John 3:16

[Saved-By-Grace]

I am not sure what you mean by "equal." But I know that Christ's Sacrifice of Himself on the cross benefits all people of all times.

Okay. If you want to know what a "reformed" person believes you will have to ask one. As I have stated over and over again on this forum, I am not "Reformed." I am an Historic, Particular Baptist. Nothing "Reformed" about me or what I believe.

I believe the Atonement (not the Death - different subject) is sufficient for all persons at all times. But it is efficient ONLY for Believers.

If you disagree with that, do you believe the Atonement is efficient for unbelievers, and there will, therefore, be unbelievers in Heaven?

Yes, the Gospel Call is universal.

Exactly. Thanks again for making my point. The EFCs believe, for the most part, what I believe and what Particular Baptists have believed since their beginnings.

equally for the entire human race. In that ANY sinner can come to Jesus to be saved, because His blood was shed for ALL without exception, and not only for the "elect". Repentance and belief is a pre-requirement for all sinners to have their sins washed away. Not that there is no hope for the so-called "non-elect".

 

[TCassidy]

equally for the entire human race.

Equally salvifically? Then no. Not all people will be saved. Only believers.

In that ANY sinner can come to Jesus to be saved,

Yes, the Gospel call is universal.

because His blood was shed for ALL without exception

Yes, His violent, sacrificial death, of which the shed blood is the proof required by God, was for the benefit of all mankind, without exception.

and not only for the "elect".

If it is not only for believers (IE the elect), will there be unbelievers in heaven?

Repentance and belief is a pre-requirement for all sinners to have their sins washed away.

Yes, faith and repentance are required for salvation, but faith and repentance do not wash away sins. Only the blood Atonement can do that.

Not that there is no hope for the so-called "non-elect".

What is the hope of unbelievers who die in their sins? Is there a second chance after death?

 

[HankD]

What is the hope of unbelievers who die in their sins? Is there a second chance after death?

What if they never heard the gospel?
I once heard a preacher say "Second chance? what if they never even had a first chance?".

My own personal belief for those who never heard - I don't know.

But

Genesis 18:25 ...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

HankD

 

[agedman]

What if they never heard the gospel?
I once heard a preacher say "Second chance? what if they never even had a first chance?".

My own personal belief for those who never heard - I don't know.

But

Genesis 18:25 ...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

HankD

This (in a small way) is one of the reasons I moved away from the typical Baptist approach to soteriology that embraces people having some innate freedom to accept and reject and even to hear the Gospel.

Understanding that God purposes each saved, and that such is a divine appointment, provides a certain drive to continue spreading the "Good News."

At the same time, it also makes such divine appointments inevitable in the sense that all that God has appointed will hear and will be saved. None left out.

Remember the eunuch and Phillip, the prison guard in Philippi, the Macedonian? Each had that divine appointment. Nothing left to chance.

 

[MB]

you cannot be serious? Surely you must believe that we Christians can learn from each other? I know there are some here who think they have all of the truth! But, there are things that the Holy Spirit will reveal to you, and not to me, etc, etc, which is why I believe good commentaries, study Bibles, Hebrew and Greek helps, etc, are very important, for a deeper understanding of the Bible, which is lost in many places in the English language.

When I need to know or understand scripture I pray about it and wait for it. It's true we do not always get the answer we want or expect or even when we want it. However the Lord may be waiting for us to mature enough to understand it. There are many reasons God has for not revealing everything, No one has all knowing but God. I know there are many who claim to have the answer and do not.

The Berians were aware of the teachings of men because they checked everything Paul said with scripture.

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

They didn't rely on the teachings of men for the same reasons that I don't either.
MB

 

[TCassidy]

What if they never heard the gospel?
I once heard a preacher say "Second chance? what if they never even had a first chance?".

In my home church, where I was saved, baptized, and married, there was an old man who had been a missionary in South Africa for most of his life (he was a 3rd generation missionary, born on the field in South Africa). He told a story that went a long way to answer your question, at least in my mind.

He and three of his fellow missionaries were traveling out into the remote savanna reaching new villages with the Gospel.

On their way their vehicle broke an axle and could not go any farther. They split up, two and two. Two went back to the nearest village which had a telephone to call for a tow, and two went on to the village they were heading for.

