John 6:37 and Irresistible Grace

If you can produce Scripture that says God gave them to Christ because of their faith being foreknown, I'll believe it.

 

I Peter 1:1 and 2

who are chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

I believe what it says. Election is based on foreknowledge.

Because Election is based on foreknowledge the Election can not come first.

Whatever Election is it is because of something that is foreknown. Election is after the fact.

Buggy Horse
Foreknowledge (something ) Election

You could word it this way

According to the Foreknowledge of God you are Chosen by the by the sanctifying work of the Spirit

What is the "sanctifying work of the Spirit"

Let me see what the Holy Spirit's ministry is:

John16: 8. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

9. concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10. and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11. and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

So let do it again:

who are chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

(who are chosen)

by the sanctifying work of the Spirit,( what does the Spirit do? John 16:8)

to obey Jesus Christ (to obey Jesus is to believe in Him)

and be sprinkled with His blood: (suggest living a pure life in mind and body)

There you have it as simple as Apple Pie.

For our understanding we are told the "mystery" of salvation. What the process is.

God states through Peter I elected you because I foresaw that when the Holy Spirit convicted you - you obeyed the Gospel.

I declare you elect before the foundation of the world in eternity past in Christ and I have already appointed you to heaven. Acts 13:48

I, God, called you because I saw you believing before you were in existence and because I can't make a mistake and I know all it is sure and on that basis I appoint you to eternal life and My son will not lose you, I love Him because He obeyed me and die for you.

That is it folks.

 

The Scripture that you have quoted only says we are "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God. It does not say that God foreknew our faith? As a matter of fact it makes our obedience of faith a production of the sanctification of the Holy Ghost. In 2Pe 1:1 We read: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
The word "obtained" in that passage means to be given by Divine allotment. I.E. God gives us the faith tho believe on Christ. We were chosen to be believers in Christ, not because we were believers in Christ.
No where in the Bible does it say that God chose us because He saw or knew we would believe.

 

This is from Wuest's Word Studies:
1 Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
The recipients of this letter are called "elect." The word is eklektois, a plural adjective from the verb eklego which means "to pick out" or "to select out of a number." The verb is used in Ephesians 1:4 where it is rendered "chosen," referring to the act of God in sovereign grace choosing out certain from among mankind for Himself, the verb in Ephesians being middle in voice, speaking of the subject acting in his own interest. These to whom Peter is writing are "selected out ones." The words "according to" are the translation of kata whose root meaning is "down," which gives the idea of domination. This choice out from a number was dominated by the foreknowledge of God the Father. This is the first step in the act of God bringing a sinner into the place of salvation. God the Father chooses him out, this choice being dominated or controlled or determined by His foreknowledge.
The word "foreknowledge" is the translation of the noun prognosin which is found twice in the New Testament, its verb form proginosko, five times. In Acts 26:5 and 2 Peter 3:17 we have the purely classical meaning of the verb, namely, "previous knowledge." But in Acts 2:23, and 1 Peter 1:2, the meaning of the noun form, and in Romans 8:29 and 11:2, and 1 Peter 1:20, the meaning of the verb form, goes beyond the purely classical meaning of the possession of previous knowledge, and refers to that which the A.V. in 1 Peter 1:20 calls foreordination. The first time the noun form prognosin is found is in Acts 2:23, where it is used in the clause, "him being delivered by the determinate counsel and obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
foreknowledge of God." The words "counsel" and "foreknowledge" are in a Greek construction which makes both words refer here to the same act, presenting that act in its two aspects. The content of meaning in the word "foreknowledge" here is made clear therefore by the words "the determinate counsel." The meaning of "foreknowledge" here and in the other four places where the words "foreknew" and "foreknowledge" occur, cannot be merely "previous knowledge." The Greek word "counsel," boule, refers to an interchange of opinions, a mutual advising, the exchange of deliberative judgment. The word "determinate" is the translation of horismenei, a perfect participle which refers to the past act of putting limits upon something with the present result that some certain thing has been appointed or decreed. The word "foreknowledge" therefore refers to that counsel of God in which after deliberative judgment, the Lord Jesus was to be delivered into human hands to be crucified. In 1 Peter 1:20, He is the One who was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb who was to take away the sins of lost humanity. Thus, in 1 Peter 1:2, the word "foreknowledge" refers to that counsel of God in which after deliberative judgment certain from among mankind were designated to a certain position, that position being defined by the context.

