John:6:38-39

[Robert William]

You have Jesus contradicting himself.
What must they do:

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
--They must come to him; they must believe on him.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
--What is the will of God?
That everyone sees (or comes) to the Son, and believes on him.
He is not willing that any should perish.

Joh 6:49-51
(49) Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
(50) This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
(51) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
--They must come to him; they must believe in Him.
This is the commandment that Jesus gave to them. He did not give them a command they could not obey. The plain sense of the Scripture tells us that anyone can come. He will not cast out anyone. He will not turn anyone away. He never, in his entire ministry, turned anyone away.

The doctrine of reprobation is nowhere taught in Scripture.
For that matter, not even the doctrine of election unto salvation is taught in Scripture.
Election is always unto the blessings of Christians or even the service of Christians, but never the salvation of Christians.

DHK, I think the reason you are promoting pelagianism is because you are completely bypassing the fall of man.

RE: Fall of man

SCRIPTURE PROOF
1 Corinthians 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Romans 5:12: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.
2 Corinthians 1:9: Yea, we ourselves had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead.
Ephesians 2:1-3: And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom ye also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Ephesians 2:12: Ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Jeremiah 13:23: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Psalm 51:5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Romans 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good. no, not so much as one.
Job 14:4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
1 Corinthians 1:18: For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
Acts 13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
Proverbs 30:12: There is a generation that are pure in their own eye, And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
John 5:21: For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom He will.
John 6:53: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
John 8:19: They said therefore unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father; if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
Matthew 11:25: I thank thee, O Father Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes.
2 Corinthians 5:17: If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.
John 14:16: (And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you.
John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I think the reason you are promoting pelagianism is because you are completely bypassing the fall of man.

I do not promote Plegianism. I do not bypass the fall of man.
Because I didn't explain the doctrine to you does not mean I don't believe it.
Do I have to teach you all the doctrines of the Bible before you are convinced I believe the Bible???????

Simply quoting a bunch of references doesn't prove much except that you know how to copy and paste.

 

[Robert William]

You have Jesus contradicting himself.
What must they do:

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
--They must come to him; they must believe on him.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
--What is the will of God?
That everyone sees (or comes) to the Son, and believes on him.
He is not willing that any should perish.

Joh 6:49-51
(49) Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
(50) This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
(51) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
--They must come to him; they must believe in Him.
This is the commandment that Jesus gave to them. He did not give them a command they could not obey. The plain sense of the Scripture tells us that anyone can come. He will not cast out anyone. He will not turn anyone away. He never, in his entire ministry, turned anyone away.

The doctrine of reprobation is nowhere taught in Scripture.
For that matter, not even the doctrine of election unto salvation is taught in Scripture.
Election is always unto the blessings of Christians or even the service of Christians, but never the salvation of Christians.

Oh He is willing that many perish, that's why they are perishing, it's not rocket science.

 

[Robert William]

I do not promote Plegianism. I do not bypass the fall of man.
Because I didn't explain the doctrine to you does not mean I don't believe it.
Do I have to teach you all the doctrines of the Bible before you are convinced I believe the Bible???????

Simply quoting a bunch of references doesn't prove much except that you know how to copy and paste.

DHK says man is able to receive the things of God, but scripture says they can't. That's the poison of pelagianism speaking.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[convicted1]

Oh He is willing that many perish, that's why they are perishing, it's not rocket science.

 

[convicted1]

Con1

You have consistently illustrated the frustration that a wrong system of interpretation will bring to a person by these images:laugh:

It is not lack of effort....or sincerity. It is missing the mark:thumbsup:

There's an old saying...'a picture is worth a thousand words'. Saves me time posting them.

'Swing and a miss'!!!

 

[The Biblicist]

You have Jesus contradicting himself.

No, I do not have Jesus contradicting himself, that is merely your opinion and it is an opinion without a true basis.

What must they do:

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
--They must come to him; they must believe on him.

First the word "must" is not found here. He is simply stating the consequences of coming to Him.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. [/
--What is the will of God?

DHK, you are abusing this text by jerking it out context and let me explain why you are. Look at verse 36 and take note at what Jesus said to those he has been addressing.

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Jesus states the CONCLUSION of their interaction with Christ. Their conclusion is exactly opposite of the CONCLUSION described in verse 40. Why? Because they are not "OF ALL" the Father gave to Christ in verses 37-39. The general principle is stated in verse 37-39 "OF ALL" that are given to the Son will be saved. Thus, in direct contradiction of the CONCLUSION of those in verse 36 will be the CONCLUSION in verse 40 "OF ALL" who have been given to Jesus in verses 37-39.

