John 10:15 and the Atonement

[Ray Berrian]

ILUVLIGHT,

The Christian has a free will even after he or she is saved. The Lord, however, will not allow the true believer to continue in sinning as duly noted in I John 3:9. ' . . . does not practice sinning because His seed {the Holy Spirit} remains in him and he cannot practice sinning. The Greek word if I recall correctly is {poiea=practice}

As to I John 5:18 the Greek scholar Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest says,

'The one born of God does not keep on habitually sinning. "Keepeth" is (tereo), meaning to 'to take care of, to guard."

'Wicked one' is (poneros) meaning 'evil in active opposition to the good, pernicious.' The word refers to Satan who is not content to perish in his own corruption, but seeks to drag everyone else down with himself to his final doom.

'Toucheth' is (hapto) in the middle and passive voice, meaning, 'to grasp, to lay hold of.' As Smith says, "There is no comfort in the thought that we are in our own keeping; our security is not in our grip on Christ but His grip on us."

Wuest's translation goes like this.

'We know absolutely that everyone who has been born out of God and as a result is a regenerated individual, does not keep on habitually sinning. But He who was born out of God {meaning the sinner who became Christian--my added words} maintains a watchful guardianship over him, and the Pernicious One does not lay hold of him.' This verse is in agreement that the Lord is more than able to keep His people/sheep. [John 10:27-29]

The discipline of the Lord insures that the Christian will respond to the chastisement coming from God, bringing about a deeper depth of holiness of life in the saint. [Hebrews 12:5-11.

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

God has the power to control - but also has the power to KNOW the future WITHOUT controlling every atom. In other words - he can know the future without forcing it - hence there is room for "free will".

In Christ,

Bob

Humm... either atoms are controlled or not. If they are, the world is determined from scratch to end, and there is no freedom for these atoms to do anything else than what they were pre-determined to do (let us ignore the science which currently tells us that this is very unlikely). If they are not controlled, then atoms are free (as science currently tells us) and there is room for free will, if you agree with the premise that apart from our faith in God, the energy that moves our bodies works with the matter that constitutes our bodies.

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by corinne:
b]Absolute pre-determination of the world and everything included in it, to the smallest particle, negates, in my opinion, the sacrifice of Christ or at the very least reduces it to a meaningless and purely symbolic action. If we were saved when in the womb of God, before the beginning of our world, then why the need for Christ?

There was nothing symbolic in the death of Christ. That was one heretical road that many started down. Furthermore, we were not "saved when in the womb of God." A frequent mistake many make such as you just did is confusing election with salvation. There are not the same. You are not saved when God elected you. You will be saved because God elected. The two things (election and salvation) are entirely different. 2 Tim 2:10 shows this different when Paul says he endures all things for the sake of the elect so that they may be saved.
[/b]</font>[/QUOTE]I cannot be confusing election with salvation, because I do not think that you or I or anybody can say for sure that such or such person has been elected by God, or that such or such person is saved for sure. You or I might have a good idea of whether a person is of Christ or not (using the tools given to us in the Bible to recognize such person), it pertains to God to certify the election or the salvation, it is not our prerogative. We might be wrong, whereas God will be right all the time, since he is the one who decides, and not us.

I believe someone can be called to be an elect, and fail to concretize God's call. As He said, many will be called and few will be chosen (or elected). Salvation is another matter, if you have not been elected and you die without Christ, you will not be saved.

It is clear that election (whether concretized or not) and salvation go together, even though they are different things.

Corinne

 

[nwells]

Does God control every atom?

What if something is outside the control of God? What does that mean?

If something is outside the control of God that means that something exists that is more powerful than God and therefore God is not God but that thing which is outside His control is God.

I think my favorite illustration of God's sovereign control over everything and man's will is this:

John 6:35-37, 44 (NASB95)
"Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out...No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

All who go to Christ are saved - but no one comes unless the Father draws (as pulling water from a well, compel by force) them to Jesus.

God is in control of all things - there is nothing outside His control. He is a God who, "works all things after the counsel of His will" Ephesians 1:11b (NASB95)

And this:

Isaiah 46:9-11 (NASB95)
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it."

Nothing is outside His control - He controls the will of man - He is more free than we are. He is the first causation, we are secondary causations.

