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John 6:37 and Irresistible Grace
- Thread starter Martin
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GordonSlocum
New Member
jne1611 said:
I Peter 1:1 and 2
who are chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
I believe what it says. Election is based on foreknowledge.
Because Election is based on foreknowledge the Election can not come first.
Whatever Election is it is because of something that is foreknown. Election is after the fact.
Buggy Horse
Foreknowledge (something ) Election
You could word it this way
According to the Foreknowledge of God you are Chosen by the by the sanctifying work of the Spirit
What is the "sanctifying work of the Spirit"
Let me see what the Holy Spirit's ministry is:
John16: 8. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9. concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10. and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11. and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
So let do it again:
who are chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
(who are chosen)
by the sanctifying work of the Spirit,( what does the Spirit do? John 16:8)
to obey Jesus Christ (to obey Jesus is to believe in Him)
and be sprinkled with His blood: (suggest living a pure life in mind and body)
There you have it as simple as Apple Pie.
For our understanding we are told the "mystery" of salvation. What the process is.
God states through Peter I elected you because I foresaw that when the Holy Spirit convicted you - you obeyed the Gospel.
I declare you elect before the foundation of the world in eternity past in Christ and I have already appointed you to heaven. Acts 13:48
I, God, called you because I saw you believing before you were in existence and because I can't make a mistake and I know all it is sure and on that basis I appoint you to eternal life and My son will not lose you, I love Him because He obeyed me and die for you.
That is it folks.
The Scripture that you have quoted only says we are "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God. It does not say that God foreknew our faith? As a matter of fact it makes our obedience of faith a production of the sanctification of the Holy Ghost. In 2Pe 1:1 We read: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:GordonSlocum said:
The word "obtained" in that passage means to be given by Divine allotment. I.E. God gives us the faith tho believe on Christ. We were chosen to be believers in Christ, not because we were believers in Christ.
No where in the Bible does it say that God chose us because He saw or knew we would believe.
This is from Wuest's Word Studies:
1 Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
The recipients of this letter are called "elect." The word is eklektois, a plural adjective from the verb eklego which means "to pick out" or "to select out of a number." The verb is used in Ephesians 1:4 where it is rendered "chosen," referring to the act of God in sovereign grace choosing out certain from among mankind for Himself, the verb in Ephesians being middle in voice, speaking of the subject acting in his own interest. These to whom Peter is writing are "selected out ones." The words "according to" are the translation of kata whose root meaning is "down," which gives the idea of domination. This choice out from a number was dominated by the foreknowledge of God the Father. This is the first step in the act of God bringing a sinner into the place of salvation. God the Father chooses him out, this choice being dominated or controlled or determined by His foreknowledge.
The word "foreknowledge" is the translation of the noun prognosin which is found twice in the New Testament, its verb form proginosko, five times. In Acts 26:5 and 2 Peter 3:17 we have the purely classical meaning of the verb, namely, "previous knowledge." But in Acts 2:23, and 1 Peter 1:2, the meaning of the noun form, and in Romans 8:29 and 11:2, and 1 Peter 1:20, the meaning of the verb form, goes beyond the purely classical meaning of the possession of previous knowledge, and refers to that which the A.V. in 1 Peter 1:20 calls foreordination. The first time the noun form prognosin is found is in Acts 2:23, where it is used in the clause, "him being delivered by the determinate counsel and obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
foreknowledge of God." The words "counsel" and "foreknowledge" are in a Greek construction which makes both words refer here to the same act, presenting that act in its two aspects. The content of meaning in the word "foreknowledge" here is made clear therefore by the words "the determinate counsel." The meaning of "foreknowledge" here and in the other four places where the words "foreknew" and "foreknowledge" occur, cannot be merely "previous knowledge." The Greek word "counsel," boule, refers to an interchange of opinions, a mutual advising, the exchange of deliberative judgment. The word "determinate" is the translation of horismenei, a perfect participle which refers to the past act of putting limits upon something with the present result that some certain thing has been appointed or decreed. The word "foreknowledge" therefore refers to that counsel of God in which after deliberative judgment, the Lord Jesus was to be delivered into human hands to be crucified. In 1 Peter 1:20, He is the One who was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb who was to take away the sins of lost humanity. Thus, in 1 Peter 1:2, the word "foreknowledge" refers to that counsel of God in which after deliberative judgment certain from among mankind were designated to a certain position, that position being defined by the context.
