John 6:44

[mandym]

I am not reformed and this is not about reformed doctrine. There have been some, who I do not remember, on this board that have argued that man has a natural ability to come to God on his own. That faith is found within man. While I am not reformed (Calvinist) I reject such a notion. What do we do with the verse below when we hold that man can come to God on his own:

Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


*Note The topic of discussion is this verse and this verse alone. Please refrain from side tracking this thread.

 

[menageriekeeper]

But Christ also said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me". His death, burial and resurrection is the Father's mechanism for calling a lost world back to Himself.

 

[mont974x4]

In John 6:44 Jesus speaks a simple, but oft rejected truth. No one comes to Christ, and therefore to the Father, unless the Father draws them.


I could not read John and remain in agreement with the teachings of Arminius or Wesley on these issues.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not reformed and this is not about reformed doctrine. There have been some, who I do not remember, on this board that have argued that man has a natural ability to come to God on his own. That faith is found within man. While I am not reformed (Calvinist) I reject such a notion. What do we do with the verse below when we hold that man can come to God on his own:

Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


*Note The topic of discussion is this verse and this verse alone. Please refrain from side tracking this thread.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: very clear.....I believe it , they cannot!

 

[Iconoclast]

But Christ also said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me". His death, burial and resurrection is the Father's mechanism for calling a lost world back to Himself.

As the word of God does not contradict....you need to search for the correct understanding of Jn 12:thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

What do we do with the verse below when we hold that man can come to God on his own:

Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Well, it means just what it says. Only those God draws can come to Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

I am not reformed and this is not about reformed doctrine. There have been some, who I do not remember, on this board that have argued that man has a natural ability to come to God on his own. That faith is found within man. While I am not reformed (Calvinist) I reject such a notion. What do we do with the verse below when we hold that man can come to God on his own:

Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


*Note The topic of discussion is this verse and this verse alone. Please refrain from side tracking this thread.

I have a clarifying question before I answer: Would you consider someone being confronted by the powerful Holy Spirit wrought Gospel, carried by a Holy Spirit indwelled ambassador of God who is making an appeal as if from God to 'be reconciled to Him,' as being 'on his own?'

 

[Skandelon]

Well, it means just what it says. Only those God draws can come to Christ.

Three questions:

1. What do you believe are the means God has chosen to draw men to Himself?

2. Had those means been fully deployed at the time when Jesus said these words? And were some being purposefully blinded from those means at that time?

3. How do you believe John 12:32 ("...I will draw all men...") relates to this discussion?

 

[jbh28]

I am not reformed and this is not about reformed doctrine. There have been some, who I do not remember, on this board that have argued that man has a natural ability to come to God on his own. That faith is found within man. While I am not reformed (Calvinist) I reject such a notion. What do we do with the verse below when we hold that man can come to God on his own:

Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


*Note The topic of discussion is this verse and this verse alone. Please refrain from side tracking this thread.

It means exactly what it says.

Now, I know you said this verse and this verse alone. And of course some can't seem to understand that by jumping 6 chapters later to a different context and different person doing drawing...

But I thought some context would add to the discussion of this one verse.

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(John 6:35-44 ESV)

The passage of course is about that everyone that comes to God will be saved. (oh, this would be a place where God has chosen to save those that come) Over and over again Jesus speaks of people coming/believing. All that come/believe will be "raised up in the last day."
Jesus says, "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him. And i will raise him up on the last day."

Jesus says that all that come will be saved(yay, whosoever will, whosoever will....) but no one will come unless drawn by the father. So no man will ever will to come to God unless he is drawn by the father.

 

[Skandelon]

The whole reason that Calvinists insist there must be an effectual work is because they believe that men are born "Totally Depraved" or totally unable to willingly come to Christ from birth. But a simple survey of the book of John reveals that is NOT the reason Jesus' audience could not believe in him. Read what Jesus said about why his audience, the Jews, could not believe...