Because He lives,
Nathan

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Does He know the exact number of His elect? Yes. [I Peter 1:2]

But how in the world does he know this? What is one of them exercises his free will and changes his mind? Or what if one of the non-elect exercise their free will and change their mind? Can they do that? </font>[/QUOTE]It has been my point on many such forums, that God has given us free will so we could exercice it to make the most important choice of all: choose to return to Him through Christ.

We do not know who is elected or not, only God does know that. To pretend that we know (even if we feel we know) is arrogant. We can trust God to elect us, but we cannot force his hand.

Corinne

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ray berrian;

As to I John 5:18 the Greek scholar Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest says,

'The one born of God does not keep on habitually sinning. "Keepeth" is (tereo), meaning to 'to take care of, to guard."

I would say that Dr. Kenneth S Wuest is trying to convince us he no longer sins. If this is so, he is the first man to ever stop sinning in this life. Mans spirit may not sin unless it is will full sin. How ever the spirit controls the body so every sin is wilfull. I've had people tell me they haven't sinned since they were saved. I say Bull.
What is habitual except to say that one who sins is one who still sins. It doesn't matter what sin. God's Word says there is no man without sin and if we say we have no sin we make God a liar. Mr. Wuest is a liar, not God. If Mr. Wuest says he no longer sins and if he was forgiven for his sins then he would be perfect. I don't believe him nor would I pay much attention to him.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I can't put on selfrighteousness because I know I have none worth spit. I'm a sinner saved By the blood of Jesus Christ. It is the righteousness of Christ that covers my sin. I try not to sin but fail every time I think I may succeed. You might say well you must not be saved. Then how is it that I believe in Jesus Christ just as any Christian does and Love Him as much as any Christian. I have confessed Christ as Savior. I have been blessed by Him and saved by Him. Yet you tell me that this man is sinnless. Just isn't true.
Unlike Mr Wuest I have to be honest with my self. I've seen better Christians than myself sin.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

[nwells]

Mike:

"habitually sinning" is normally interpreted to mean living a life dominated by a sin or sin - living a life of sin

We cannot live a life dominated by sin anymore because we have been freed from it:

Romans 6:1-2 (NASB95)
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Corinne;

Humm... either atoms are controlled or not. If they are, the world is determined from scratch to end, and there is no freedom for these atoms to do anything else than what they were pre-determined to do (let us ignore the science which currently tells us that this is very unlikely). If they are not controlled, then atoms are free (as science currently tells us) and there is room for free will, if you agree with the premise that apart from our faith in God, the energy that moves our bodies works with the matter that constitutes our bodies.

Something of Course you may not have thought of. God made everything as they are. Atoms do not have Conscious thought in which to make any freewill decisions. Even still they are not controlled buy God for if they were man would have never been able to split one.
Man is as God created him there is nothing in scripture that would suggest anything different.

God's Sovereignty is benevolent not manipulative.
Why should God busy him self with so much to run. Don't you think He is capable of creating a world with one thought that after His creation was complete it would turn out to be exactly what he created it for?. If God created men to Love Him don't you think he would be reluctant to take that ability away. Man was created for righteousness not for destruction. If man is destroyed and it is man's fault for his own destruction. Then man must be responsible. How ever if man doesn't have the ability to know truth and he has no choice and it's God's fault.
There is no way around that fact.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Corinne;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Humm... either atoms are controlled or not. If they are, the world is determined from scratch to end, and there is no freedom for these atoms to do anything else than what they were pre-determined to do (let us ignore the science which currently tells us that this is very unlikely). If they are not controlled, then atoms are free (as science currently tells us) and there is room for free will, if you agree with the premise that apart from our faith in God, the energy that moves our bodies works with the matter that constitutes our bodies.

Something of Course you may not have thought of. God made everything as they are. Atoms do not have Conscious thought in which to make any freewill decisions. Even still they are not controlled buy God for if they were man would have never been able to split one.
Man is as God created him there is nothing in scripture that would suggest anything different.

God's Sovereignty is benevolent not manipulative.
Why should God busy him self with so much to run. Don't you think He is capable of creating a world with one thought that after His creation was complete it would turn out to be exactly what he created it for?. If God created men to Love Him don't you think he would be reluctant to take that ability away. Man was created for righteousness not for destruction. If man is destroyed and it is man's fault for his own destruction. Then man must be responsible. How ever if man doesn't have the ability to know truth and he has no choice and it's God's fault.
There is no way around that fact.
May God Bless You;
Mike

</font>[/QUOTE]What I think is that God wants to be loved for himself, he does not want people to love him because he has told people to love him.

