individual. There is no such thing as corporate spiritual salvation.

Individuals chosen for salvation from Scripture? Are you kidding?? All of them. Paul was, Lydia, Peter, James, John, Mark, Luke, etc ... I could go on and on. Anyone saved is saved because of individual election. IT is impossible to be saved any other way.

 

ILUVLight,

I disagree;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We acquire faith from God's word and God dictated the Bible to those scribes who wrote it down. God created faith to be given man from His word. It came from God through the hearing of God's word. All faith comes to man the same way it's called convincing you of the truth.</font>[/QUOTE]Your disagreement indicates that you do not understand how God made man, or how man comes to faith in God. God HAS NO FAITH TO GIVE TO MAN! God gives man THE REASONS to have faith in God, reasons that are contained in His Word that he gave to man. Without His word we would not know God's laws, without knowing God's laws we do not know that what we do is sin, without ACKNOWLEDGING our sins, we do not CONFESS our Sins, Without confession of sin there is no Forgiveness for sin, with no forgiveness for sin etc., etc., etc.

It is in God's word that it is revealed that God Gave us His only begotten Son, who took our place in death for SIN! His Once for ALL sacrifice for the SINS of the WORLD atoned for ALL MAN'S SINS in ALL TIMES, thus MAN does not die for, or in Sin! Sin is not a factor since JESUS! Man's salvation is based upon MAN's FAITH ALONE! NO WORKS, JUST FAITH! ALL the works of SALVATION have been accomplished by Divine GOD, save for one, and that is that we believe. The work of the Father is that we believe! In Believing there is EVERLASTING LIFE! (another name for Salvation).

Scripture says that, "faith cometh by hearing (receiving and understanding) and Hearing comes from the Word of God. Man interacts with the word of God for one of two possible results: 1. disbelieve the word of God, and remain FAITHLESS. 2. Believe the word of God and become FAITHFULL. You cannot have it both ways. You either hear and believe or you hear and not believe. Faith is believing! What Does God need to believe? Nothing, HE KNOWS ALL THERE IS TO KNOW! Hence God has no faith to give to man!

If that's true then how did all those Jews resist his will?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.</font>[/QUOTE]EXACTLY the same way we resist. God is not the one who is putting up the fight! Man is! God does not force man, he is not exerting His will through force, but through PERSUASION! Persuasion is easy to resist! However, If God chose to exert his will Forcefully, no man, group of men, army of men, nation of men or world of men could resist God's forceful will. But, God is not forcing man in the least! Instead he expresses His will, as His DESIRE that All man would be saved through faith in Him.

I disagree because it is not within God's character to do this. It is how ever His will that all men be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The reason God wants to save all men is because He loves us. Our love of Him is what He wants. He doesn't want you if you don't Love Him. Many don't that's why they're not saved.</font>[/QUOTE]Then if you believe this why are you saying that you disagree with what I said above? You are simply contradicting yourself.

Faith is the acceptance of what we are told and haven't seen. It's true we have to accept it as truth. It is not forced on us. It is we who first trust in Christ .
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Trust is not faith. Faith is the believing in what we hear and trust is the acceptance of it
May God Bless you;
Mike [Smile] </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is the substance of things hoped for. God's word describes what life could be like, and we HOPE for those things that make life what it is supposed to be. Faith is also the EVIDENCE of things unseen. That is, that which is not visible in this realm, but which is promised for us provides the things unseen, and our faith is the evidence that we believe and accept the promises of those unseen things.

FAITH IS HUMAN ONLY! God has no FAITH and the other created species do not seem to have the ability to have faith in the manner that HUMANs are expected by God to have it!

Wes

 

"Faith, Hope and Love..."

All are gifts of God. If one has any faith at all, God gave it.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

God has no faith!
God hopes for nothing!

God gave man the ability to have faith, and
God Gave man much to hope for, but God does not Give that which he does not possess.

God does indeed Love, and he gave us the ability to Love too! He does not give us "his" Love, but he loves us and behaves toward us in accordance with His love.

 

Brother James,

You said,

'But without faith it is impossible to please Him,' {Hebrews 11:6} sure sounds like God wants a human response from sinners. If God was giving out faith and the decision was coming from Him, why would He not save all sinners?