 

The second step in the salvation of a sinner is seen in the words "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience." The Greek makes it clear that it is the Holy Spirit who does the sanctifying. The Greek word "sanctify" means "to set apart." The word "through" is the translation of en, which means literally "in." The whole phrase is in a grammatical classification known as the locative of sphere. It was in the sphere of the setting apart work of the Spirit that the sinner was chosen. That is, God the Father chose the sinner out from among mankind to be the recipient of the setting-apart work of the Spirit, in which work the Holy Spirit sets the sinner apart from his unbelief to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus. The act of faith is spoken of here by the word obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).

(Wuest Word Studies)

Hope this helps you see why I do not accept your answer. No hard feelings.

 

I think alot of Christians do not realise that others actually do not want what we have in Christ. It does not seem logical that someone would not believe something we see so clearly as the Truth. They might not fully realise the full impact, but they are in fact making a choice. They are doing their own thing and have no need for our God.

Understanding that helps see the need for God to save us. There is no one who would want to do anything but their own thing until He touches them and gives them the desire to do so. We are blessed to be His children and should be glad that He did not leave that decision up to us. We ain't that smart.

Hope this is not to off topic, It is just my thoughts while reading this thread.

 

Man

Man will always look to blame God for their predicament from the beginning.

It was the women you created; it was the snake you created.

Now it is because God didn't draw us to Him.

It is our decision to come. If it was not for the work of the Holy Spirit through the words of Jesus we would not have the ability to make the decision.

God does not incline our hearts to believe but gives us a clear choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

It is the will of God that believers be saved not the will of man. It is the decision of God that believers be saved.

It has a lot to do with foreknowledge.

Those who God foreknew will come.

God does love this world and has given a hope to us through Jesus, through Jesus being lifted up all men will be drawn to Jesus.

You cannot blame God for Him not choosing you, you are the one that walked away.

God wants to gather you like a hen does her chicks, but it is you who were not willing.

Everyone has the same hope as we have and we arte the messenger of it.

The grace of God is for everyone, don't let men’s misunderstanding of God's word turn you away.

You can come it is an open invitation.

I may not be the greatest speaker, but I do know God loves this world and gave it a hope through Jesus, even if men’s wicked heart is looking for a way He doesn’t.

Not all will be saved but believers who faith is evident by what they do will not be disappointed

 

Try using a little scripture to base your emotionalism upon. We have provided scripture after scripture, and asked you to adress scripture after scripture. You refuse. Its getting a little old. You are not helping your case. People are going to tend to ignore you. I know I do most of the time.

 

Yes indeed...

What is a saint?

The Bible tells us. As already been stated ...Saint is set apart one...or holy one. We are Called out from the world. We are called by God to be Saints/holy. We are separated from the world by God.

Lev. 20
26"And ye shall be HOLY (set apart, separated) UNTO ME; for I, the LORD, am HOLY, and have separated you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE"

Rom. 1..
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 cor 1
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's

Jude
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

1 Cor 6
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Heb 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Col 3
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering

1 thes 4
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

1 pet 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


In Christ...James

 

John 17:17. "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. (Daily Sanctification )

John 17:19. "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. (Daily Sanctification)

Eph. 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (the body of Christ)

I Thess. 5:23. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Daily Sanctification)

Hebrews 9:13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, (sanctification as a results of atonement - willingly people present themselves for being set apart )

Hebrews 13:12. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. (atonement principle - shedding of blood )

I Peter 3:15. but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always {being} ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; (Daily setting apart)



20. For Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21. who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22. Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23. for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.

 

Jim1611
I can understand why you Like to quote from Kenneth W.
But also please let others know of some of the critisism that pertain to his work. Good though it is in most respects.

Wikipedia
Criticism
Some critics[6] have charged that in specific instances, Wuest’s translations and commentaries go beyond a strict analysis of grammar and word meaning, and bring preconceived theological and doctrinal considerations into the task of exegesis.

Example [6] from the Wikipedia:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/wuest.html

Anyhoo...
About your statement specifically here:

I will agree with you that it is refering to Gods election (Divine alotment) but I dare say the text nor its context DOES NOT read or allude to God gave us Faith (verb) to believe in Christ. You are bringing a theological view and or construct into this passage and reading it (or into it) with a predetermind bias.

We know 1 Peter was written unto the Jewish believers that were scattered abroad and 2 Peter enlarges that audience to encompass believing Gentiles as well as he does not distinguish this letter as he did the first. We see this also is HOW he refers to those who have believed as "...them that have obtained like precious faith WITH US..." Many of these Jews (as was apparently common) thought they were the only ones who were Gods chosen people. Peter here is addressing that they to are 'elect or chosen' by God as well.