1 Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
The recipients of this letter are called "elect." The word is eklektois, a plural adjective from the verb eklego which means "to pick out" or "to select out of a number." The verb is used in Ephesians 1:4 where it is rendered "chosen," referring to the act of God in sovereign grace choosing out certain from among mankind for Himself, the verb in Ephesians being middle in voice, speaking of the subject acting in his own interest. These to whom Peter is writing are "selected out ones." The words "according to" are the translation of kata whose root meaning is "down," which gives the idea of domination. This choice out from a number was dominated by the foreknowledge of God the Father. This is the first step in the act of God bringing a sinner into the place of salvation. God the Father chooses him out, this choice being dominated or controlled or determined by His foreknowledge.
The word "foreknowledge" is the translation of the noun prognosin which is found twice in the New Testament, its verb form proginosko, five times. In Acts 26:5 and 2 Peter 3:17 we have the purely classical meaning of the verb, namely, "previous knowledge." But in Acts 2:23, and 1 Peter 1:2, the meaning of the noun form, and in Romans 8:29 and 11:2, and 1 Peter 1:20, the meaning of the verb form, goes beyond the purely classical meaning of the possession of previous knowledge, and refers to that which the A.V. in 1 Peter 1:20 calls foreordination. The first time the noun form prognosin is found is in Acts 2:23, where it is used in the clause, "him being delivered by the determinate counsel and obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
foreknowledge of God." The words "counsel" and "foreknowledge" are in a Greek construction which makes both words refer here to the same act, presenting that act in its two aspects. The content of meaning in the word "foreknowledge" here is made clear therefore by the words "the determinate counsel." The meaning of "foreknowledge" here and in the other four places where the words "foreknew" and "foreknowledge" occur, cannot be merely "previous knowledge." The Greek word "counsel," boule, refers to an interchange of opinions, a mutual advising, the exchange of deliberative judgment. The word "determinate" is the translation of horismenei, a perfect participle which refers to the past act of putting limits upon something with the present result that some certain thing has been appointed or decreed. The word "foreknowledge" therefore refers to that counsel of God in which after deliberative judgment, the Lord Jesus was to be delivered into human hands to be crucified. In 1 Peter 1:20, He is the One who was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb who was to take away the sins of lost humanity. Thus, in 1 Peter 1:2, the word "foreknowledge" refers to that counsel of God in which after deliberative judgment certain from among mankind were designated to a certain position, that position being defined by the context.
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The second step in the salvation of a sinner is seen in the words "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience." The Greek makes it clear that it is the Holy Spirit who does the sanctifying. The Greek word "sanctify" means "to set apart." The word "through" is the translation of en, which means literally "in." The whole phrase is in a grammatical classification known as the locative of sphere. It was in the sphere of the setting apart work of the Spirit that the sinner was chosen. That is, God the Father chose the sinner out from among mankind to be the recipient of the setting-apart work of the Spirit, in which work the Holy Spirit sets the sinner apart from his unbelief to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus. The act of faith is spoken of here by the word obedience," which is not the obedience of the saint, but that of the sinner to the Faith, for this act is answered by his being cleansed in the precious blood of Jesus. In Acts 6:7 we read that "a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Thus, the second step in the salvation of a sinner is taken by the Holy Spirit who brings the one chosen to the act of faith in the Lord Jesus as Saviour.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
(Wuest Word Studies)
Hope this helps you see why I do not accept your answer. No hard feelings.
This is followed by the third step in which God the Son cleanses that believing sinner in His precious blood. This is given us in the words "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," Peter using the phraseology and typology of the Levitical ritual where the priest sprinkled the people with the sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:19).
(Wuest Word Studies)
Hope this helps you see why I do not accept your answer. No hard feelings.