He has just told you who will come and who will be saved in verses 37-39. Now, who do you think those in verse 40 are? Here is a clue, the same ending in verse 39 is the very same ending in verse 40. Here is another clue, since Jesus plainly says that "OF ALL" the Father gives him none shall fail to come and be saved, who do you think then will do what is described in verse 40????? This is the conclusion of "everyone" who have just been described as part of the "ALL" given to Christ in verses 37-39! Here is another clue, verse 40 does not describe the conclusion of those in verse 36 does it????

However, that is not how you apply it is it? No, you jerk it out context and totally disregard the boundaries "OF ALL" and "NONE" and attempt to make it UNIVERSAL in application without any boundaries whatsoever, thus transforming the "OF ALL" given "NONE" shall fail to come into ALL HUMAN BEINGS EVER LIVED so that the Father's will has been transformed into demanding that the Father's will is "NOT ANY" should perish!!! Thus you have completely PERVERTED this text and context to mean what it cannot possibly mean as the Father's will is specifically RESTRICTED as specific number that do in fact come and are saved where you have attempted to transform the whole text to an UNRESTRICTED number "of all" that will not come and be saved. You are confusing two different contexts and two different texts and two different types of God's will (will of purpose that is effectual versus the revealed will of God which is always violated).

Of course, I understand that is what your soteriology forces you to do with scripture - pervert it.

That everyone sees (or comes) to the Son,

You have made another perversion of verse 40 in this statement. It does not say that everyone "sees (or comes)"! Those in verse 36 did see but did not come and "see" cannot be interpreted to mean "or come." It is both "see AND come."

He is not willing that any should perish.

Now you are taking a foreign text and reading it into this context and thus perverting both texts. The perversion is that the "will of the Father" in John 6:37-40 is not the REVEALED will of God but His will of Purpose because "NONE" that he has will in regard to "ALL" will fail to come in John 6:37-40 but it is merely his REVEALED will in 1 Timothy. It is His revealed will that all obey His commandments (including the command to repent and believe) that none sin, that all love each other, but it is self-evident that His revealed will is violated every single minute of every single day is it not? If you can't see the difference in His will of purpose that secures "ALL" to come whereby "NONE" fail to obey that will versus the revealed will that none perish when in fact many will perish, then I cannot help you.

--They must come to him; they must believe in Him.

They "SHOULD" come but that does not mean they WILL come.

This is the commandment that Jesus gave to them. He did not give them a command they could not obey.

"Be ye therefore PERFECT EVEN AS your Father in heaven is Perfectve" - that is found in the imperative mode - a command that he gives! DHK how are you doing with that command????? Yes, he did give a command they could not keep and he plainly tells them "NO MAN CAN COME" but you don't believe Christ do you, as you pit Christ against Christ. Fallen man is responsible for his own condition of inability. He sinned, it is not God's fault he sinned. Therefore, he is responsible for his inability to obey God. So yes, God does give fallen man MANY commands, in fact, fallen man cannot keep ANY OF HIS COMMANDS, NOT ONE (Rom. 8:7) because his heart is at "enmity against God, and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be" but you don't believe that do you?

The plain sense of the Scripture tells us that anyone can come.

There is not one scripture in all of God's word that says fallen man "can" come. Indeed, Jesus bluntly and explicitly says "NO MAN CAN COME." If that were not true then you tell me why the exception clause is needed following that statement???? If what you teach was true no exception clauses would be necessary!

He will not cast out anyone. He will not turn anyone away. He never, in his entire ministry, turned anyone away.

Of course not! But that does not explain WHY and HOW they came to him does it? Isn't the WHY and HOW of it what we are debating?

The doctrine of reprobation is nowhere taught in Scripture.

I don't understand why you are charging me with something you know I do not believe. I have repeatedly told you that scripture nowhere teaches election to damnation - nowhere! So you are preaching to the choir!

For that matter, not even the doctrine of election unto salvation is taught in Scripture.

You are simply wrong - "chosen TO salvation" - 2 Thes. 2:13 Likewise, in Ephesians 1:4 where there is a PURPOSE clause that ends the verse which demands there were "chosen in him" so "that they MIGHT BE holy". So this proves that the prepositional clause in 2 Thes. 2:13 "through sanctification..." is also the purposed conclusion of election as well, as "holy" and "sancitification" refer to the very same thing.