If your wife told you she loved you only because God created her with a love for you, not because she loves you for yourself, would you be happy? Would you marriage mean as much? If you think you were both created to be married to each other and love each other, fine. But then what is the point and where is the beauty of love if your love and marriage were predetermined? What makes you valuable to your wife or husband should be that they elected you to be wife or husband, and not somebody else. In the same way our love for God has more value when we willingly give him that love and choose to surrender to him. God may elect us but some of us do not reply with the love he expects and fail to answer the call. The true elect are those who answer that call of their own free will and those who were put on earth as the tools of God's will.

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Corinne;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Humm... either atoms are controlled or not. If they are, the world is determined from scratch to end, and there is no freedom for these atoms to do anything else than what they were pre-determined to do (let us ignore the science which currently tells us that this is very unlikely). If they are not controlled, then atoms are free (as science currently tells us) and there is room for free will, if you agree with the premise that apart from our faith in God, the energy that moves our bodies works with the matter that constitutes our bodies.

Something of Course you may not have thought of. God made everything as they are. Atoms do not have Conscious thought in which to make any freewill decisions. Even still they are not controlled buy God for if they were man would have never been able to split one.
Man is as God created him there is nothing in scripture that would suggest anything different.

God's Sovereignty is benevolent not manipulative.
Why should God busy him self with so much to run. Don't you think He is capable of creating a world with one thought that after His creation was complete it would turn out to be exactly what he created it for?. If God created men to Love Him don't you think he would be reluctant to take that ability away. Man was created for righteousness not for destruction. If man is destroyed and it is man's fault for his own destruction. Then man must be responsible. How ever if man doesn't have the ability to know truth and he has no choice and it's God's fault.
There is no way around that fact.
May God Bless You;
Mike

</font>[/QUOTE]That we are able to split an atom can very well be a predetermined action wanted by God. I see no problem there.

Corinne

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Nwells;

Mike:

"habitually sinning" is normally interpreted to mean living a life dominated by a sin or sin - living a life of sin

Well you have a different definition of the word Habitual than I do. I define it as repeating the same thing over and over. Sin is sin to me. It's not the individual sin but the breaking of the Law. Everytime we sin we are habitually breaking the Law. It doesn't matter if it was 10 years ago that you last sinned or 10 minutes ago. Sin is habitual no matter how you look at it.

Why do you think Paul died daily to sin. Just as I do. Not to mention that every time you sin you're living in it.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi corinne;

That we are able to split an atom can very well be a predetermined action wanted by God. I see no problem there.

I'm sorry I think I have mis read one of your post. Please forgive me
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

ILUVLIGHT,

Dr. Kenneth Wuest does not think that he is sinless or that any Christian is sinless. I John 3:9 says that the Christian does not practice sinning as a way of life.

Please, take a translation and read I John 5:18 and you will see that it is not the Christian who keeps himself safe from the Devil, it is God who keeps us through His grace. You have clearly not seen the idea that the Apostle John is telling us as true believers. Check a commentary that is objective and you will see what the Lord wants us to understand. Study the word, 'toucheth' him not.

Yours in Him,
Ray

 

[Wes Outwest]

It is true that nothing can "pluck" the saved from the hand of God, but God does not hold on with an iron fist! Those who lose faith are allowed to slip through his fingers as one washes fruit in a sieve, the fruit stays while the dirt passes through the sieve.

Losing one's faith has NO external cause, it it entirely internal, and of the human spirit. God does not force you to have faith in Him, and you are as free to leave and you were free to enter. However, until you know the consequences of your action It might not be a wise move to leave. It would be better to keep your mind staid upon the Word of God, which Scriptures say is the source of faith! You cannot frequently Hear the word without developing faith!

 

[Ray Berrian]

The whole point of the Apostle John's writing I John 5:18 is to make us feel secure that once we are born again/born of the Spirit He is our inner Paraclete [John 14:16] and that Satan can never again touch us, or wrench us out of His loving and protective hand. Scholars say that John wrote John 10:27-29 in A.D. 32 and God did not have John the Apostle change their minds in I John 5:18 which is said to have been written in A.D. 90. There are 58 years between the writing of the Gospel of John and that of the three epistles of John. Same message!