When they arrived at the village they walked into it along the main road but there were no people. Then they noticed that all the people were in their huts, hiding. None of them had ever seen a white man before (this was in the 1920s).

But coming down the middle of the road toward them was one old man. He approached the two missionaries and asked them "Are you the men who have come to tell us about God?"

Needless to say the missionaries were astonished and asked "How did you know?

The old man said, "When I was a boy tending my father's cattle I would lie on the side of the hill and look at the stars. And as I looked I realize someone much greater than I had made all that I could see. And that I owed this One my thanks and obedience. So I prayed that He would send someone to tell us about Himself. That was 70 years ago. And now, here you are."

Needless to say, the missionaries prayed, and preached, and many of the village people were saved. On their second trip to the village a church was established with the old man, who was also the village chief, as pastor.

God answers prayer. And those who have never heard are not missed nor ignored by God. He will make sure all who want and need to hear will hear.

What happened with the car with the broken axle is a whole other story.

 

[MB]

You have to understand that I'm not saying that every man teaches wrongly. I'm just saying if you really want the truth with out doubt. Ask God for it. Trust in Him for the answer. Ask and you will receive.
MB

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You have to understand that I'm not saying that every man teaches wrongly. I'm just saying if you really want the truth with out doubt. Ask God for it. Trust in Him for the answer. Ask and you will receive.
MB

Do you go to Church? The Pastor who preaches is expounding the Bible using his own thoughts, which might benefit some

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You have to understand that I'm not saying that every man teaches wrongly. I'm just saying if you really want the truth with out doubt. Ask God for it. Trust in Him for the answer. Ask and you will receive.
MB

Take for example 1 John 5:7, as found in the King James, or New King James, and then compare with modern versions. How would you know by simply praying, which is right?

 

[TCassidy]

They didn't rely on the teachings of men for the same reasons that neither do I.

All through the New Testament God used men to instruct others regarding the Truth of God.

Just about every book of the New Testament is named for one of those men with the gift of teaching or are the writings of those gifted men. Matthew. Mark. Luke. John. Paul. Timothy. Titus. Philemon. James. Peter.

God says that He gives these men to His church as a gift, and they are to be listened to.

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors/teachers;
12 for the maturing of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ.

Philippines 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as you have us for an example.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore I beg you, be followers of me.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

To reject the gift of God to His church is to reject the God of the gift.

 

[MB]

Do you go to Church? The Pastor who preaches is expounding the Bible using his own thoughts, which might benefit some

I was raised by Christian parents and we never missed a Sunday, or Wednesday prayer meeting. Still I do the same and I'm in my 70's. I have always checked everything with scripture. The final Authority. I check every verse quoted and I read the whole chapter the verse is in to be sure I have the whole true meaning.

Many use passages to support their doctrines although to see if it really does support their doctrines you have to check to make sure it's not taken out of context before you believe it
MB.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I was raised by Christian parents and we never missed a Sunday, or Wednesday prayer meeting. Still I do the same and I'm in my 70's. I have always checked everything with scripture. The final Authority. I check every verse quoted and I read the whole chapter the verse is in to be sure I have the whole true meaning.

Many use passages to support their doctrines although to see if it really does support their doctrines you have to check to make sure it's not taken out of context before you believe it
MB.

That is good to hear. But you must admit that with many Bible versions available, and newer textual evidence which might be more reliable for the Bible's text, one cannot simply hold that the version that they are using is the only correct one? I was a King James/New King James person for most of my life, but through deeper study, especially with the Greek New Testaments, I discovered that there are important parts that are "corrected" in modern versions. One important example is the use of "God" instead of "Son" in John 1:18, which is a very clear testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, and His equality with the Father. The reading "God" has the older and wider support.

 

[TCassidy]

I was raised by Christian parents and we never missed a Sunday, or Wednesday prayer meeting. Still I do the same and I'm in my 70's. I have always checked everything with scripture. The final Authority. I check every verse quoted and I read the whole chapter the verse is in to be sure I have the whole true meaning.

Many use passages to support their doctrines although to see if it really does support their doctrines you have to check to make sure it's not taken out of context before you believe it
MB.

So, if all this applies to preaching you hear or teaching in Sunday School, why can't it also apply to reading good books by gifted Christians?