Three verses in I Peter chapter one indicates that faith does not come from God but is the heart longing of someone who wants to know and serve the Lord, after being convicted of his wayward life. Especially, verse 21 where God speaking through the Apostle Peter says, ' . . . that your faith and hope might be in God.' Notice also 'That the trial of your faith . . . {not God's gift of faith} in verse seven and then in verse nine where the former fisherman said that you will 'receive the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls'.

We have a personal ownership of our faith [Habakkuk 2:4] just as He has absolute ownership of our body, soul, and spirit. [I Corinthians 3:16 & I Thessalonians 5:23]

Please, notice the Prophet Habakkuk did not say, " . . . the just shall live by His/God's faith."

Faith is the human conductor by which we can reach to God with our repentance and trust in His grace, when we are willing to give up our sinful life, of course, with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

I am sure that we both agree that His grace is offered to sinners as a free gift. All sinners are allowed to ' . . . take the water of life freely.' [Revelation 22:17g]

Brother Ray

 

"I did my part, now it is up to you to do your part"--man exercising his works/faith.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"--the origin of Faith is not of man in any way shape, form or fashion. The Word and The Holy Spirit take care of everything necessary to bring the lost sheep back to the fold.

Once one receives a gift from God, it is "theirs" forever. God does not take back His gifts nor His callings.

Every believer has his/her faith which God gave. Eph. 2:8-10.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Brother James,

It appears to me that you Calvinists often do what you claim Jesus does to the non-elect, you just pass over our verses and explanations without responding to the truth. For example, turn back to my post of December 1st, written at 11:06 p.m.

I was saying that faith is a sinner's human response to the calling of God to salvation, and I used the words of the Prophet Habakkuk 2:4. ' . . . the just shall live by his faith.' Just repeating what you might have learned early on, in no way confronts our contentions about His Word. Perhaps this is because you gentlemen have 'painted yourselves in a corner.'

Also, explain Hebrews 11:6, it might enlighten your souls.

Regards . . .

 

For the record:

Bro. James is not a Calvinist, hyper or otherwise. It is true that John Calvin became acquainted with the Doctrines of Grace in the 16th century. The Truth he found had already been in place and practiced for about 16 centuries--actually more like since the Garden of Eden--God's Grace has not changed with the covenants.

Then there was Jacob Arminius--he was contemporary with Calvin--once in Calvin's camp some say. Jacob modified the doctrines of grace to include man's work in God's plan of salvation.
All a poor sinner has to do is believe and God will take care of the rest.(skip to the paragraph that starts: sounds pretty good... paragraph and return)

Re: Heb. 11th, faith is still a gift of God. The scripture also speaks of "The Faith, once for all delivered to the saints", Jude 3. This refers to a "faith and practice" which is also a gift from God.

God gives everything good, why do we want to have "faith in our faith"? It is of none effect. In fact it does not exist.

Maybe this is why we give gifts to the "good" at this time of year. God does not give gifts to the good--only the reprobate--that is what the Grace of God is all about.

(This paragraph goes after the one about Arminius)Sounds pretty good--does it not? There is only one problem with that--man's depravity will not allow him to believe of man's own will. He knows not how without the intervention of God's Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement to come.

Man still thinks there is something good he can do of himself to get right with God. Man is woefully mistaken.

The truth of these doctrines will set you free brethren, forever.

Sorry to seem so convoluted, I just started a new heart medicine.
Selah,

Bro. James

 

Man's part is to "POSSESS" faith! Faith is not a work, it is a possession! One that comes to man by "HEARING" the Word of God and Believing what it says, and in whom it is said! Faith is a possession that each human must have to be saved into eternal life BY GOD!

FAITH is not a work, it IS NOT something YOU DO, it is an attribute, something that is true of the one POSSESSING IT!

 

It is all in the origin--


Amen, True Faith is a possession--from whence did it arrive is the question? It cannot be from man--he is totally depraved. When God gives the faith to the lost sheep, it belongs to them.