Election is always unto the blessings of Christians or even the service of Christians, but never the salvation of Christians.

Absolutely false! It is the "blessing" of salvation that Epheisans 1:4-13 and 2 thessalonians 2:13-14 is contextually referring to and not service.

 

[Rebel]

DHK says man is able to receive the things of God, but scripture says they can't. That's the poison of pelagianism speaking.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You misrepresent the views of others by throwing out the pelagianism charge. Still, at least pelagianism is much older than the "poison of Calvinism" which was invented in the 16th century and has absolutely zero biblical basis.

 

[The Biblicist]

You misrepresent the views of others by throwing out the pelagianism charge. Still, at least pelagianism is much older than the "poison of Calvinism" which was invented in the 16th century and has absolutely zero biblical basis.

Have you ever heard of Augustine? Calvin and Luther were students of Augustine and he lived long before the 16th century.

Moreover, do you really think making such a wild accusation without providing ANY evidence at all helps your cause?

Yes, I know I put you on my ignore list! and you are back on it again.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK says man is able to receive the things of God, but scripture says they can't. That's the poison of pelagianism speaking.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

 

[DHK]

DHK says man is able to receive the things of God, but scripture says they can't. That's the poison of pelagianism speaking.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Your position is cherry picking verses, taking them out of context and denying what the Word says in doing so--doing anything possible to force Calvinism into the Word when it was unheard of before Augustine came. He is one of the founding fathers of the RCC and you swallow his teachings. Amazing!

What becomes so dreary is having to take the time to refute this over and over again.
Paul was writing to a CARNAL church, a very carnal church.
In chapter one he calls them out for being divisive. He thanks God that he baptized none of them except for a very few. He even tells them that God sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel.

In chapter two, he condemns them for listening to false teachers and compares his teaching to the false teachers.

In chapter three, he tells them that they are CARNAL. He can't feed them with meat, but must continue to feed them with milk because they are still babes in Christ--still CARNAL.

Going back to chapter two:
Verses 12 and 13 refer to the fact that we all as believers have the Spirit of God which enable us to search out the deep things of God, mentioned in verse 10:
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Thus God has given us the Spirit:
1Co 2:12-13
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
--We are able to compare spiritual with spiritual; have the ability to use the Word, to study to show ourselves approved, to study the "deep things of God."

However, the carnal man does not have this ability because he still is a babe in Christ.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--The word "natural" does not necessarily refer to unsaved although it could."
It simply refers to "in the flesh." Anyone can be "in the flesh." Those who are not in the Spirit, are in the flesh. The Corinthians could not understand the deep things of God because they were carnal, that is, "in the flesh."

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
--Paul was spiritual. He could judge all things.
Paul knew the mind of the Lord. Paul said, referring to him and the other apostles, "we have the mind of Christ." He was not referring to the carnal Christians that mostly made up the Corinthian Church.

There were no chapter divisions in the original, so Paul continues:
1Co 3:1-3
(1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

For times in four verses Paul calls them carnal. These were carnal Christians, immature, choosing to make carnal decisions over spiritual. They were still babes in Christ. Instead of following Christ (vs.4), they followed their "heroes," different men.
2:14 refers to the carnal Corinthians not to the unsaved. That is what the context is.
The Corinthians were unable to search the "deep things of God," because they were "in the flesh," "carnal" and were unable to discern the Word of God. It is not referring to the unsaved man. The unsaved man is still able to read a Bible or a tract and understand the gospel.
Why do you think most churches pass out tracts if "they are unable to understand spiritual things"? That is counterproductive isn't it?
Why do many hand out Bibles, gospel of John's, etc. if the unsaved are not able to discern spiritual things?
Do you think there might be any Calvinists among "The Gideons," even when they were a bit more conservative? Why the urgency in getting the Word out to the unsaved if "they cannot are spiritually discerned"?
Your entire position goes contrary to many practices of your own churches.

 

[Robert William]

Your position is cherry picking verses, taking them out of context and denying what the Word says in doing so--doing anything possible to force Calvinism into the Word when it was unheard of before Augustine came. He is one of the founding fathers of the RCC and you swallow his teachings. Amazing!

What becomes so dreary is having to take the time to refute this over and over again.
Paul was writing to a CARNAL church, a very carnal church.
In chapter one he calls them out for being divisive. He thanks God that he baptized none of them except for a very few. He even tells them that God sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel.

In chapter two, he condemns them for listening to false teachers and compares his teaching to the false teachers.