I am presently re-reading "The Greatness of the Kingdom" by Dr. Alva J. McClain. The book is open in my lap and my bible is open on the arm of my chair. Every verse referenced in the book is read, in context, from my open bible.

How is that a terrible sin? You said in your post #118:

There is no reason to consider the mistakes of others such as your self.

How does my study using the bible to check every verse cited make my methodology "mistakes" as you claim?

 

[agedman]

I was raised by Christian parents and we never missed a Sunday, or Wednesday prayer meeting. Still I do the same and I'm in my 70's. I have always checked everything with scripture. The final Authority. I check every verse quoted and I read the whole chapter the verse is in to be sure I have the whole true meaning.

Many use passages to support their doctrines although to see if it really does support their doctrines you have to check to make sure it's not taken out of context before you believe it
MB.

Perhaps, some respond not out of disagreement in the sifting everything through the Scriptures, but the lack of using other tools to aid in the level of comprehension.

When the Lord spoke to those around Him, he used stories and illustrations. These tools were to aid in the comprehension. He did not use the Scriptures, alone.

The same with the Apostles and others who speak of the Scriptures. Nothing wrong with tools and using tools of the trade.

Christ even quoted from tools not found in the Cannon of Scriptures.

It is primary importance to sift everything through the Scriptures.

That endorsed by the Scriptures hold as precious trashing the rest. To this you seem to do well.

However, do not discourage the use of resources and other tools.

After all, just the ability to read the Scriptures engages tools of learning from long ago.

 

[MB]

Take for example 1 John 5:7, as found in the King James, or New King James, and then compare with modern versions. How would you know by simply praying, which is right?

Well you just mentioned two different versions one is taken from the same Greek text as the Jehovah's witnesses corrupt version and the other is taken from the Textus receptus. Which do you believe? they are both called Bible but they aren't the same. For my self I use the KJV for verification. It's been around for over 400 years and has proven it self as reliable. We also need to know where our bibles come from. I use other Bibles to but the KJV I use for final Authority. There is enough truth in other versions to lead a person to Christ. However nothing is perfect not even the KJV. we must always be on guard.
Praying for an answer isn't like making a phone call. God doesn't answer me in an audible voice. Instead most of the time He leads me to the explanation in scripture. Yet sometimes in meditation, Sometimes it's like a thought entering my head. I always check to make sure the thought is true. Thoughts can come from different places
MB

 

[agedman]

Well you just mentioned two different versions one is taken from the same Greek text as the Jehovah's witnesses corrupt version and the other is taken from the Textus receptus. Which do you believe? they are both called Bible but they aren't the same. For my self I use the KJV for verification. It's been around for over 400 years and has proven it self as reliable. We also need to know where our bibles come from. I use other Bibles to but the KJV I use for final Authority. There is enough truth in other versions to lead a person to Christ. However nothing is perfect not even the KJV. we must always be on guard.
Praying for an answer isn't like making a phone call. God doesn't answer me in an audible voice. Instead most of the time He leads me to the explanation in scripture. Yet sometimes in meditation, Sometimes it's like a thought entering my head. I always check to make sure the thought is true. Thoughts can come from different places
MB

A great misunderstanding is in this manner of readability when it comes to Bible versions.

Frankly, in some areas, I wish that some versions were never published, because it is redundant or the readability is set so low that the meaning is limited or expanded.

But all that is another topic for a different forum.

What is important is that one actually have that "final authority."

I moved from the KJV to the NASB some decades ago. But still hold both as the final authority.

And you are correct in this matter of listening. Too often, (imo) one chases after the easy explanation, or what conforms to their world view. The stuff of life so distracts that one would be considered quite abnormal to be found sitting for days on a river bank waiting for an answer from God.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4 PM Pacific.

 

[MB]

So, if all this applies to preaching you hear or teaching in Sunday School, why can't it also apply to reading good books by gifted Christians?

There is nothing wrong with reading. It's what we mistakenly understand as truth. Anybody can be deceived by being careless and not reading scripture in context. This is why the Bereans checked everything Paul said. It's not that Paul ever misled anyone but based simply on the reason of Paul being human. Humans make mistakes God never does. I remember once having a problem with a statement a preacher said. He claimed that the Bible says "spare the rod and spoil the child" When it does not. I asked Him to show it to me in scripture and he could not. We all make mistakes this is why it's so important to check with the Bible.