Let us take another step forward: God even shows us what to do with the faith He gives us. Yes, His Grace is Irresistable--His sheep hear His voice and they follow; another's voice they will not follow. The 10th of John is full of what we are discussing.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Hi Pastor Larry;

I did read the context and Yor right Jesus was a Jew. But you are over looking the fact that the Jews were God's chosen people. Not individually but as a nation chosen for Salvation because Salvation was of the Jews only at that time. They were and still are elect. How ever a few at the time of there rejection of Christ were broken out of the tree of Israel, so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

This is what you claim but you haven't proven it to be so. Romans 11:11 is proof that election is universal.
Jesus didn't come to save individuals he came to save the lost.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Everyone who doesn't know Christ is lost.
Bottom lined is, prove that election is a gurantee for Salvation. Then prove election is individual. I admit that Salvation is individual but election is not Salvation, and I think you have the two confused.
May God Bless You;
Mike

[ December 02, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: ILUVLIGHT ]

 

WRONG! God does not give that which He Himself does not possess! He made us with the ability to possess faith, but did not fill that ability with faith that he "gave us".

God gives us ALL the reasons (persuasions) with which we we decide within ourselves to believe or not believe unto FAITH! Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of things not seen! God does not HOPE, God SEES ALL there is. Man on the otherhand, being a created being made in the image, but not the likeness of God, Does not have ALL knowledge, and therefore must HOPE that the promises received and believed out of the Word of God will be fulfilled. Possessing Faith is the evidence that we believe what we cannot see! THAT is not given to us by God!

Sorry if that bursts your "totally depraved" theory, sir, but "that's the way it is"

God's grace is not "IRRESISTABLE" many millions of humans made in the image of God, resist his Grace every day of their lives! If that were not true, there would be NO UNBELIEVERS, there would be NONE who are not God's sheep, there would be NONE who are lost in need of Salvation!

Wake up and smell the coffee!

I am well aware of "the 10th of John", and I reject YOUR interpretation of it!

 

WRONG! God does not give that which He Himself does not possess! He made us with the ability to possess faith, but did not fill that ability with faith that he "gave us".

God gives us ALL the reasons (persuasions) with which we we decide within ourselves to believe or not believe unto FAITH! Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of things not seen! God does not HOPE, God SEES ALL there is. Man on the otherhand, being a created being made in the image, but not the likeness of God, Does not have ALL knowledge, and therefore must HOPE that the promises received and believed out of the Word of God will be fulfilled. Possessing Faith is the evidence that we believe what we cannot see! THAT is not given to us by God!

Sorry if that bursts your "totally depraved" theory, sir, but "that's the way it is"

God's grace is not "IRRESISTABLE" many millions of humans made in the image of God, resist his Grace every day of their lives! If that were not true, there would be NO UNBELIEVERS, there would be NONE who are not God's sheep, there would be NONE who are lost in need of Salvation!

Wake up and smell the coffee!

I am well aware of "the 10th of John", and I reject YOUR interpretation of it! </font>[/QUOTE]According to the Greek construction of Ephesians 2:8,9, the entire preceding clause "By grace you have been saved through faith," is the antecedent to "that," so, unless you are reading a different Greek than the rest of us are, faith is part of the gift of salvation.

Where is your exegetical evidence that saving faith is something we already possess and is not the gift of God? You seem to make lots of suppositions, but you have no exegesis to back them up. Let Scripture be the arbiter of whether or not we have saving faith in ourselves and whether or not we have the moral ability to exercise the faith we may have in order to believe in Christ.

Irresistible grace does NOT mean grace can not be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit overcomes the resistance offered in those who are called. It would be helpful if you would at least get the definition of the term correct.

Read John 6:44...what does "can not come" mean?
Read John 8:43...what does "can not hear" mean?

[ December 02, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]

 

Ray, EVERY quote I offered on Finney was from his OWN Systematic Theology, in context and word for word. I even gave you the page numbers and told you the edition in my original post.

I have quoted an objective source: FINNEY HIMSELF!

Finney rejected the substitutionary atonement. Finney rejected the sinfulness of man. Finney believed Jesus might have been able to sin Himself. Finney said that the only sins that Jesus death could have paid for were HIS OWN. Finney rejected the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Finney believed in salvation that is contingent on works to attain it and maintain it. These facts about him are not in dispute by even Arminians.