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I think alot of Christians do not realise that others actually do not want what we have in Christ. It does not seem logical that someone would not believe something we see so clearly as the Truth. They might not fully realise the full impact, but they are in fact making a choice. They are doing their own thing and have no need for our God.
Understanding that helps see the need for God to save us. There is no one who would want to do anything but their own thing until He touches them and gives them the desire to do so. We are blessed to be His children and should be glad that He did not leave that decision up to us. We ain't that smart.
Hope this is not to off topic, It is just my thoughts while reading this thread.
GordonSlocum said:
==That is a bit of a jump. First we have to define foreknowledge and then what is being foreknown. Foreknowledge, I think we can all agree, can easily be defined as knowing beforehand. What did God know beforehand? Did He know who would believe? Certainly that is true (2Tim 2:19). However the question must be asked, is that what Peter is talking about here? Is Peter saying that God's election is based on man's action, or lack thereof? That God, in salvation, is simply responding to what man does? If so that is a position that causes alot of problems. The Bible clearly teaches that no man seeks God (Rom 3:9-12) and that nobody comes to the Father without the Father "first" granting them the ability (Jn 6:44,65). The Bible teaches that the new birth is not of the will of man (Jn 1:13). The Bible also says that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2) and that our faith, God's grace, and salvation is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9) that cannot be earned (Rom 4:4-5). So I don't see this idea that God is simply a responder in salvation generally taught in the New Testament. It is certainly not taught in the Gospel of John, Romans, or Hebrews.
Peter says that Christians "are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (vs2) yet in verse 3 he says that God "has caused us to be born again". This also seems to argue against the idea that foreknowledge here is God simply looking through time.
The idea of foreknowledge here is that God knew the believer in eternity past. God's election is based on His knowing the person (whom He foreknew). His choice is not based on "anything" that person has done. In fact that person can do "nothing" to gain God's favor and apart from God's work they will not even seek Him (see Rom 3). It is because of God's election, and God's work in their life, that they come to Christ. God personally choose certain individuals to deliever out of the world and give to Christ. These He has granted the ability to come to Christ in faith and Christ will raise them up on the last day. This is in agreement with Paul's statement in Romans 8:29-30 and his statement in Ephesians chapter one. Peter is clear that God causes the salvation of people. God is not simply observing this, He is causing this. Also, in the Gospel of John, we see God's action coming "before" man's action. The Father gives a person to Jesus then the person comes to Jesus.
Therefore I cannot agree with your position.
GordonSlocum said:
==Yet in fact Scripture clearly teaches that election comes first. I have looked at John 6, you can also look at John 10, Ephesians 1, and other sections of Scripture. In John 15:16 we are told that we did not choose Jesus, but rather He chose us. In Acts 13:48 we see that "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (direct quote). In 2Thessalonians 2:13 we are told that God had "chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth". Scripture clearly teaches that it is God's action that results in man's salvation. God is not simply looking down through time electing those who he sees having faith (indeed a person cannot have faith unless He grants them to come to Christ, unless He gives them faith - Jn 6:44,65, Eph 2:8-9, etc). No it is God who brings faith about, it is God who grants repentance.
Again for all these reasons, and more, I cannot accept your premise.
GordonSlocum said:
==You just did away with the idea that salvation is of the Lord and you just made salvation of man. You have made God a passive player in the salvation if individuals. He just looks down through time and saves those He sees believing. God is left, in your view, responding to what man does. Now I suppose that if a person is willing to accept that idea then I guess it is as simple as apple pie. However I cannot accept that idea because Scripture clearly does not agree with your position.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Man
Man will always look to blame God for their predicament from the beginning.
It was the women you created; it was the snake you created.
Now it is because God didn't draw us to Him.
It is our decision to come. If it was not for the work of the Holy Spirit through the words of Jesus we would not have the ability to make the decision.
God does not incline our hearts to believe but gives us a clear choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.
It is the will of God that believers be saved not the will of man. It is the decision of God that believers be saved.
It has a lot to do with foreknowledge.
Those who God foreknew will come.
