John 3:16

[KenH]

Originally posted by Jacob:
I question the validity of Ken's banking illustration because Ken had the ability to get a loan or not - therfore, he's genuinely responsible for any ramifications.

And Adam did not have to sin. We were in his loins, therefore we are just as responsible as Adam for the ramifications. I am afraid that in the church today there are remnants of Pelagianism and a lack of understanding of the ramifications of Adam's sin for each of us individually.

Ken

 

[tyndale1946]

Faith Alone... By Grace Alone... By The Son Of God Alone!... The sinner is passive!... My error! Correction!... The sinner is DEAD!

Ephesians 2:[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Some just don't know how DEAD they were?... And brethren Total Depravity has already been explained... Hasn't it?... Brother Glen

 

[Jacob]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Are you with me, Jacob?

Rev. G

Taken in isolation, and at face value, I can't disagree with anything you said.

Jacob.

[ November 21, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Jacob ]

 

[Jacob]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Passivity is not a logical extension of "Calvinism" ("Hyper-Calvinism" - yes). The logical extension of "Calvinism" is unbridled zeal that is active. Look at the Protestant Reformation, the Modern Missions Movement, etc., etc.
Rev. G

Yes you are correct, there are many Calvinists with "zeal that is active" (I know a few). However, there are differing examples: some of my Calvinist buddies who are more interested in puffing themselves up with knowledge and do basically nothing else for the kingdom, my former denomination (CRC), Gene Scott...

However, in the grand scheme of things I think we need to debate what the scriptures say. I admit, I have no alternate interpretations for some of the Calvinistic proof texts.

Jacob.

 

[Rev. G]

And so your precious child is writhing in the agony of Hell (In the Presence of the Lamb and all His Holy Ones - Rev 14:10) and God says "yes - I hated her before she was even born. And now there she is - receiving my Wrath - for I AM Wrath toward Her just like I AM love toward you - lucky you - arbitrarily selected to be among the FEW of Matt 7." And of course you respond "Well at least I am doing fine - How wonderfully gracious!"

Bob:
Do you repeat this in just about every one of your posts because you have it memorized or something like that? What is this fixation that you have with this caricature of God, and why do seem to be deaf to us "Calvinists" who keep telling you that this is not our view of God?

Rev. G

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Bob: Do you repeat this in just about every one of your posts because you have it memorized or something like that?

Maybe it's the Arminian equivalent of the ABCs?

Ken

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
And so your precious child is writhing in the agony of Hell (In the Presence of the Lamb and all His Holy Ones - Rev 14:10) and God says "yes - I hated her before she was even born. And now there she is - receiving my Wrath - for I AM Wrath toward Her just like I AM love toward you - lucky you - arbitrarily selected to be among the FEW of Matt 7." And of course you respond "Well at least I am doing fine - How wonderfully gracious!"

You know, Bob, I'm a bit out of practice, but I'm still a half-decent programmer. I can write a little script for you that scouts this forum for key words and phrases like "elect", "predestine", "Rev. G", etc., and have the script automatically post this paragraph in response. It's easier if you run Linux but I could probably make it work under Windows, too.

 

[Rev. G]

Yes you are correct, there are many Calvinists with "zeal that is active" (I know a few). However, there are differing examples: some of my Calvinist buddies who are more interested in puffing themselves up with knowledge and do basically nothing else for the kingdom, my former denomination (CRC), Gene Scott...

Unfortunately there are some who begin studying theology and become enamored with Reformed Theology and fill their heads with knowledge and their hearts with pride. The problem is that it has not sunk down to the heart. When you understand these doctrines with the heart, you really believe total depravity - and that this doesn't refer to "everyone else" but to YOU! This does not lead to pride, but to humility! Theology is immensely practical! It is not a hobby.

Gene Scott! *@#%*!$%& If he's a "Calvinist" then I'm an "Arminian"!

However, in the grand scheme of things I think we need to debate what the scriptures say.

Every true "Calvinist" will agree with you on that! We need to discuss the Scriptures - not caricatures or characters.

I admit, I have no alternate interpretations for some of the Calvinistic proof texts.

Don't you mean biblical texts?

Rev. G

 

[BobRyan]

Rev G.
Analogy: There is a debt in millions, owed by "Ken."
Truth: ALL have a "sin debt" ("for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23). What is the result of debt, namely "sin debt"? "For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

Everyone is morally bankrupt. Everyone is responsible for their bankruptcy. They aren't responsible for not being able to get a loan, but for incurring debt.