Read his own works, not his biographies, Ray!

Really? Institution of learning, date of graduation, please I would like to check on that. Also, I'd like the same information on your MMasters level and undergraduate degrees. If you have a Th.D at that level, you would not make so many basic errors.

 

Hi Wes;

I guess we will just have to agree we disagree because God's word says that believing in Christ is the work of God.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Man cannot come to God on his own. and it be all of God's doings. Sure man can have a faith of his own but it's not a faith in God.
His disciples asked Christ to increase there faith.
Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

This is what Jesus did;
Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

You might ask, did he increase there faith?. I say yes He did increase there faith by giving them more of His message.
Yet you claim that God cannot give you faith.
I know you are probably saying hey this guy is starting to sound like a Calvinist. All I can say is that while I disagree with much of Calvinism I never said they were completely wrong. I only argue what I know doesn't line up with scripture.

Ask your self this question What's the difference between trust and Faith? Is there a difference?
Then ask who choose who Here did we choose or did God choose. We are chosen by God before the foundation of the world;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
What were we chosen for. We were chosen for Salvation. by God first because we were created for righteousness not for slauter This I believe put the ball in our court. and all we had to do was trust in Christ. God gave us the faith we needed for the trust but we first had to trust in Him to receive Salvation.

This is true man does resist and if it was in God's Character to force man He certainly could but He doesn't because God wants our love and true love cannot be forced.

I beg your pardon Just where did I contradict my self. So far this conversation has been about faith and trust and the origins of faith You say it is mans I say it is given to man through the word. You deny this then tell me that faith is from man only this means man saves Him self or does something to make himself worthy. I say this is an impossible explanation of how we acquire faith.
Then you change subjects to resisting God and claim I'm contradicting myself.


May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Brother James,

First of all I think I picked up the idea that you are getting adjusted to your newly prescribed heart medicine. I know where you are coming from. I am on Zestara, Lopressor, and Rythmol the latter of which you might guess, is to keep the heart in proper cadence. I trust that you will be stabilized with your medication and will pray for you as the Spirit reminds me.

I see you as saying that the Five Points of Calvinism goes back sixteen centuries before Calvin himself came along with his 95 Thesis. Here, I believe you are right because Augustine defined these doctrines and John Calvin only systematized his views, which must have been right because they were passed down through the holy Roman Catholic Church. You see, from the time of the Apostolate to Augustine there was a more Biblical approach to the Scriptures. There is no question that Augustine was bright, but he did not have the tools to interpret Scripture because he could not even recite the Biblical Greek alphabet. Latin yes!

Sinners or saints do not work for their salvation. This is a firm plank in Biblical teaching/Arminianism. [Ephesians 2:9] ' . . . not of works lest any person should boast.'

This is what Scripture says in John 3:16;Acts 2:21; Acts 16:31; I John 5:13. Do you have any problem with believing in Jesus so that sins can be covered by His atonement and new life given to the penitent?

Yes, we are to contend for and defend the Christian faith that has been delivered to the saints. [Jude vs. 3]

Yes, even are trials and testing and temptations are useful in His personal plan for our lives. Sometimes it does not feel good or appear good while we are going through some things, but afterward it yields to a deeper love for Him and a development in our personal life of holiness before Him.

We do not have faith in our faith, Christians have faith in our Lord. This is all that really matters in our life time.

I don't think I understand your quote above. I believe that 'every perfect gift comes down to us from the Father of lights.'

God gives each sinner twenty-four hours in every day to either reject or to embrace Him. [John 3:16]

Yes, without the ministry of the Spirit of God no conviction or convincing can take place in the life of the lost.

Here is where we come into the picture. We are to witness and show the lost that their acts of goodness are but 'filthy rags' in His sight. The O.T. says, that even 'the plowing of the wicked is sin.' He views every sinner as being sin personified.

What doctrines?

You said,

You are articulate in what you have said, but we could take a little more detail as to what doctrines you believe are doctrines of grace. If they are the Five Points Of Calvinism, we then know what you are defending, but then Brother James is not a Calvinist as you pointed out in your first sentence of your quote.

Keep healthy! I try to take a half hour walk everyday and longer on a sunny day.

Ray