God does love this world and has given a hope to us through Jesus, through Jesus being lifted up all men will be drawn to Jesus.
You cannot blame God for Him not choosing you, you are the one that walked away.
God wants to gather you like a hen does her chicks, but it is you who were not willing.
Everyone has the same hope as we have and we arte the messenger of it.
The grace of God is for everyone, don't let men’s misunderstanding of God's word turn you away.
You can come it is an open invitation.
I may not be the greatest speaker, but I do know God loves this world and gave it a hope through Jesus, even if men’s wicked heart is looking for a way He doesn’t.
Not all will be saved but believers who faith is evident by what they do will not be disappointed
Man will always look to blame God for their predicament from the beginning.
It was the women you created; it was the snake you created.
Now it is because God didn't draw us to Him.
It is our decision to come. If it was not for the work of the Holy Spirit through the words of Jesus we would not have the ability to make the decision.
God does not incline our hearts to believe but gives us a clear choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.
It is the will of God that believers be saved not the will of man. It is the decision of God that believers be saved.
It has a lot to do with foreknowledge.
Those who God foreknew will come.
God does love this world and has given a hope to us through Jesus, through Jesus being lifted up all men will be drawn to Jesus.
You cannot blame God for Him not choosing you, you are the one that walked away.
God wants to gather you like a hen does her chicks, but it is you who were not willing.
Everyone has the same hope as we have and we arte the messenger of it.
The grace of God is for everyone, don't let men’s misunderstanding of God's word turn you away.
You can come it is an open invitation.
I may not be the greatest speaker, but I do know God loves this world and gave it a hope through Jesus, even if men’s wicked heart is looking for a way He doesn’t.
Not all will be saved but believers who faith is evident by what they do will not be disappointed
psalms109:31 said:
==Yet we have the Lord Jesus, in John 6:60-66, telling us that He knew those who did not truly believe and that it was "for this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father".
psalms109:31 said:
==The first part of your statement, that I have put in bold, is a direct denial of Scripture. So I really don't know how to respond. Gosh, there are many verses of Scripture I could point to that directly refute, in no uncertain terms, your statement. I think John 6:37 does a good job, Hebrews 12:2, Acts 13:48, 2Thess 2:13, etc, etc.
The offer of salvation is made to all (Jn 3:16, 12:32) but only those God has elected will come to Christ (Jn 6:37,44).
psalms109:31 said:
==Friend, Scripture tells us that all men/women have walked away and that no man seeks God (Rom 3:9-12). No person deserves salvation, God's salvation is a gift to those He chooses to give it to. If a person dies lost, and therefore ends up in hell, they do so because that is what they deserve. It is what we all deserve. Yet God, in His great mercy, has provided salvation and those He has appointed will believe and be saved. No man can blame God for their lost condition.
psalms109:31 said:
==Where does Scripture say this? Please tell me you are not trying to quote Matthew 23:37-38.
reformedbeliever
New Member
psalms109:31 said:
Try using a little scripture to base your emotionalism upon. We have provided scripture after scripture, and asked you to adress scripture after scripture. You refuse. Its getting a little old. You are not helping your case. People are going to tend to ignore you. I know I do most of the time.
Jarthur001
Active Member
jne1611 said:
Yes indeed...
What is a saint?
The Bible tells us. As already been stated ...Saint is set apart one...or holy one. We are Called out from the world. We are called by God to be Saints/holy. We are separated from the world by God.
Lev. 20
26"And ye shall be HOLY (set apart, separated) UNTO ME; for I, the LORD, am HOLY, and have separated you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE"
Rom. 1..
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 cor 1
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's
Jude
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
1 Cor 6
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Heb 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Col 3
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering
1 thes 4
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1 pet 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
In Christ...James
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GordonSlocum
New Member
John 17:17. "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. (Daily Sanctification )
John 17:19. "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. (Daily Sanctification)
Eph. 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (the body of Christ)
I Thess. 5:23. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Daily Sanctification)
Hebrews 9:13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, (sanctification as a results of atonement - willingly people present themselves for being set apart )
Hebrews 13:12. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. (atonement principle - shedding of blood )
I Peter 3:15. but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always {being} ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; (Daily setting apart)
20. For Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21. who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22. Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23. for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.