The problem is not the inability to receive the loan. The problem is the debt that the individual has created himself/herself.

Analogy: An individual is able to get a bank loan.
Truth: Jesus did more than give a "loan." He paid the debt in full for those who believe upon Him alone to do so.

I like this model - because it provides a good basis for showing the disconnect between the Calvinist and Arminian POV - and (in my view) the disconnect between Calvinism and scripture.

In 1John 2:2 we are told that Christ became the "Atoning Sacrifice" for our sins and not for our sins only but for those of the Whole World.

This is an appeal to God's Own "Gospel illustration" in Lev 16 of the atonement process. Notice that the atoning sacrifice is a key part of that entire process - but the Day of Atonement does not end with the sacrifice. Hebrews 7-10 points to Christ as not only the sacrifice but also to the fact that He moves on to the role of High Priest in heaven. This voids the concept that application of the payment of the atoning sacrifice (Christ as the atoning sacrifice) - is part of the act of sacrifice itself and not an additional work of Christ in His role as High Priest - and additional part of the model that God identifies in Lev 16 as being needed.

In Rev G's point above he makes a good point about the debt owed - and the fact that we are unnable to pay.

IN the last 10 verses of Matt 18 we see "huge debt forgiven - and then forgiveness revoked".

This means the entire concept that Christ's atoning sacrifice not only provides payment - but applies it to a few arbitrarily selected individuals at the cross (the arbitrarily select few of Matt 7), and these are then born saved, born forgiven, born as saints, - is made void by both the forgiveness revoked model and by the Atoning Sacrifice model that stops short of the high priestly work in the sanctuary.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Still waiting for a response to my scenario taken DIRECTLY from the points made in Primitive Baptist's on Rom 9 post.

But getting instead --

Rev G.
Do you repeat this in just about every one of your posts because you have it memorized or something like that? What is this fixation that you have with this caricature of God, and why do seem to be deaf to us "Calvinists" who keep telling you that this is not our view of God?

Instead of dodging the point (as all the Calvinist responses have done since that post of mine on this thread) - why not address it?

POINT -

Primitive Baptists on Nov 20
God does not love every man without exception. The doctrine of the word of God cannot be reconciled with this Arminian, humanistic lie. God hated Esau before he committed any good or evil act (Rom. 9:11-13). God hated Esau not because He knew Esau would reject Him because God hated Esau without any regards to anything He knew Esau would do. This is called the sovereignty of God. It is inconsistent to teach God loves every man without exception

Primitive Baptist on Nov 21
Since you prefer the term "opportunity" instead of "chance," why then, does God not give every man without exception an "opportunity" to be saved if He loves every man without exception? After all, He is not willing that any of mankind should perish, right? Common sense teaches otherwise

See the point made that God does NOT love everyone and DOES choose to express only wrath to the "many" of MAtt 7 in hell.

Counter point:

Bob on Nov
And so your precious child is writhing in the agony of Hell (In the Presence of the Lamb and all His Holy Ones - Rev 14:10) and God says "yes - I hated her before she was even born. And now there she is - receiving my Wrath - for I AM Wrath toward Her just like I AM love toward you - lucky you - arbitrarily selected to be among the FEW of Matt 7." And of course you respond "Well at least I am doing fine - How wonderfully gracious!"

Are we really stuck with Calvinism's view of God?

See the counter point made that WHEN we remove your option to be callous toward the lost (as in the case of your own precious daughter burning in hell) - your view of God as enjoying wrath towards her and being loving to you - does NOT result in the same "how nice for me" type of "grace" that you anticipated as illustrated in Primitive Baptist's posts.

Now why pretend that this sequence of point and counter point is so hard to get? Why not simply answer the counter point in a way that PRESERVES the point that Primitive Baptist made and that ADDRESSES the counter point?

Dodging the issue seems counter productive and does not advance the argument for Calvinism - which is why we keep coming back to this sequence - STILL waiting for a direct response.

We keep coming back to this and then Stopping - why not simply advance your point beyond this by actually responding to the counterpoint?

Still waiting ...

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 22, 2002, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Sularis]

I found it amusing we got off topic of John 3:16 shortly after no-one answered my suggestion, well ok highly brilliant, innovative idea that within a span of 4 verses that a single word does not change meaning

Of course I'm highly humble

Ken, and everyone else the point is how did we earn the debt of sin?

