John 6:44

[Amy.G]

Amy, you should know this already, this is your second go around here

My point is that you can't say it's ok for God to blind people but it's not ok for God to unblind people. That makes no sense to me.

It's the MEANS, not the blinding and the un-blinding. I'm having a hard time understanding how just in a couple weeks you can present a solid, biblical argument in regards to the atonement and scope...and now revert back using the normal cal "pet verses" and not the whole of Scripture

What do you mean by the "means"?

I haven't changed my mind on the atonement. I don't know what you mean here.

I guess it seems like I've gone of the cliff, but like I've been saying lately, you can't explain the what and why of everything God does. Is man responsible to believe and repent? Yes. Does God choose who He saves? Yes. Does God open everyone's eyes to the gospel? No. Not only does scripture bear that out, but we see it in our lives with those who have heard the gospel, who even believe God is creator, yet are never saved. The older I get, the more I see this happening.
Paul had to be knocked to his knees and blinded by Christ to be brought to salvation. He was completely convinced in his own mind that Christians deserved death. Jesus opened his mind and heart. Paul had nothing to do with it. Now people like to say, well God only does that with certain people and I say baloney. We do not open our own eyes. You cannot will yourself to believe.

John 6:44 says no man can come to Christ expect that the Father draws him.

That seems simple to me. I don't have all the answers, but scripture says what it says.

 

[jbh28]

I guess it seems like I've gone of the cliff, but like I've been saying lately, you can't explain the what and why of everything God does. Is man responsible to believe and repent? Yes. Does God choose who He saves? Yes. Does God open everyone's eyes to the gospel? No. Not only does scripture bear that out, but we see it in our lives with those who have heard the gospel, who even believe God is creator, yet are never saved. The older I get, the more I see this happening.
Paul had to be knocked to his knees and blinded by Christ to be brought to salvation. He was completely convinced in his own mind that Christians deserved death. Jesus opened his mind and heart. Paul had nothing to do with it. Now people like to say, well God only does that with certain people and I say baloney. We do not open our own eyes. You cannot will yourself to believe.

John 6:44 says no man can come to Christ expect that the Father draws him.

That seems simple to me. I don't have all the answers, but scripture says what it says.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[gb93433]

Jer. 29:13 "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

 

[Amy.G]

Jer. 29:13 "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

2 Thess 2:13 (NASB) But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

 

[AresMan]

The more I see arguments made for this mythical "effectual drawing" the more I am convinced that there is no real support for it scripturally. In order to make this believable one must read into scripture that which is not clearly delineated. Best I can tell it is based more on assumptions made about the sovereignty of God and then scripture is gone to to prove the assumption.

The word for draw (helkuw or "drag") by its very definition means that something is moved from point A to point B. If the object did not go from point A to point B as intended, then the correct term would be try to draw.

Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Does this mean that the disciples did not even put an effort to get the fish? Of course not! They tried to draw the fish. If they had actually drawn the fish, they would be in the ship.

Act 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Paul and Silas could not have been said to be drawn into the marketplace if they did not, in fact, end up in the marketplace.

Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

Does this mean that the jailer wooed the sword, hoping that it would come out of the sheath? No! If the jailer exerted effort on the sword but it did not come out of the sheath, the Scripture would have said that "he tried to draw out his sword, but..."

If something is drawn, it means that it has actually been brought where intended.

Now, let's look at what Jesus said in John 6:44

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said that the Father will draw people to the Son. This means that these people actually come to the Son, NOT that there is an attempt that can fail. The very same people that the Father draws, Jesus will raise up.

Now, as I explained in an earlier post, John 12:32 is NOT talking about a "wooing" of every single individual person in the world. It is talking about Jesus drawing (bringing people to Himself) Jews and Gentiles from every kindred, tongue, nation, and people.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here we have John 12:32 demonstrated!
"If I be lifted up (crucified), I will draw all men unto me."
"Thou wast slain and has redeemed (purchased) people out of every nation."

 

[webdog]

2 Thess 2:13 (NASB) But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You are ignoring the means (through the work of the Spirit AND belief in the truth). Would you say man has believed in the truth "from the beginning"? It would have to using your rendering.

