John 3:16-18

[SavedByGrace]

Watch "John 3:16 Dr James White - Does it say "Whoever?"" on YouTube

Bill Mounce a Reformed scholar

Does John 3:16 Say "Whoever"? - Mondays with… | Zondervan Academic

 

[Reformed1689]

Classic. What I submit to you is that such rampant misunderstanding as is often decried of the Calvinists is largely self-induced, because the goal posts move constantly and the theology is contortionist.
So, I misunderstood. Please restate your point to the best of your ability, I want to understand it.

I have stated over and over again world in John 3:16 is referring to God's love of the human race. But that does not somehow translate to every individual.

The whosoever is connected to those that believe, not every individual. This is clarified in the following verses and the rest of Scripture. The ones that do not (and will not) believe are already condemned. They are not the ones Christ came for. If they were going to believe (because they were drawn by the Father) Christ would have died for them as well. But they will not believe and they were never going to believe.

That is not inconsistent with the word world, nor is it making the word world mean anything different than the human race. But race does not equal individual.

That is why I asked @SavedByGrace if God saved the human race in the days of Noah. He allowed a few to be saved. The plan was always only for a few to be saved. The call was given to all but they were never going to believe. But God did save the human race then by only saving a few and He saves the whole human race now by only saving some, not all.

 

[Reformed1689]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You keep focusing on the word whosoever. But it is "whosoever BELIEVETH"

 

[George Antonios]

I have stated over and over again world in John 3:16 is referring to God's love of the human race. But that does not somehow translate to every individual.

The whosoever is connected to those that believe, not every individual. This is clarified in the following verses and the rest of Scripture. The ones that do not (and will not) believe are already condemned. They are not the ones Christ came for. If they were going to believe (because they were drawn by the Father) Christ would have died for them as well. But they will not believe and they were never going to believe.

That is not inconsistent with the word world, nor is it making the word world mean anything different than the human race. But race does not equal individual.

That is why I asked @SavedByGrace if God saved the human race in the days of Noah. He allowed a few to be saved. The plan was always only for a few to be saved. The call was given to all but they were never going to believe. But God did save the human race then by only saving a few and He saves the whole human race now by only saving some, not all.

You're expounding Calvinist theology. We understand that. My question relates to the text, not the system of theology you're advancing. How, within the confines of John 3, do you prove that whosoever is not referring to any individual in the world of mankind?

 

[Reformed1689]

You're expounding Calvinist theology. We understand that. My question relates to the text, not the system of theology you're advancing. How, within the confines of John 3, do you prove that whosoever is not referring to any individual in the world of mankind?

Because it is not just whosoever, it is whosoever believeth. It is qualified.

 

[George Antonios]

Because it is not just whosoever, it is whosoever believeth. It is qualified.

That's the answer to the question: "which individual gets saved, whosoever?"
Answer: "No, whosoever believeth, not just whosoever".

But that's not the question here. The question, how, from John 3 alone, do you derive the sense that whosoever is not any one from the world of mankind?

 

[Reformed1689]

That's the answer to the question: "which individual gets saved, whosoever?"
Answer: "No, whosoever believeth, not just whosoever".

But that's not the question here. The question, how, from John 3 alone, do you derive the sense that whosoever is not any one from the world of mankind?

I don't derive ANYTHING from John 3 alone. That is to mishandle the Word of God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Here is the problem with the Reformed understanding of the passage. If they equate the world to mean only the elect, and the whosoever also to the elect, then it is a problem for them as the Greek grammar here says that some of the world will not believe and be eternally lost.

Reformed supporters view the Bible through their theology and do not want to listen to what the Bible actually says

 

[Reformed1689]

Here is the problem with the Reformed understanding of the passage. If they equate the world to mean only the elect, and the whosoever also to the elect, then it is a problem for them as the Greek grammar here says that some of the world will not believe and be eternally lost.

Reformed supporters view the Bible through their theology and do not want to listen to what the Bible actually says

Again, you are misrepresenting the position even after you have been told this numerous times. Either now you are being willfully ignorant or purposefully deceitful.