See - Im that wierd kinda guy who says all humans get sin NATURE - not sin DEBT. And that the sin NATURE influences us to acquire very early on sin DEBT.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

07563 evr rasha‘ raw-shaw - shucks the Hebrew symbols dont come through - this word is used in two major situations throughout the OT - to refer to wrongdoing - the act of sin - or as an opposite to righteous or good - Let's look at the next verse

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

the rest of the passage is quite interesting - a good read.

As to your banking analogy - true not a single man on earth - save Yeshua HaMashiach being both man and God has the ability thanx to Adam to repay debt - but the acquisition of debt - no that is our responsibility and all too often our goal in life - in both real and spiritual terms

 

[BobRyan]

See - Im that wierd kinda guy who says all humans get sin NATURE - not sin DEBT. And that the sin NATURE influences us to acquire very early on sin DEBT.

By that argument - infants do not actualy need a savior until they choose to sin.

IN that case Romans 5 is not quite correct in its claim that death spread to all mankind through the one sin of Adam. And it goes so far as to mention those who did not choose to sin as in the cae of Adam himself. (In the likeness of Adam's sin").

On the other hand - if you assume that all of us "need a savior" then it is only because all of us are under the penalty of sin - even infants and that is the penalty of death.

Sin is like a virus - a cancer in God's universe of perfect peace, harmony and obedience. The heart is sinful - exceedingly wicked, corrupt. That is why we need not merely a "new choice" but a "new birth". We need to be "Created" into that new creation of 2Cor 5.

"For the mind set on the flesh does not submit to the law of God - neither indeed CAN it" Romans 8:7

God draws "all mankind" unto Him.

HE stands at the door and knocks.

Man's choice is enabled by the sovereign choice of God who sovereignly "chose" to draw ALL mankind to Himself.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Man's choice is enabled by the sovereign choice of God who sovereignly "chose" to draw ALL mankind to Himself.

If you are correct, Bob, then all mankind will be saved as God cannot fail in his effort to draw a person to Himself. And if a person is drawn to God he must inevitably be saved.

And I certainly would have no problem with the idea if God in His sovereign grace and mercy chose to save 100% of mankind and bring them to glory in His presence.

Ken

 

[cfolsom]

Brethren,

May I point out a few things most folks miss when it comes to this verse? Okay, I will

I see a few more Primitive Baptist have arived at the BB.com. Glad to see it.

John 3:16!!! One of my favorite verses. This verse teaches eternal security and not how to get "saved".

First, I'd like to address the word "world". Which world is Jesus speaking of? Is it the same world that is in Luke 2:1

Luke 2:1 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

or

Hebrew 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

or

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

or

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

or

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

or

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

It's the last one.....the "world" in John 3:16 is the same "world" spoken of in John 1:29. And this verse defines which world Christ is speaking of.

John 1:29 tell us Christ is the one, the Lamb, which will take away the sin of the "world". If the "world" has no sin, then how could it perrish in everlasting damnation? But we know, by scripture, some are in hell and other will go to hell.

If Christ died for all mankind, He took away the sin of all mankind. If that be the case, then by scripture there should be no one except Satan and his angels in hell, right? Remember Christ died for the whole human race and when Christ did that, He took away the sin of the world. If one believes Christ took away the sin of the world as it is written in God's Word and one also believes Christ died for everybody, then one must, by default, believe hell is only populated by Satan and his angels.

The truth of the matter is this, Christ died for all those God gave Him (John 6:39)and all those God gave Christ are considered the "world" which is spoken of in John 1:29 and John 3:16. It's the only thing that really makes sinse. I pray God will reveal it to all His people.

We need to understand what world Christ was speaking of or else we will come to the wrong conclusion.

Changed like Saul,

Elder Chris Folsom

 

[tyndale1946]

Context... context... context!... I agree with my fellow yokefellow Brother Chris!... If Christ saved the whole Adamic world then there is surely contradiction in scripture because as much as WE would like it to be so it isn't.

The world in consideration is the world of Gods elect whether we believe it or not. The two thieves on the cross is a good example... One belong to Jesus and the other did not. Since he addressed the one and not the other the implication is the other one did not belong to him! Some say unfair but then we are looking at it through mortal human eyes. I hear others say well we were not there so he may have been saved later... That's heresay and since the Bible doesn't address it neither should we.

The plain fact of the matter is there are some that do not belong to God... It was nothing they did or did not do that put them there either. We were all headed the same way but according to scripture there were the elect of God chosen out of all according to Gods WILL... PLAN... and PURPOSE. Since he did not chose them they are left where they are... In their sins!