John 17:19. "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. (Daily Sanctification)
Eph. 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (the body of Christ)
I Thess. 5:23. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Daily Sanctification)
Hebrews 9:13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, (sanctification as a results of atonement - willingly people present themselves for being set apart )
Hebrews 13:12. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. (atonement principle - shedding of blood )
I Peter 3:15. but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always {being} ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; (Daily setting apart)
20. For Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21. who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22. Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23. for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.
Jim1611
I can understand why you Like to quote from Kenneth W.
But also please let others know of some of the critisism that pertain to his work. Good though it is in most respects.
Wikipedia
Criticism
Some critics[6] have charged that in specific instances, Wuest’s translations and commentaries go beyond a strict analysis of grammar and word meaning, and bring preconceived theological and doctrinal considerations into the task of exegesis.
Example [6] from the Wikipedia:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/wuest.html
Anyhoo...
About your statement specifically here:
We know 1 Peter was written unto the Jewish believers that were scattered abroad and 2 Peter enlarges that audience to encompass believing Gentiles as well as he does not distinguish this letter as he did the first. We see this also is HOW he refers to those who have believed as "...them that have obtained like precious faith WITH US..." Many of these Jews (as was apparently common) thought they were the only ones who were Gods chosen people. Peter here is addressing that they to are 'elect or chosen' by God as well.
The contexual object of these verses (and specifically this verse) is NOT about God giving a faith (verb) to be believers but that these who were once Not of God are now by the Righteousness of God (perfect Holiness) ordained unto life, elected unto salvation, or chosen by God to partake of "...this like (same) precious Faith (noun)..." but not as in having Faith (verb). Keep the context brother as I know you hold it as dearly as I do. BTW - Hello agian :wavey: :thumbsup:
I can understand why you Like to quote from Kenneth W.
But also please let others know of some of the critisism that pertain to his work. Good though it is in most respects.
Wikipedia
Criticism
Some critics[6] have charged that in specific instances, Wuest’s translations and commentaries go beyond a strict analysis of grammar and word meaning, and bring preconceived theological and doctrinal considerations into the task of exegesis.
Example [6] from the Wikipedia:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/wuest.html
Anyhoo...
About your statement specifically here:
I will agree with you that it is refering to Gods election (Divine alotment) but I dare say the text nor its context DOES NOT read or allude to God gave us Faith (verb) to believe in Christ. You are bringing a theological view and or construct into this passage and reading it (or into it) with a predetermind bias.
We know 1 Peter was written unto the Jewish believers that were scattered abroad and 2 Peter enlarges that audience to encompass believing Gentiles as well as he does not distinguish this letter as he did the first. We see this also is HOW he refers to those who have believed as "...them that have obtained like precious faith WITH US..." Many of these Jews (as was apparently common) thought they were the only ones who were Gods chosen people. Peter here is addressing that they to are 'elect or chosen' by God as well.
The contexual object of these verses (and specifically this verse) is NOT about God giving a faith (verb) to be believers but that these who were once Not of God are now by the Righteousness of God (perfect Holiness) ordained unto life, elected unto salvation, or chosen by God to partake of "...this like (same) precious Faith (noun)..." but not as in having Faith (verb). Keep the context brother as I know you hold it as dearly as I do. BTW - Hello agian :wavey: :thumbsup:
I would like to also address your contention here.jne1611 said:
No where in scripture does it state that He doesn't. The same verses you use to state NO WHERE... we also state this same ...NO WHERE in opposition of your view.
The point I am making is this; ALL they are, are assumptions on our part as Man who knows nothing of mind of God. Yes, we can postulate according to certain rendering of the texts but do not forget that presupposition is a large part of how we look at those scriptures which allude to 'what' God knew but we have NOTHING substantial wherewith to build a doctrine on it. Only views that help substantiate a system of theology based on conjecture and limited understanding.