 

[Pastor Larry]

It is true that nothing can "pluck" the saved from the hand of God, but God does not hold on with an iron fist! Those who lose faith are allowed to slip through his fingers as one washes fruit in a sieve, the fruit stays while the dirt passes through the sieve.

Can you not see the inherent contradiction in this? If nothing can take you from God's hand, then that includes losing your faith, or walking out. After all, "nothing" doesn't mean "something." I think this is indicative of many of hte problems in this area. People can see the plain words but they don't seem to register in the mind. They set their own minds up as the determiner.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Pastor Larry;

Can you not see the inherent contradiction in this? If nothing can take you from God's hand, then that includes losing your faith, or walking out. After all, "nothing" doesn't mean "something."

Because Paul said that he was convinced nothing could plucked you out of the Fathers hand. This is also what God was saying!. Can't you see this is Paul speaking of His own mind and not necessiarily of God's mind.
Christ said this after the telling of a parable.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

A one sentence comment about what this guys master did to his unforgiving servant. Didn't Christ say that the Father would do likewise? That is turn you over to the tormentors, if you do not forgive your brother.

Weren't the Jews branches broken out of the tree of Israel for unbelief? In Romans 11 Meaning they lost there posibilities for Salvation and they were elected, and Predestined for Salvation.

I do agree with this;;

After all, "nothing" doesn't mean "something."

I agree. No belief = No Salvation.

I think this is indicative of many of hte problems in this area. People can see the plain words but they don't seem to register in the mind. They set their own minds up as the determiner.

I agree again, except I would add that some allow others to determine it for them. With out ever even looking at it in full text.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

Because Paul said that he was convinced nothing could plucked you out of the Fathers hand.

Actually John said that. Although Paul said some very similar things.

Can't you see this is Paul speaking of His own mind and not necessiarily of God's mind.

This is an unbiblical distinction wholly without merit. The words of Paul in Scripture are the words of God. All Scripture is God breathed (2 Tim 3:16) by the God who cannot lie (Titus 1:2). It was written by men who were carried along by the Spirit rather than coming from their own minds (2 Peter 1:20-21). Your distinction is false.

A one sentence comment about what this guys master did to his unforgiving servant. Didn't Christ say that the Father would do likewise? That is turn you over to the tormentors, if you do not forgive your brother.

Yes, becuase those who do not forgive are showing that they have never experienced forgiveness in Christ.

Weren't the Jews branches broken out of the tree of Israel for unbelief? In Romans 11 Meaning they lost there posibilities for Salvation and they were elected, and Predestined for Salvation.

No. They were not elected to salvation. They were elect as a nation and the distinction of Romans 9-11 is that some of the elect nation were not elect individuals. THat is the meaning of Rom 9:6 where not all Israel is Israel. Some of the chosen nation were not elect to salvation.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Pastor Larry;

No. They were not elected to salvation. They were elect as a nation and the distinction of Romans 9-11 is that some of the elect nation were not elect individuals. THat is the meaning of Rom 9:6 where not all Israel is Israel. Some of the chosen nation were not elect to salvation.

I disagree with your assuption here if what you say is true, then they were not His own;
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
His own belong to Him, His sheep.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It is true that nothing can "pluck" the saved from the hand of God, but God does not hold on with an iron fist! Those who lose faith are allowed to slip through his fingers as one washes fruit in a sieve, the fruit stays while the dirt passes through the sieve.

Can you not see the inherent contradiction in this? If nothing can take you from God's hand, then that includes losing your faith, or walking out. After all, "nothing" doesn't mean "something." I think this is indicative of many of hte problems in this area. People can see the plain words but they don't seem to register in the mind. They set their own minds up as the determiner. </font>[/QUOTE]God has no faith to give to man and He truly does not "Control" man, though He is ALL POWERFUL, and man has no power to resist. If God exercised his powers over man, there would be NO NON-Believers, all mankind would be sinless and holy in the image of God.

Faith is a voluntary thing that humans alone possess! No one is forced to have faith, indeed, faith cannot be forced! No one is forced to retain faith in God either, it is strictly voluntary, and totally human. It is something that must be nourished in order to grow, and that nourishment comes from "feeding on the Word of God".