Any that want to disagree with that interpretation of John 3:16 are free to do so but then you are wrestling and twisting the scriptures to mean something they do not say. Grace is never and offer and if it was then there would have been no reason for the death of the Son of God.

Another thing to be pointed out is that this is within the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus about how a man is born again. We had no control over our natural birth and do not have any control over our spiritual birth. We are brought to God drawn by Jesus Christ and that is the only way we get to the world in question. The world that Jesus loved and saved and as the scriptures state the reason he came to earth. Thou shall bring forth a Son and thou shall call his name JESUS... For he shall save his people from their sins!... "GOD WILL SAVE ALL HIS BLOOD BOUGHT CHILDREN"... Brother Glen

 

[Robert Nicholson]

Brother Chris

I respectfully disagree with your purposal that John 3:16 is only speaking of assurance and not how to be saved. If you are correct than I praise God that I was incorrect over 48 years ago when God by his Spirit used the words of this verse to reveal to me the truth that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

You are correct that the word "World" or Kosmos has many meanings. However, within the context of v. 16 we are reading of God's love which is an attribute of God himself, he alone is the source of love. His love is infinite and is demonstrated at Calvary when he spared not his Son.

In addition, in John 3 as we follow the conversation between the Lord Jesus Christ and Nicodemus in which Jesus is teaching him the need of being born again and explaining how it will come about. He reminds Nicodemus of a familar event in v. 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" Jesus then brings forth the reason for his death upon the cross in v. 15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life"

In verse 16 the Lord Jesus gives an overview of God's great plan and in v. 17 his purpose for coming into the world "that the world through him might be saved". Does this mean that every person is saved? Not at all! In v.18 we read of two groups "He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

We know from Eph. 2:8 that faith is what brings about salvation which is by God's grace alone. In 1 John 2:2 we read about Christ "he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for (the sins of) the whole world"

Propitation or that which propitates speaks of Christ who in his death has provided a grounds upon which a Holy God who could not look on sin, could be propitatous and set the guilty free. Forgiveness is not forced upon the world, but is freely offered to those who by faith rest in the sacrifice of Christ.

I agree that as we read the words of John 3 that we who are saved can rejoice in its truth and we rest upon the promises of Christ thereby giving us assurance.

"We love him because he first loved us"

Robert

 

[KenH]

The discussion of the new birth in John chapter 3 is indicative, not imperative. Jesus didn't say "Do this and be born again." He said, "You must be born again." And He discussed that in the context of the work of the Holy Spirit that is unseen except for His effects in the lives of those whom He regenerates.

Ken

 

[EPH 1:4]

I agree with Elder Folsom

 

[Pioneer]

In order to accept the teachings of Calvinism one must either re-define the words "world" and "whosoever" or pretend that God didn't really mean what he said. By the way, "election" cannot possibly be unconditional when I Peter 1:2 states - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God ..."

 

[cfolsom]

Brethren,
Let's look at some of the other words in John 3:16. First, the verse itself.

(Christ Jesus said)John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"BELIEVETH" the Greek is πιστεύω pisteuō
(pist-yoo'-o)
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Believeth is to have faith in. Logic and scripture tells us faith must come first. There is no ability to "believeth" without faith. If faith must come first, which I believe, how does one get faith? Where does faith come from? Does faith just appear out of thin air? Does anyone have the ability to "grab" faith so one might believeth?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Paul tells us in the Ephesians's letter faith is a gift. One could argue grace as a gift and I would agree, but in this case, as it is in the english language, "and THAT not of yourselves:" refers to the noun closest to "THAT" (a pronoun) which is believeth. In this verse, Paul instructs the child of God what their very faith is and where it comes from and that is God Himself. So, unless God gives us faith, we do not have the ability to "believeth".

Also, the word by definition, is a present tense word, both in the Greek and English. This states, by Christ Himself, anyone who believeth at this very moment will not perish. One might say "ah ha there it is!!! anyone who believes right now has everlasting life." I agree with that 100%, but one must remember no one can "believeth" without faith and no one can have faith unless God gives one faith.

Therefore, I stand with John 3:16 being and eternal security text and not a text on how to be saved. Why? Because God gives a man faith and if God has not given the faith, a man does not have the ability to 'believeth", no matter how much he is preached at our taught what God's word has to say!!!

Changed like Saul,

Elder Chris Folsom