Here is an excert from Barnes Notes on the NT. I not sure how Calvinistic (I think a 4 pointer) he is but I believe (if memory serves) he considers himself to be one. Though I like His what he says here with regard to foreknowledge from:
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow—The word used here προέγνω proegnō has been the subject of almost endless disputes in regard to its meaning in this place. The literal meaning of the word cannot be a matter of dispute. It denotes properly to “know beforehand;” to be acquainted with future events. But whether it means here simply to know that certain persons would become Christians; or to ordain, and constitute them to be Christians, and to be saved, has been a subject of almost endless discussion. Without entering at large into an investigation of the word, perhaps the following remarks may throw light on it.
(1) IT DOES NOT HERE HAVE REFERENCE TO ALL THE HUMAN FAMILY; FOR ALL ARE NOT, AND HAVE NOT, BEEN CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON. IT HAS REFERENCE THEREFORE ONLY TO THOSE WHO WOULD BECOME CHRISTIANS, AND BE SAVED.
(2) IT IMPLIES “CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE.” IT WAS CERTAINLY FORESEEN, IN SOME WAY, THAT THEY WOULD BELIEVE, AND BE SAVED. THERE IS NOTHING, THEREFORE, IN REGARD TO THEM THAT IS CONTINGENT, OR SUBJECT TO DOUBT IN THE DIVINE MIND, SINCE IT WAS CERTAINLY FOREKNOWN.
(3) THE EVENT WHICH WAS THUS FOREKNOWN MUST HAVE BEEN, FOR SOME CAUSE, CERTAIN AND FIXED; SINCE AN UNCERTAIN EVENT COULD NOT BE POSSIBLY FOREKNOWN. TO TALK OF A FOREKNOWING A CONTINGENT EVENT, THAT IS, OF FOREKNOWING AN EVENT AS CERTAIN WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST, IS AN ABSURDITY.
(4) IN WHAT WAY SUCH AN EVENT BECAME CERTAIN IS NOT DETERMINED BY THE USE OF THIS WORD. BUT IT MUST HAVE BEEN SOMEHOW IN CONNECTION WITH A DIVINE APPOINTMENT OR ARRANGEMENT, SINCE IN NTHER WAY CAN IT BE CONCEIVED TO BE CERTAIN. WHILE THE WORD USED HERE, THEREFORE, DOES NOT OF NECESSITY MEAN TO DECREE, YET ITS USE SUPPOSES THAT THERE WAS A PURPOSE OR PLAN; AND THE PHRASE IS AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT THE APOSTLE HAD JUST SAID, THAT IT WAS “ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF GOD” THAT THEY WERE CALLED. THIS PASSAGE DOES NOT AFFIRM WHY, OR HOW, OR, “ON WHAT GROUNDS” GOD FOREKNEW THAT SOME OF THE HUMAN FAMILY WOULD BE SAVED. IT SIMPLY AFFIRMS THE FACT; AND THE MODE IN WHICH THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE WERE DESIGNATED, MUST BE DETERMINED FROM OTHER SOURCES. THIS PASSAGE SIMPLY TEACHES THAT HE KNEW THEM; THAT HIS EYE WAS FIXED ON THEM; THAT HE REGARDED THEM AS TO BE CONFORMED TO HIS SON; AND THAT, THUS KNOWING THEM, HE DESIGNATED THEM TO ETERNAL LIFE. THE SYRIAC RENDERS IT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS INTERPRETATION: “AND FROM THE BEGINNING HE KNEW THEM, AND SEALED THEM WITH THE IMAGE OF HIS SON,” ETC. AS, HOWEVER, NONE WOULD BELIEVE BUT BY THE INFLUENCES OF HIS SPIRIT ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OR PLAN OF GOD HIMSELF.
He also did predestinate—See the meaning of the original of this word explained in the notes at Rom. 1:4; see also the Acts 4:28 note; and 1 Cor. 2:7 note. In these places the word evidently means to determine, purpose, or decree beforehand; and it must have this meaning here. No other idea could be consistent with the proper meaning of the word, or be intelligible. It is clear also that it does not refer to external privileges, but to real conversion and piety; since that to which they were predestinated was not the external privilege of the gospel, but conformity to his Son, and salvation; see Rom. 8:30. No passage could possibly teach in stronger language that it was God’s purpose to save those who will be saved. Eph. 1:5, “having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself.” Eph. 1:11, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”
Jarthur001
Active Member
Gordon,
Please to not mix the meanings. There is a "Daily Sanctification "...as you said below.