 

[webdog]

My point is that you can't say it's ok for God to blind people but it's not ok for God to unblind people. That makes no sense to me.

That would depend on what you mean by blinding and un-blinding.

What do you mean by the "means"?

The what, how, why's.

I haven't changed my mind on the atonement. I don't know what you mean here.

If you haven't, then John 6:44 using your understanding is completely illogical.

I guess it seems like I've gone of the cliff, but like I've been saying lately, you can't explain the what and why of everything God does. Is man responsible to believe and repent? Yes. Does God choose who He saves? Yes.

Agreed...but he Has decreed to choose believers for salvation, not to choose who believes.

Does God open everyone's eyes to the gospel? No. Not only does scripture bear that out, but we see it in our lives with those who have heard the gospel, who even believe God is creator, yet are never saved. The older I get, the more I see this happening.

You are starting from the end and working backward. Romans 1 explains why people's eyes are not opened to the Gospel.

Paul had to be knocked to his knees and blinded by Christ to be brought to salvation. He was completely convinced in his own mind that Christians deserved death. Jesus opened his mind and heart. Paul had nothing to do with it. Now people like to say, well God only does that with certain people and I say baloney.

Why is it baloney? Were you knocked down and audibly heard God's voice? Were you one of the 12 chosen? God DOES and HAS chosen some for unique reasons and in unique ways. To equate everyone's salvation to this is foolish.

We do not open our own eyes. You cannot will yourself to believe.

As you know, I believe this already, as do all non cal's.

John 6:44 says no man can come to Christ expect that the Father draws him.

...and like I said already on this thread, the verse does NOT say those who don't come to Christ were never drawn or presented the truth.

That seems simple to me. I don't have all the answers, but scripture says what it says.

As does this Scripture, spoken to non-elect pagans...
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Scripture is quite clear ALL men are drawn.

 

[Van]

Truth Matters

Why is it that you don't have a problem with God sovereignly choosing to blind people, but you have a big problem with God sovereignly choosing to un-blind people?

God choosing to blind people to prevent them from seeking God through faith and trusting in Jesus is found in several different passages of scripture. OTOH, Irresistible Grace is shown to be false doctrine in several passages of scripture. Truth matters to those who trust in scripture alone, and not in the clever stories of men.

 

[jbh28]

You are ignoring the means (through the work of the Spirit AND belief in the truth). Would you say man has believed in the truth "from the beginning"? It would have to using your rendering.

No, the passage says we are saved thought the work of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

[Van]

Simple logic. No one can come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father. Does this say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus? Of course not. But this absurd assertion is made over and over by Calvinists. It is mind boggling. It is like saying no one can come to my house unless they go through the gated entrance. Does that mean everyone that goes through the gated entrance goes to my house, rather than the hundreds of other homes in the community. Many are called and drawn by the gospel, but few are chosen and given to Jesus.

 

[HankD]

I am not reformed and this is not about reformed doctrine. There have been some, who I do not remember, on this board that have argued that man has a natural ability to come to God on his own. That faith is found within man. While I am not reformed (Calvinist) I reject such a notion. What do we do with the verse below when we hold that man can come to God on his own:

Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


*Note The topic of discussion is this verse and this verse alone. Please refrain from side tracking this thread.

This passage teaches that those who come to Christ have been sent to Him by the father.

However it does not tell us what criteria the father used in selecting those whom He draws to Christ.

Everyone (C and A) would say "because of their faith".

The difference would be in how that faith got there.
By their personal choice or the decree/election of God

HankD

 

[jonathan.borland]

2 Thess 2:13 (NASB) But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Yes, this verse teaches that the means of election to salvation is the Holy Spirit and our faith. It was in accordance with his good will to include our faith enabled by the Holy Spirit in the equation. The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world (not just the ones who will believe), and a few verses earlier we see that those who perish do so because they refused to love the truth and so be saved (2 Thess 2:10). God does his part (convict the world) every time; man is left to accept or reject the truth revealed by the gracious working of the HS. If he accepts the truth God receives all the glory for saving the wretch; if he rejects it the man receives all the blame because he rejected the truth revealed by the HS. Faith on our part is not a work or merit; it is its antithesis.