 

[George Antonios]

I don't derive ANYTHING from John 3 alone. That is to mishandle the Word of God.

Although noble on the surface (and what believer would not agree with that statement?), it is in fact a confession that the interpretation limiting the sense of world and whosoever to only the pool of the elect, as Calvinistically understood, is not possible in John 3 - which was the OP's point to begin with.

 

[SavedByGrace]

That's the answer to the question: "which individual gets saved, whosoever?"
Answer: "No, whosoever believeth, not just whosoever".

But that's not the question here. The question, how, from John 3 alone, do you derive the sense that whosoever is not any one from the world of mankind?

Reformed1689 clearly doesn't understand the passage because he refuses to allow the Bible to tell him what the Lord says. Instead typical of their reasoning they keep on pushing their theories and sadly accept them even though they are against the Holy Bible

 

[Reformed1689]

Although noble on the surface (and what believer would not agree with that statement?), it is in fact a confession that the interpretation limiting the sense of world and whosoever to only the pool of the elect, as Calvinistically understood, is not possible in John 3 - which was the OP's point to begin with.

Except, AGAIN, that is not what I or any Calvinist I know is saying. You keep lying about our position. I am saying that John 3:16 actually does not deal with the topic of who is covered by the cross directly. World means human race. Race does not mean individual. You keep twisting it. Either learn what we actually believe or you are a liar if you keep peddling the same false information after being correct. That is sin and you should repent.

 

[Reformed1689]

Reformed1689 clearly doesn't understand the passage because he refuses to allow the Bible to tell him what the Lord says. Instead typical of their reasoning they keep on pushing their theories and sadly accept them even though they are against the Holy Bible

Bearing false witness. Repent.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Although noble on the surface (and what believer would not agree with that statement?), it is in fact a confession that the interpretation limiting the sense of world and whosoever to only the pool of the elect, as Calvinistically understood, is not possible in John 3 - which was the OP's point to begin with.

Sadly they are deceived by their warped theology, so much so that they can't see the truth of what the Bible Teaches

 

[Reformed1689]

Sadly they are deceived by their warped theology, so much so that they can't see the truth of what the Bible Teaches

Sadly you keep lying about our position.

 

[George Antonios]

Except, AGAIN, that is not what I or any Calvinist I know is saying. You keep lying about our position. I am saying that John 3:16 actually does not deal with the topic of who is covered by the cross directly. World means human race. Race does not mean individual. You keep twisting it. Either learn what we actually believe or you are a liar if you keep peddling the same false information after being correct. That is sin and you should repent.

I think our points have been sufficiently made to any reader.

 

[Reformed1689]

I think our points have been sufficiently made to any reader.

Your points are based on strawman arguments so while they may be sufficiently made, they are false.

 

[Dave G]

Then your Bible is grammatically wrong. Youngs translation is a literal one which is exactly what the Greek says

My Bible is a late 18th century edition of an original translation that was begun in roughly 1604 and finished in 1611 in England.

Grammatically ( using the language of its day ), I can find very little, if anything wrong with it when I compare it to the Greek of the New Testament or with the Hebrew of the Old Testament.
Also, the Greek that I trust is the "Received Text" or "Textus Receptus":

John 3 Interlinear Bible
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh3.pdf

If you wish to review the usage of the words being translated, then I invite you to do so.

Lastly,
I don't use Young's Literal ( which was translated using a collated Greek text of some 100 manuscripts and other bit and pieces, sometimes referred to as the Majority Text of Hodges and Farstad, I believe ), although I find it to be helpful on occasion.

If people wish to ridicule me for that, then that is their prerogative.
I'll wish them well and God's blessings anyway.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I think our points have been sufficiently made to any reader.

Indeed but you can't make people see when they are willfully blind. Jesus had the same problem with the Jews of His time

 

[Reformed1689]

Indeed but you can't make people see when they are willfully blind. Jesus had the same problem with the Jews of His time

The points are based on lies. Strawman arguments.