I am presently re-reading "The Greatness of the Kingdom" by Dr. Alva J. McClain. The book is open in my lap and my bible is open on the arm of my chair. Every verse referenced in the book is read, in context, from my open bible.

How is that a terrible sin? You said in your post #118:

I never said that is a terrible sin. that is your claim, a false claim.

How does my study using the bible to check every verse cited make my methodology "mistakes" as you claim?

What is wrong is just taking the word of men as absolute truth. This includes your own preconceived notions of the truth with out ever checking with scripture.
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think that you have missed one of the most important per-conditions to any sinner being saved, which are the first words spoken by Jesus, according to Mark, "repent and believe the Gospel". You have quoted from one of my favorite OT passages, Ezekiel 18, but in a limited was so as to rob it of its real meaning. Here is the context:

I think we can agree that repentance and faith in Christ are pre-conditions for salvation. I don't know whether you believe that Calvinists think otherwise? The problem is that men and women will do neither unless God opens their hearts to respond. 'This is the condemnation; the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). Both repentance and faith are actually gifts of God (Acts 11:18; Ephesians 2:8), of necessity because 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44). We see this in pratice in the case of Lydia in Acts 16:14. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken to het by Paul.' She didn't open her own heart; Paul didn't do it by his preaching; God did it. 'salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9; Revelation 7:10).

This passage alone very clearly speaks to any honest mind, that God's Mercy in saving sinners is without any doubt, for the entire human race! I cannot understand how anyone can honestly think that God only has a few in mind when He spoke these words from the heart! Theology aside, any "limitation" placed on the Atoning work of Jesus Christ, is, in my opinion, one of the biggest heresies that certain people of the Church have dared to put forward!

Please read Revelation 7:9 and then tell me how that crowd gets any bigger or smaller depending on whether Arminianism or Calvinism is true.

They have changed the force of the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is for the salvation of each and every sinner, into a farce of "elitism" whereby only a "few" are deemed "worthy" of this eternal life!

It cannot be considered elitism if 'not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.....etc. ' (1 Corinthians 1:26-27).

True, ALL will not be saved, but this is NOT because of any deficiency in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, but the blatant refusal of hardened sinners (as we were once) to repent and believe in this Wonderful Gospel Message! As Jesus Himself tells the rebellious Jews of His day, "you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40), not as some have twisted its plain meaning, to, "could not will", which is NOT what the Greek says here! Note Jesus' words, "not willing", showing that ALL have "free will", to "will" (accept), or "not will" (reject).

You seem to be confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother HyperCalvin. The gates of heaven are wide open to all who will enter, but they do not, not because God somehow stops them, but because they have wicked unrepentant hearts. That is why 'Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

The fact that Jesus tells these Jews this (see context), is further evidence that He would have died also for them!

"Would have died for them"? Did He or didn't He?

 

[MB]

I think we can agree that repentance and faith in Christ are pre-conditions for salvation. I don't know whether you believe that Calvinists think otherwise? The problem is that men and women will do neither unless God opens their hearts to respond. 'This is the condemnation; the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). Both repentance and faith are actually gifts of God (Acts 11:18; Ephesians 2:8), of necessity because 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44). We see this in pratice in the case of Lydia in Acts 16:14. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken to het by Paul.' She didn't open her own heart; Paul didn't do it by his preaching; God did it. 'salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9; Revelation 7:10).

I believe all men are drawn. Christ said so
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. The reason most do not come to Him is because they love darkness.
Lydia was a worshiper before Paul.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Please read Revelation 7:9 and then tell me how that crowd gets any bigger or smaller depending on whether Arminianism or Calvinism is true.

I'm neither Arminian or Calvinist. Nothing but my Savior living with in me guarantees that I'll be there in that Crowd. Not church or pastor or theologin's. Only Jesus Christ. No one else but Him.

It cannot be considered elitism if 'not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.....etc. ' (1 Corinthians 1:26-27).

You seem to be confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother HyperCalvin. The gates of heaven are wide open to all who will enter, but they do not, not because God somehow stops them, but because they have wicked unrepentant hearts. That is why 'Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'

"Would have died for them"? Did He or didn't He?[/QUOTE]

Christ died for the whole world because He loved the world.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Still some men love darkness more than the light yet Christ did die for the Lost sinners of the world.
MB