 

[webdog]

No, the passage says we are saved thought the work of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

How is that contrary to what I said

 

[Don]

Simple logic. No one can come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father. Does this say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus? Of course not. But this absurd assertion is made over and over by Calvinists. It is mind boggling. It is like saying no one can come to my house unless they go through the gated entrance. Does that mean everyone that goes through the gated entrance goes to my house, rather than the hundreds of other homes in the community. Many are called and drawn by the gospel, but few are chosen and given to Jesus.

I think the better analogy is, no one can come into my house except through the door.

But any analogy is flawed, because they're usually colored by our pre-conceived ideas.

 

[Winman]

Jesus directly showed that God calls and invites men but many refuse to come.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Jesus here compared his Father to a king that invited folks to his son's marriage. God does not speak idle words, he sincerely wanted these folks to come. In fact, after they first refused, he sent his servants again to invite those that were bidden.

The Calvinist teaching of a "general call" is pure baloney and not supported by a single verse of scripture. God means what he says, when he invites someone to "come" he means it.

If God did not sincerely invite these folks, then why was he angry when they refused to come?

And this is the ridiculous way Calvinism portrays God, as a God who would call people to come to him, but does not sincerely mean it, and then he gets angry when they do not come.

This would make God a liar, to say "come to my son's wedding" when he had no intention of regenerating them so they could come (in the Calvinist view).

I am amazed that any intelligent person can believe such nonsense.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, this verse teaches that the means of election to salvation is the Holy Spirit and our faith. It was in accordance with his good will to include our faith enabled by the Holy Spirit in the equation. The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world (not just the ones who will believe), and a few verses earlier we see that those who perish do so because they refused to love the truth and so be saved (2 Thess 2:10). God does his part (convict the world) every time; man is left to accept or reject the truth revealed by the gracious working of the HS. If he accepts the truth God receives all the glory for saving the wretch; if he rejects it the man receives all the blame because he rejected the truth revealed by the HS. Faith on our part is not a work or merit; it is its antithesis.

God does it all...not His part.

the anti thesis to works....is grace....not faith.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Skandelon]

Why is it that you don't have a problem with God sovereignly choosing to blind people, but you have a big problem with God sovereignly choosing to un-blind people?

Who said I had a problem with God sovereignly choosing to un-blind people? That is what he did to Paul, isn't it?

Israel was already self-hardened. God simply sealed them in their already hardened condition, with the exception of a remnant of Jews who were chosen to ensure that God's purpose in electing Israel would stand. He sovereignly picked out some messengers, which He has always done, to ensure his appeal to be reconciled when to all the world....which is what Israel was chosen for from the beginning.

 

[Skandelon]

In the verse, the him that is "drawn" is parallel to the him that is "raised."

The faith response is presumed. We both believe that those drawn do choose to follow Christ, right? This verse doesn't address that though, it just assumes it. But to presume that all who are drawn will respond in faith is an argument from silence, especially when we know that once Christ is raise up he will not only be drawing the apostles (the remnant of Israel) but he will send them into all the world as ambassadors to make an appeal to be reconciled, thus drawing ALL MEN to himself.

It's interesting how Calvinists will use the words of Christ PRIOR to his sending the powerful means for drawing all men to himself to prove that God doesn't draw all men to himself.

 

[Skandelon]

2 Thess 2:13 (NASB) But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

If read individualistically, as is typical with Western Christians who think everything is about them individually, this verse appears to mean one thing, but when read corporately, as was often the way the Jews of that day addressed each other, it is understood as intended.

"But we (Jews) should give thanks to God for you (Gentiles)"

Remember this is the BIG debate of Paul's day and many Jews are hating on the Gentiles and even those who are letting the Gentiles in are trying to make them like the Jews first.​

"brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you (Gentiles) from the beginning for salvation.."

The gentiles are being told they are not loved and chosen of God and Paul is saying that WE, the Jews, should Thank God for you (Gentiles) because it has been his plan all along to save the Gentiles too. Paul is the apostles to the Gentiles and he is the one defending their calling and election. These versus must be understood in that historical context, not within the Cal/Arm debate of today.​

 

[jbh28]

How is that contrary to what I said

Glad it wasn't. I must have missed your point then. What were you trying to say?