In chapter three, he tells them that they are CARNAL. He can't feed them with meat, but must continue to feed them with milk because they are still babes in Christ--still CARNAL.

Going back to chapter two:
Verses 12 and 13 refer to the fact that we all as believers have the Spirit of God which enable us to search out the deep things of God, mentioned in verse 10:
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Thus God has given us the Spirit:
1Co 2:12-13
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
--We are able to compare spiritual with spiritual; have the ability to use the Word, to study to show ourselves approved, to study the "deep things of God."

However, the carnal man does not have this ability because he still is a babe in Christ.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--The word "natural" does not necessarily refer to unsaved although it could."
It simply refers to "in the flesh." Anyone can be "in the flesh." Those who are not in the Spirit, are in the flesh. The Corinthians could not understand the deep things of God because they were carnal, that is, "in the flesh."

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
--Paul was spiritual. He could judge all things.
Paul knew the mind of the Lord. Paul said, referring to him and the other apostles, "we have the mind of Christ." He was not referring to the carnal Christians that mostly made up the Corinthian Church.

There were no chapter divisions in the original, so Paul continues:
1Co 3:1-3
(1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

For times in four verses Paul calls them carnal. These were carnal Christians, immature, choosing to make carnal decisions over spiritual. They were still babes in Christ. Instead of following Christ (vs.4), they followed their "heroes," different men.
2:14 refers to the carnal Corinthians not to the unsaved. That is what the context is.
The Corinthians were unable to search the "deep things of God," because they were "in the flesh," "carnal" and were unable to discern the Word of God. It is not referring to the unsaved man. The unsaved man is still able to read a Bible or a tract and understand the gospel.
Why do you think most churches pass out tracts if "they are unable to understand spiritual things"? That is counterproductive isn't it?
Why do many hand out Bibles, gospel of John's, etc. if the unsaved are not able to discern spiritual things?
Do you think there might be any Calvinists among "The Gideons," even when they were a bit more conservative? Why the urgency in getting the Word out to the unsaved if "they cannot are spiritually discerned"?
Your entire position goes contrary to many practices of your own churches.

A natural person can't be a babe in Christ, that's why Jesus said to Nicodemus, "ye must be born from above" John 3:3.

 

[DHK]

A natural person can't be a babe in Christ, that's why Jesus said to Nicodemus, "ye must be born from above" John 3:3.

A natural person is simply "in the flesh" which is "a babe in Christ," or one who hasn't grown. You ignore context and haven't replied to the post. That one-liner is an insult.

 

[The Biblicist]

A natural person is simply "in the flesh" which is "a babe in Christ," or one who hasn't grown. You ignore context and haven't replied to the post. That one-liner is an insult.

How can you say that? Paul expressly divides humanity into only two division in Romans 8:8-9. Those who are not "in the Spirit" are explicitly said to be "none of his." The only other option listed are those "in the flesh." There is no third category. Sure, those "in the Spirit" may be operating "after" the flesh and thus "fleshly" in characterization of the maturity, but they are not "in the flesh."

Furthermore, the "natural" man means exactly that. He has had no supernatural birth but only a natural birth. True, the body of the believer remains "natural" simply because it has only experienced a natural birth. But the phrase "in the flesh" NEVER is applied to the regenerate. The term "natural" may be applied to that aspect of the believer that is like the lost "natural" man.

 

[DHK]

How can you say that? Paul expressly divides humanity into only two division in Romans 8:8-9. Those who are not "in the Spirit" are explicitly said to be "none of his." The only other option listed are those "in the flesh." There is no third category. Sure, those "in the Spirit" may be operating "after" the flesh and thus "fleshly" in characterization of the maturity, but they are not "in the flesh."

Furthermore, the "natural" man means exactly that. He has had no supernatural birth but only a natural birth. True, the body of the believer remains "natural" simply because it has only experienced a natural birth. But the phrase "in the flesh" NEVER is applied to the regenerate. The term "natural" may be applied to that aspect of the believer that is like the lost "natural" man.