The contexual object of these verses (and specifically this verse) is NOT about God giving a faith (verb) to be believers but that these who were once Not of God are now by the Righteousness of God (perfect Holiness) ordained unto life, elected unto salvation, or chosen by God to partake of "...this like (same) precious Faith (noun)..." but not as in having Faith (verb). Keep the context brother as I know you hold it as dearly as I do. BTW - Hello agian :wavey: :thumbsup:

 

I would like to also address your contention here.
No where in scripture does it state that He doesn't. The same verses you use to state NO WHERE... we also state this same ...NO WHERE in opposition of your view.

The point I am making is this; ALL they are, are assumptions on our part as Man who knows nothing of mind of God. Yes, we can postulate according to certain rendering of the texts but do not forget that presupposition is a large part of how we look at those scriptures which allude to 'what' God knew but we have NOTHING substantial wherewith to build a doctrine on it. Only views that help substantiate a system of theology based on conjecture and limited understanding.

Here is an excert from Barnes Notes on the NT. I not sure how Calvinistic (I think a 4 pointer) he is but I believe (if memory serves) he considers himself to be one. Though I like His what he says here with regard to foreknowledge from:

 

Gordon,

Please to not mix the meanings. There is a "Daily Sanctification "...as you said below.

But this is not salvation. Salvation.."set apart" .."saints"..."a holy people" ...is a one time thing, not daily. (Daily setting apart)...heb 5....like new born babes....we my grow. This is after salvation. Yet the act of becoming a Saint...set apart..unto the Lord is the saving of the elect and this happens one time.


In Christ....James

 

The same charges are laid out on many people, but I would not post any of those if I found them. The exposition Wuest gave on the text in view is a very good one & the old ad Hominem trick will not work on the one who studies what has been said. Glad to see you to.
And as to your problem with faith being given. The text is to plain. No controversy there for me.
By the way Hello. I have been out for a while.

 

I agree, it was just that You laid out two pages worth of His expository writings it would only be fair to those reading it that they know He has a distinct Calvinist bent that other translators acknowledge concerning his particular rendering of certain scriptures. It was not an ad Hominem when it is a noted fact that his rederings go well beyond a strictly philological exegesis, and enter into the realm of theological exposition. I wasn't trying to degrade him but let others be aware. In fact if you will or would have noted the later part of the sites page you would have seen this:

Anyway I was not trying to discredit him or you for using, and sorry if that was how it came out.

I have been away as well. I think I have been out for like 2 weeks with little blurps here and there but today is the first time I have really gotten to be apart of here again.

And I realize the text is plain that is why I was showing you that the Faith spoken of there has nothing to do with a God given faith but them being IN the Faith or Christ. The difference is specific as one is a verb and the other a noun.

What have you been doing that kept you out of here, brother?

 

I have been through a very stressful time with a job that I have been put on. I am dealing with people who do not respect a Christian, fowl language like you would not believe, personal degragredation. I have been mentally put in a hole on this one. I have not been able but to post a few things & really cant think staraight lately. I need strong prayer on my behalf.
On a side note. I slid that ad Hominem part in there for the readers and not particularly for you. By reading your posts, I see you study, but a lot of folks who read things in my experience, will not even read the link you posted and draw the conclusion to throw out all that was said just because of the doubt cast on him. Not trying to say you threw his exposition off. I just wanted people to consider that particular exposition which I think is a good one. Bless you Brother!

 

I personally just came out of a deep depression that I can only equate as one that is spiritual but definately combined work, starting up a church, helping strengthen another AND family with a pregant wife. I was sliding into a hole that I saw no bottom to, and I will say that the Lord my God brought me through it only a week ago. God be praised. So I know in part and maybe only in slight what is going on with you. Forget debate board -

I will pray for you brother. Even while I type this I am asking for God remove the burden and that despair that so easily tries to beset us be turned away. I pray the Joy of HIS salvation return to your spirit and that the high praises of God well up inside you to the bursting forth of His glory. That God will remove that which is not of Him (whether us or the enemy added) and lead you into His truth for your spiritual growth, renewal when your world seems dim and harsh. God be praised He finds you worthy to partake in the sufferings (though not physical still just as injurous) of Christ. Keep that faith He was so lovingly nurtured in you brother. I will continue to pray for you. May His light so shine in your heart and spirit that you see that solid Rock on which you stand and rest in the peace and safety of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It is just some of the thoughts from my prayer for you brother. It may sound wierd but it so you can have a snap shot of what I am in pray for.