But this is not salvation. Salvation.."set apart" .."saints"..."a holy people" ...is a one time thing, not daily. (Daily setting apart)...heb 5....like new born babes....we my grow. This is after salvation. Yet the act of becoming a Saint...set apart..unto the Lord is the saving of the elect and this happens one time.
In Christ....James
Please to not mix the meanings. There is a "Daily Sanctification "...as you said below.
GordonSlocum said:
But this is not salvation. Salvation.."set apart" .."saints"..."a holy people" ...is a one time thing, not daily. (Daily setting apart)...heb 5....like new born babes....we my grow. This is after salvation. Yet the act of becoming a Saint...set apart..unto the Lord is the saving of the elect and this happens one time.
In Christ....James
The same charges are laid out on many people, but I would not post any of those if I found them. The exposition Wuest gave on the text in view is a very good one & the old ad Hominem trick will not work on the one who studies what has been said. Glad to see you to.Allan said:
And as to your problem with faith being given. The text is to plain. No controversy there for me.
By the way Hello. I have been out for a while.
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I agree, it was just that You laid out two pages worth of His expository writings it would only be fair to those reading it that they know He has a distinct Calvinist bent that other translators acknowledge concerning his particular rendering of certain scriptures. It was not an ad Hominem when it is a noted fact that his rederings go well beyond a strictly philological exegesis, and enter into the realm of theological exposition. I wasn't trying to degrade him but let others be aware. In fact if you will or would have noted the later part of the sites page you would have seen this:jne1611 said:
Anyway I was not trying to discredit him or you for using, and sorry if that was how it came out.
I have been away as well. I think I have been out for like 2 weeks with little blurps here and there but today is the first time I have really gotten to be apart of here again.
And I realize the text is plain that is why I was showing you that the Faith spoken of there has nothing to do with a God given faith but them being IN the Faith or Christ. The difference is specific as one is a verb and the other a noun.
What have you been doing that kept you out of here, brother?
I have been through a very stressful time with a job that I have been put on. I am dealing with people who do not respect a Christian, fowl language like you would not believe, personal degragredation. I have been mentally put in a hole on this one. I have not been able but to post a few things & really cant think staraight lately. I need strong prayer on my behalf.Allan said:
On a side note. I slid that ad Hominem part in there for the readers and not particularly for you. By reading your posts, I see you study, but a lot of folks who read things in my experience, will not even read the link you posted and draw the conclusion to throw out all that was said just because of the doubt cast on him. Not trying to say you threw his exposition off. I just wanted people to consider that particular exposition which I think is a good one. Bless you Brother!
I personally just came out of a deep depression that I can only equate as one that is spiritual but definately combined work, starting up a church, helping strengthen another AND family with a pregant wife. I was sliding into a hole that I saw no bottom to, and I will say that the Lord my God brought me through it only a week ago. God be praised. So I know in part and maybe only in slight what is going on with you. Forget debate board -jne1611 said:
I will pray for you brother. Even while I type this I am asking for God remove the burden and that despair that so easily tries to beset us be turned away. I pray the Joy of HIS salvation return to your spirit and that the high praises of God well up inside you to the bursting forth of His glory. That God will remove that which is not of Him (whether us or the enemy added) and lead you into His truth for your spiritual growth, renewal when your world seems dim and harsh. God be praised He finds you worthy to partake in the sufferings (though not physical still just as injurous) of Christ. Keep that faith He was so lovingly nurtured in you brother. I will continue to pray for you. May His light so shine in your heart and spirit that you see that solid Rock on which you stand and rest in the peace and safety of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
It is just some of the thoughts from my prayer for you brother. It may sound wierd but it so you can have a snap shot of what I am in pray for.
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