The natural man is a carnal one, one who acts according to the flesh.
Just because we live in the world, does not give us license to live "according to the world," but many do, and the Corinthians did. That is what the verse was teaching and especially in chapter 3 does Paul point this out.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

But as unto carnal (all' hōs sarkinois). Latin carneus. “As men o’flesh,” Braid Scots; “as worldlings,” Moffatt. This form in ̇inos like lithinos in 2Co_3:3 means the material of flesh, “not on tablets of stone, but on fleshen tablets on hearts.” So in Heb_7:16. But in Rom_7:14 Paul says, “I am fleshen (sarkinos) sold under sin,” as if sarkinos represented the extreme power of the sarx. Which does Paul mean here? He wanted to speak the wisdom of God among the adults (1Co_2:6), the spiritual (hoi pneumatikoi, 1Co_2:15), but he was unable to treat them as pneumatikoi in reality because of their seditions and immoralities. It is not wrong to be sarkinos, for we all live in the flesh (en sarki, Gal_2:20), but we are not to live according to the flesh (kata sarka, Rom_8:12). It is not culpable to a babe in Christ (nēpios, 1Co_13:11), unless unduly prolonged (1Co_14:20; Heb_5:13.). It is one of the tragedies of the minister’s life that he has to keep on speaking to the church members “as unto babes in Christ” (hōs nēpiois en Christōi), who actually glory in their long babyhood whereas they ought to be teachers of the gospel instead of belonging to the cradle roll. Paul’s goal was for all the babes to become adults (Col_1:28).

From A.T. Robertson

 

[Protestant]

For times in four verses Paul calls them carnal. These were carnal Christians, immature, choosing to make carnal decisions over spiritual. They were still babes in Christ. Instead of following Christ (vs.4), they followed their "heroes," different men.
2:14 refers to the carnal Corinthians not to the unsaved. That is what the context is.

This is what the Lord thinks of carnal Christianity:

We visit the market place where Paul preached to the Corinthians. To stand in the midst of the ruins of the church of Corinth and see the pillars, steps and place of public worship where Paul preached, will enhance your understanding and love of Corinthians I, II. http://www.catholicpilgrimagetours.com/An-11–Day-Pilgrimage-to-Greece-and-Turkey-1.html

The Vatican is next.

 

[DHK]

This is what the Lord thinks of carnal Christianity:

The Vatican is next.

Agreed. Carnality; Worldliness--God hates it; He always has:

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

A carnal Christian is as good as the enemy of God. God hates it.

 

[Robert William]

How can you say that? Paul expressly divides humanity into only two division in Romans 8:8-9. Those who are not "in the Spirit" are explicitly said to be "none of his." The only other option listed are those "in the flesh." There is no third category. Sure, those "in the Spirit" may be operating "after" the flesh and thus "fleshly" in characterization of the maturity, but they are not "in the flesh."

Furthermore, the "natural" man means exactly that. He has had no supernatural birth but only a natural birth. True, the body of the believer remains "natural" simply because it has only experienced a natural birth. But the phrase "in the flesh" NEVER is applied to the regenerate. The term "natural" may be applied to that aspect of the believer that is like the lost "natural" man.

Amen +1 That's what I have been trying to show him.

Thanks for some help, it's been a little rough on my new topic lately. http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2205406&postcount=1

 

[Robert William]

The natural man is a carnal one, one who acts according to the flesh.
Just because we live in the world, does not give us license to live "according to the world," but many do, and the Corinthians did. That is what the verse was teaching and especially in chapter 3 does Paul point this out.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

From A.T. Robertson

In 1 cor 2:14 it's not hos sarkinois for natural man, it's psuchikos (soulish).

 

[DHK]

In 1 cor 2:14 it's not hos sarkinois for natural man, it's psuchikos (soulish).

I fully realize that. Have you never acted out of your carnal self?
Or are you spiritual in all that you do--meaning of course that you never sin, have attained entire sanctification.
Beware of the teaching of 1John 1:8,10, before you answer that.

Adam Clarke says this:

But the natural man - Ψυχικος , The animal man - the man who is in a mere state of nature, and lives under the influence of his animal passions; for the word ψυχη , which we often translate soul, means the lower and sensitive part of man, in opposition to νους , the understanding or rational part. The Latins use anima to signify these lower passions; and animus to signify the higher. The person in question is not only one who either has had no spiritual teaching, or has not profited by it; but one who lives for the present world, having no respect to spiritual or eternal things. This ψυχικος , or animal man, is opposed to the πνευματικος , or spiritual man: and, as this latter is one who is under the influence of the Spirit of God, so the former is one who is without that influence.

The apostle did speak of those high and sublime spiritual things to these animal men; but he explained them to those which were spiritual. He uses this word in this sense, 1Co 3:1; 9:11; and particularly in 1Co 2:15 of the present chapter: He that is spiritual judgeth all things.