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Now, is that a condition from birth common to all mankind? NO. Consider what Paul said when quoting from this same passage in Isaiah:

27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" (Acts 28)

Notice they were NOT born calloused or unable to hear. In fact, Paul tells us exactly what they might have done had they not be hardened: "they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn." Further, he shows that this condition is unique to the Jews because the Gentiles "will listen."

Now, back the John 6. Jesus is speaking to a group of Jewish people who CANNOT come to Jesus because they are being hardened...NOT because they were born in some totally unable condition. Your very premise is flawed which is leading to incorrect conclusions.

 

[Amy.G]

Now, back the John 6. Jesus is speaking to a group of Jewish people who CANNOT come to Jesus because they are being hardened...NOT because they were born in some totally unable condition. Your very premise is flawed which is leading to incorrect conclusions.

Why is it that you don't have a problem with God sovereignly choosing to blind people, but you have a big problem with God sovereignly choosing to un-blind people?

 

[jonathan.borland]

Wesley would not disagree, and that's why he talked about prevenient grace, which was necessary to enable a totally depraved person to fall under conviction and to come to the point of repentance in faith or refusal to repent in continued unbelief.

 

[convicted1]

The verse states exactly what it means. None of us can, or better, will come, until He calls/draws us. But remember this, many called, but few chosen. The called in number far exceeds those who are chosen. Meaning, just because Jesus calls someone, doesn't mean they will humble theirself down, and be saved,

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The verse states exactly what it means. None of us can, or better, will come, until He calls/draws us. But remember this, many called, but few chosen. The called in number far exceeds those who are chosen. Meaning, just because Jesus calls someone, doesn't mean they will humble theirself down, and be saved,

Do you not think that there's a difference between calling someone and drawing him? You can call someone and he may come or he may not. If you draw someone to you, the suggestion is that he comes. Theologians speak of an outward and an effectual call.

Steve

 

[webdog]

Why is it that you don't have a problem with God sovereignly choosing to blind people, but you have a big problem with God sovereignly choosing to un-blind people?

Amy, you should know this already, this is your second go around here

It's the MEANS, not the blinding and the un-blinding. I'm having a hard time understanding how just in a couple weeks you can present a solid, biblical argument in regards to the atonement and scope...and now revert back using the normal cal "pet verses" and not the whole of Scripture

 

[webdog]

Well, it means just what it says. Only those God draws can come to Christ.

...and it doesn't mean those who don't come to Christ were never drawn.

 

[InTheLight]

...and it doesn't mean those who don't come to Christ were never drawn.

Yep, excellent point.

 

[AresMan]

...and it doesn't mean those who don't come to Christ were never drawn.

In the verse, the him that is "drawn" is parallel to the him that is "raised."

 

[AresMan]

But Christ also said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me". His death, burial and resurrection is the Father's mechanism for calling a lost world back to Himself.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
Joh 12:20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
Joh 12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Joh 12:22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The context of John 12:32 is NOT that of a general, ineffectual "drawing" for every individual person in the world. In fact, in vv. 38-40 of the same chapter the writer references prophecies from Isaiah about the many Jews who would not believe.

The context is concerning Jew and Gentile converts (from all nations) vs. the cultural concept of Jewish-only privilege. In John 12 we have the Pharisees making a hyperbolic statement that "the world has gone after him" and among these were "certain Greeks" that sought Him. While Jesus was "a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made to the fathers" the intention of His coming was that salvation would start with the Jews ("to the Jew first") and expand to Samaria, to all Judea, and to the uttermost parts of the earth. Even though Christ told His disciples this in the Great Commission, they did not fully understand that the Gentiles at large would be bona fide "fellow citizens with the saints" and "of the same body" until Paul was converted and God told Peter in his visions that "what God has made clean do not call common."

Far from being a faulty, general "drawing" of every individual person, the "drawing" of "all men" in John 12:32 in context is an effectual drawing of Jews and Gentiles from all nations.

 

[mandym]

The more I see arguments made for this mythical "effectual drawing" the more I am convinced that there is no real support for it scripturally. In order to make this believable one must read into scripture that which is not clearly delineated. Best I can tell it is based more on assumptions made about the sovereignty of God and then scripture is gone to to prove the assumption.